Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Punchy;52384460]it was never fun, and it still isn't. Training mode is a more captivating use of my time than sniping on 2fort.[/QUOTE] 2fort needs a complete redesign if they want that map to be considered even remotely decent in general lol. Huntsman sniper is probably more effective in that map with how tight a lot of it's hallways are, making dodging arrows a bitch lol.

My main gripe with the blogpost is valve has surprisingly decent insight upon the issues of some items, but they then proceed with a change that doesn't follow their train of thoughts. For instance - "the rescue ranger has 2 big bonuses", well okay then just split it? Instead of making it crappy for engis who don't really want to use the teleport function. Or how they drone on about the crossbow being vastly superior, and yet all they did was some puny tweak to a feature that was uncalled for in the first place (uber shot). The Mantreads will still remain useless even if we can strafe with it better. Although the forced knockback resist is nice, it's still terrible compared to anything else soldier has in secondary. Not to mention pocket pistol being an upgrade to stock now, and the atomizer that somehow wants you to jump at people to minicrit them with it (??)

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52384558] For instance - "the rescue ranger has 2 big bonuses", well okay then just split it? Instead of making it crappy for engis who don't really want to use the teleport function. [/QUOTE] I actually really like the idea for splitting the rescue ranger, it does feel too powerful and I can see something like removing the teleport function and passing it on to a rebalanced pomson (remove uber and maybe cloak drain) being a good solution.

[QUOTE=Infernox-;52384038]My point exactly. Once the ball hits, you slow down to a crawl. And due to the cleaver's fast speed, the scout has a high chance of hitting ya, especially if you two are close to one another.[/QUOTE] "Here let me hold you almost still so I can aim better"

I'm wondering if the changes are going to affect the robots in mvm. It would change the game with robots such as the giant fists of steel robot and the bonk robots.

[QUOTE=housejojo06;52384612]I'm wondering if the changes are going to affect the robots in mvm. It would change the game with robots such as the giant fists of steel robot and the bonk robots.[/QUOTE] yes it will. GRU bots will be useless and so will bonks / giant bonks. Probably alot more I can't think of right now.

I honestly think that the speed nerf is a bit TOO much on the bonk. Like a speed down is a good idea, but [U]65%[/U] for 5 seconds is like a fucking death sentence if you're getting around a biggish fight and/or a sentry nest for flanks/sneaky caps.

Maybe it's just me but the Blog Post kinda makes it sound like we are still a month or so away of the Update, not our optimal 2 weeks. "We're going a little deeper on some classes this time (e.g. Scout) and not as deep on others (e.g. Demoman)" Makes it sound like there is another Blog Post to come, but when is unknown. The first sentence calls it a "sneak peak" which might aswell imply that the rest won't be showed as a Blog Post, but just in the Update itself and these were "the controversial changes" they thought of. Then obviously there is the part that says they are still working on them, that there is a lot that isn't done or tested yet. I don't know dog. I do want Blackavar's prophecy to be true so badly, but all this wording scares me.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52384034]Hey, you're right. If the medic isn't actively healing the sniper, the spy could just go point-blank and 2 shot bodyshot his back with stock, especially on spots like Viaduct rock. Or, he could use the enforcer and 2 shot from a more decent range. Ambassador is an option still, too. There's no reason to use razorback anymore, it seems. If you can quickly dispatch of the snoip with your gun weapon as spy, why bother stabbing? I had the idea with overheal before, and I was really happy about it being implemented. But now, it feels like it's broken the weapon to uselessness. The only downsides are that you won't get the benefits of YEAR/Kunai/BE. (You can get