Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

It's so nice that they're explaining the thought process behind each of the changes, these are definitely shaping up to be some of the best in years.

[QUOTE=gigazelle;52383025]They combat a lot of playstyles that are frustrating to go up against, though. Plus the new advantages on a lot of these weapons sound like a lot of fun.[/QUOTE] Still, I'm expecting a loooooot of whining from R/TF2 Personally though I'd like to see how these changes affect the gameplay and the new weapons (probably just for pyro) that are going to be implemented.

[QUOTE=SirWubbles;52383029]It's so nice that they're explaining the thought process behind each of the changes, these are definitely shaping up to be some of the best in years.[/QUOTE] PRECISELY. They actually took the time to explain why they thought the way they thought, even if someone disagrees with it, we can go back and look at why a change was made.

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52383032]Still, I'm expecting a loooooot of whining from R/TF2 Personally though I'd like to see how these changes affect the gameplay and the new weapons (probably just for pyro) that are going to be implemented.[/QUOTE] I've seen complains about those ambassador changes going "This adds RNG to a competitive game".

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52383038]PRECISELY. They actually took the time to explain why they thought the way they thought, even if someone disagrees with it, we can go back and look at why a change was made.[/QUOTE] They've expressly stated that these changes are going to be subject to community feedback too, so if some of these changes are really bad, they're probably likely to be fixed faster than what we've seen in the past.

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;52383042]I've seen complains about those ambassador changes going "This adds RNG to a competitive game".[/QUOTE] and contra's been complaining to me for the past 15 minutes. not sure why i added him really

even though i hate the ambassador with a raging fury, I can agree that the nerf is in a strange direction, i would've just made it so instead of critting on headshot, you'd do 300% damage, so there would still be damage falloff from long ranges

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52382962]notes: the pocket pistol is suddenly meta hordes of atomizer scouts no more shame in using the guillotine or sandman really mantreads roamer meta? long time ago i recommended that vitasaw should get the uber-on-death after hitting with it instead of being passive, looks like that happened gru might be unbanned now, but disciplinary action will still be banned fists of steel wasn't nerfed that badly, it makes it more of an escape tool now instead of a "sit on last to stall enemy team" which is a dumb niche now, after the short circuit is altered, we might not have any engy bans.[/QUOTE] That's all I ever used the FoS for to begin with, so you won't have any complaints from me.

Somehow they managed to make Your Eternal Reward even worse than it was before. All it needed was another decent upside, like perhaps +20% faster attack rate.

[QUOTE=BarJarHinks;52382720]Balance blog post is out! [url]http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=30147[/url][/QUOTE] My time is now [quote=Panic Attack] 50% faster switch speed 50% more pellets 30% less damage Fires a wide, fixed shot pattern (regardless of server settings) Shot pattern grows with successive shots (e.g. while holding down the attack button), but resets after you stop firing or reload[/quote] Don't be fooled by the alluring 50% extra pellets, this amounts to 5% more damage after the damage penalty is taken into account. The accuracy is in the toilet though, so a meatshot will actually deal [i]less[/i] damage overall unless your target is wide enough to have every shot hit them (we're assuming spread around the width of a Heavy). In every other situation it's a nerf, and the growing spread nerfs successive shots even further making it worse for anything other than point-blank combat. Overall this trades prolonged-combat damage for a quick switch and static bullet spread (which actually does make a difference for consistency in casual play, but is meaningless in competition as fixed spread is part of the game rules along with no crits). This does buff it to be an actual option for Soldier, but it completely destroys the gimmick that works modestly well with Engineer, Pyro, and an occasional shotgun Heavy. Verdict: Nay [quote=Ambassador]First-shots are no longer perfectly accurate. Bullet-spread is instead reduced by 50%. This makes head shots less reliable at long range, while still very viable at close and medium-range.[/quote] I appreciate the intent, but the implementation leaves something to be desired as it'll sometimes do the trick and sometimes make an inaccurate shot land a headshot. I'd much prefer consistency for users on both ends of the barrel. Verdict: Reconsider approach Suggestion: The Back Scatter already implements tech that determines the gun's effectiveness based on range, the Ambassador can be given similar treatment such that there's a hard cutoff where headshots will cease to deal 102s while maintaining its accuracy and making it consistent where players are safe from being headshot by some chucklehead who sneaked around to the backfield and started taking potshots at people who are standing in relative safety. [quote=Dead Ringer] Ammo kits and dispensers no longer refill the Spy's cloak meter [/quote] Only took 8 years to give the Dead Ringer the Cloak & Dagger treatment like people have been clamoring for the entire time. Overall he may need a slightly faster regen rate to compensate for the DR no longer being an obnoxious shield, but this is cathartic for players who've been around for the stupid thing's entire lifespan. Verdict: Fucking finally [quote=Your Eternal Reward] Removed: "Cannot disguise" penalty Added: Non-kill disguises require (and consume) a full cloak meter Backstab-based disguises are still free Increased cloak drain rate by 50%[/quote] The most debilitating aspect of the knife is now gone, making it a competent chainstab knife should the other team not be paying attention. I would still want for the invisible corpses to cease making thud sounds when they hit the floor, as that can and will give away a Spy's spree. The increased cloak drain rate is going to kill this thing though. You'll basically have no mobility to work with, disguises themselves are only useful in passing glances and right before your kill. Lacking the ability to cloak around will destroy any flexibility that the knife user may want to have, it'd shoehorn them into extremely passive Cloak & Dagger play, which isn't fun for anyone involved. Verdict: Reconsider the downside [quote=Sandman] Long-range ball impacts no longer remove the victim's ability to fire their weapon (but the victim is still slowed) We've updated achievements that were looking for disarmed players Max range balls now do 50% increased damage (from a base of 15) The flight time required to trigger the "max" effect has been reduced by 20% Ball regeneration time reduced to 10 seconds (from 15)[/quote] Annoying, but not debilitating and a free kill. This is a better change on a weapon that has unanimously been considered to be a blight on the game's track record. Single-hit slows are tolerable in moderation. It's significantly less obnoxious than a gluegun laser beam that is Natascha or the disarming of the current Sandman. Verdict: Good [quote=Bonk! Atomic Punch]Apply a slow effect to the player after phasing wears off, based on the amount of damage they absorbed From -25% at low damage, to -65% at 200+ damage Lasts 5 seconds[/quote] Makes it so a random chucklefuck who wanted to go break the teleporters and harass fresh spawns into an easier kill. Ultimately it doesn't address how powerful it is with sentry destruction until after the Sentry is already destroyed. He can get killed in the resulting skirmish with that self-imposed slow, at least. You can shut down a Spy, you can eat a charged Cow Mangler shot, there's not much Engineer can do about a Scout pressing 2, M1, and then running into the sentry for it to get mopped up. Verdict: Only addressed the annoying aspect of it without taking into account how it pretty harshly it undoes Engineers. For a class that's meant to get shut down by Engineer, that can be a problem. [quote=Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol] +15% firing speed Up to +7 hp per hit (from +5) -25% clip size (9 shots)[/quote] Hey it's something. Unloading to refill over half your health is pretty significant, especially since it comes out faster. Lacking the fall damage resistance is a loss but it could always be repurposed into something else that could make that more practical, since double jump does exactly that anyway. Verdict: Good. [quote=Crit-a-Cola] Added: Each attack while active adds Marked-For-Death debuff for 5 seconds (does not stack) Removed: Marked-For-Death when effect expires Removed: +25% move speed bonus Removed: +10% damage taken penalty[/quote] Hey it's v1 Crit-a-Cola, just the minicrits don't start until Scout pulls the trigger. Verdict: Finally [quote=Atomizer] Triple-jump is now only possible while the bat is deployed Removed: Self-inflicted damage when triple-jumping Removed: Attack speed penalty Added: Melee attacks done while airborne mini-crit Added: 50% deploy time penalty (to prevent quick-switch by-pass) Reduced damage penalty vs players to -15% (from -20%) [/quote] All things considered, it's still a phenomenal option for getting into position before an encounter or when disengaging. It's just no longer an oppressively-powerful anti-soldier/demo/sniper tool that makes you pay a pittance of health to avoid 100+ damage. The minicrit while airborne is a gimmick but doesn't define the weapon's true strength. Verdict: Good [quote=Flying Guillotine] Removed: Crit vs stunned players Removed: Mini-crits at long range Added: Long range hits reduce recharge (by 1.5 seconds) Distance considered "long range" reduced by half of the previous value when determining mini-crits[/quote] Already a decent weapon, albeit seldom used in serious play due to it being a projectile and not being able to strike buildings. It's still solid, but the recharge rebate doesn't really make it standout. None of you will understand why I find this change to be hilarious though. Personally I'm in favor of all hits reducing recharge rather than just ranged hits. Verdict: Good, but could be a little better. [quote=B.A.S.E. Jumper] Reduced amount of air control while deployed by 50% Removed the ability to re-deploy the parachute once retracted (until the player lands on the ground again)[/quote] I actually said that verbatim not even a few days ago. Will have to see how significantly the loss of air control impacts the weapon to whether it goes into the trash or just into the gimmick pile. Verdict: Good but concerned [quote=Mantreads] +75% push-force reduction now includes airblast Added: +200% air control when blast jumping[/quote] Will have to see how that amount of air control affects jumps before passing a final verdict. The push force reduction including airblast also indirectly includes the Force-a-Nature and Loose Cannon since they use the same code. Verdict: Pending [quote=Darwin's Danger Shield] Afterburn immunity +50% fire resist [/quote]Dude, what. Please no, Pyro already had difficulty getting past a good Sniper's sightline back when the Cozy Camper made him immune to flinching from fire. Now it's the exact same problem, just now Pyro also deals less damage in general to the guy should he close the distance. Verdict: NO. [quote=Razorback] Added: -100% overheal penalty Added: Shield regenerates after 30 seconds[/quote] GOOD. Now a sniper with the combo is easier to gank as he's not nearly as insulated from threats, it also means that Sniper can counterpick the other Sniper rather than just relying on Spy. Only issue is that it didn't address how good Sniper is when protected by a sentry, in fact this buffed him since he can just hide for 30 seconds to get another backstab shield (which might actually become a bigger problem as it'll materialize on the Sniper's back as the Spy is swinging the knife should he have unfortunate timing.) Verdict: Ditch the regen and we're talking. [quote=Vita-Saw] Added "Organs" collecting concept (... you know, hit someone with a saw, and out pops a vital organ which you then take, and hold). Each hit with the Vita-Saw harvests the victim's organs (shown on the HUD). Added: On-death, preserve 15% ubercharge per Organ harvested. This effect caps at 60%.[/quote] I'm still not fond of uber retention, but at least this requires active input to be useful. Unfortunately it won't be seeing any actual use unless the Kingpin of Melees: the Ubersaw is knocked down a few pegs. Verdict: Eh, but okay. [quote=Crusader's Crossbow] Ubercharge gain rate reduced in the same way that the Medigun's healing (and therefore, Ubercharge build rate) is - based on the last time the target was in combat Reduced by a third when 1 - 10 seconds outside of combat, and scales up to normal over 10 - 15 seconds[/quote] No arguments here. But it'll still be the absolute best Medic primary since it helps him do his job better, even if it's only slightly less better now. Verdict: Going in the right direction, but perhaps power creep for the other options might be acceptable. [quote=All Miniguns]Changes: The 1-second damage and accuracy penalty now applies to the first second of spun-up time, whether or not the Heavy is firing. Previously, the 1-second damage penalty would only be removed after 1 second of firing. Accuracy and damage penalties now reset when the Heavy spins down, rather than when the Heavy stops firing. This means if you stay spun-up beyond one second, and fire in bursts, damage and accuracy will remain at 100%[/quote] I'm still not fond of the accuracy/damage ramps, but at least this is done in such a way that the penalty is nothing if the Heavy knows his surroundings well enough to spin up and hold his ground for an incoming threat. Verdict: Good [quote=Gloves of Running Urgently] Added: Max-health is drained while item is active (-10/sec), and regenerated while holstered Health will regenerate only the amount drained while active - minus any damage taken during that time Each time the gloves are deployed, the drain rate is accelerated for a brief period of time Removed: Marked-For-Death effect while active Removed: 25% damage penalty [/quote] It's a good change, he has to be more mindful of his approach in such a way that his max health regenerates by the time it's time to fight rather than just mindlessly running into the thick of things with full overheal and somehow still coming through just fine. Hilariously this gives an indirect buff to the Dalokahs Bar, you're welcome Exor. Verdict: Good [quote=Eviction Notice] Added: Max-health is drained while item is active (-5/sec), and regenerated while holstered. Health will regenerate only the amount drained while active - minus any damage taken during that time. Removed: 20% damage vulnerability[/quote] Still GRU-lite. Same sentiments regarding it. Verdict: Good [quote=Fists of Steel] Added: 40% overheal reduction while active Added: 40% healing rate penalty while active[/quote] Good approach to addressing how it becomes a problem specifically when a Medic is involved. Verdict: Good [quote=Rescue Ranger]Ranged repairs now consume metal (at a 4-to-1 health-to-metal ratio, e.g. repairing 60 damage costs 15 metal)[/quote] This nerf was a bit warranted and overdue. Metal economy is important to Engineer's balance, and things that allow him to ignore that economy are going to be reigning champions, especially if he's firing at a building while healing at a Dispenser. Now he'll at least chew through his metal when using it towards metal-related things. Verdict: Overdue, and begrudgingly warranted. I'll see you nerds in the [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809]Weapon Fixing Megathread[/url]

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52383064]Somehow they managed to make Your Eternal Reward even worse than it was before. All it needed was another decent upside, like perhaps +20% faster attack rate.[/QUOTE] I use it as my main spy knife right now, but if those changes are actually implemented, I'll likely switch to another knife. Trading a cloak drain for a disguise is pretty clever. But increase cloak consumption rate is a 100% deal breaker for me.

I'm seeing a lot of salt over these changes, I think they're good for the most part! While some are too similar now (Eviction Notice/GRU), questionably useful (Darwin's Danger Shield), or even unecessary (BASE Jumper), I think ultimately they're all good. Valve really wanted to shake up the meta and encourage people to try something new ingame. I'm really looking forward to the update, it's going to be interesting. [B][U]EDIT:[/U][/B] So uh, I wasn't expecting to get so hype at the [B]ＭＡＮＴＲＥＡＤ ＢＵＦＦ[/B] Holy shit they put it at around the same level as the Gunboats, which is all I could ever ask for. I'm sure Gunboats will always be superior if you do a lot of jumping, but fewer/crazier jumps with goomba stomp sounds way too fun. Really looking forward to this

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52383032]Still, I'm expecting a loooooot of whining from R/TF2 Personally though I'd like to see how these changes affect the gameplay and the new weapons (probably just for pyro) that are going to be implemented.[/QUOTE] Denizen of /r/tf2 here. Most of the complaints originate from (A) from Amby/DR spies and (B) /r/bisonmasterrace.

Can someone explain why the danger shield got anti-fire buffs? Explosive resistance would be a bit more useful to a sniper no?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52382962]notes: the pocket pistol is suddenly meta hordes of atomizer scouts no more shame in using the guillotine or sandman really mantreads roamer meta? long time ago i recommended that vitasaw should get the uber-on-death after hitting with it instead of being passive, looks like that happened gru might be unbanned now, but disciplinary action will still be banned fists of steel wasn't nerfed that badly, it makes it more of an escape tool now instead of a "sit on last to stall enemy team" which is a dumb niche now, after the short circuit is altered, we might not have any engy bans.[/QUOTE] I feel like I'm one of the only scouts that only uses the guillotine with the wrap assassin. It's fun as hell to do hit and runs with both of them, not to mention I've just used the two so long now that I have like unnatural aim with it.

These changes are pretty great for the most part, very cognisant of community feedback. Sweet.

I can't wait to try out the new YER, sounds like fun.

[QUOTE] ... give the weapon a unique design space to occupy[/QUOTE] If they really wanted each weapon to have a unique space to occupy, they would've kept the claymore how it was originally and stopped making the eviction notice Diet GRU™

Just for your information bois [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/61bb3Q7.png[/IMG] If you wanna submit something serious, use the website. If the image above doesn't show up, you can find it here -> [url]http://imgur.com/a/0WbvB[/url]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52383065] Dude, what. Please no, Pyro already had difficulty getting past a good Sniper's sightline back when the Cozy Camper made him immune to flinching from fire. Now it's the exact same problem, just now Pyro also deals less damage in general to the guy should he close the distance. Verdict: NO.[/QUOTE] I actually kinda welcome this change. I don't think as many people will be equipping it, and those who do, will do so because the other team has a REALLY good pyro harassing them. Downside to this is that it has no advantage to 8 other classes in the game, and that it's not a SMG or jarate. It's a niche secondary, and it is good at performing well in that niche.

[I][B]Yo where my Sun-On-A-Stick buffs at?? [/B][/I] [t]https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/slenderfortress/images/0/0f/Sun-On-A-Stickman.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161211205650[/t]

[QUOTE=sarge997;52383113][I][B]Yo where my Sun-On-A-Stick buffs at?? [/B][/I][/QUOTE] More changes are to come, I'm guessing they showed us these now since they're the most impactful/controversial ones.

[QUOTE=riki2cool;52383122]More changes are to come, I'm guessing they showed us these now since they're the most impactful/controversial ones.[/QUOTE] Sun on a stick: Alt fire: [B]EAT THE STICK TO BECOME GOD[/B]

[IMG]https://puu.sh/wpRgJ/3017aa9b41.png[/IMG] "The Boston Fat Bash-er" Seems like an interesting change, but I fear for modes like Highlander, medics will tell their heavies to not use it. (Gotta buff that demo) Then again, it could encourage people to run it as its basically an uber pump.

Am I reading it wrong or are they really saying that crit-a-cola is going to let scouts inflict marked-for-death at range with no downside?

I mean, if a Pyro is as close to a Sniper as that he might as well whip out a shotgun or melee weapon. All it really does really is stop flare harassment. That's fine. I'm glad the Sniper shields are addressed in at least such a way that it makes them way weaker and less like an obnoxious counter-counter. Still wish they'd take out the Razorback's backstab immunity altogether, but with no overheal it's unlikely you'll see it much at all. The regen is iffy, but in current gameplay Spies just completely ignored (or Ambassadored) Razorback Snipers and never ever went for the breaking of the shield, so there might not be much of a difference there.

[QUOTE=riki2cool;52383122]More changes are to come, I'm guessing they showed us these now since they're the most impactful/controversial ones.[/QUOTE] I hope not... [b]BISON?[/b]... I think its safe to assume they are leaving us in the dark about anything related to Pyro for now...

[QUOTE=gigazelle;52383103]I actually kinda welcome this change. I don't think as many people will be equipping it, and those who do, will do so because the other team has a REALLY good pyro harassing them. Downside to this is that it has no advantage to 8 other classes in the game, and that it's not a SMG or jarate. It's a niche secondary, and it is good at performing well in that niche.[/QUOTE] The problem is with the ease of using the Scorch Shot. With any other flare gun, the Pyro has to hit the Sniper directly (or very close to his body in the case of the Detonator). If a Sniper can't deal with that, maybe he should be paying attention to whomever is in his sight-line and [i]shoot him[/i]. Pyro has trouble dealing with good Snipers, there's simply no viable option the Pyro has other than to hope the Sniper is distracted, hope the Sniper is on fire and misses, or go an entirely alternate route.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52383140]Am I reading it wrong or are they really saying that crit-a-cola is going to let scouts inflict marked-for-death at range with no downside?[/QUOTE] It's applied to Scout, not the others.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52383140]Am I reading it wrong or are they really saying that crit-a-cola is going to let scouts inflict marked-for-death at range with no downside?[/QUOTE] Every time you deal damage it puts a Mark of Death [i]on the Scout[/i], not their enemy.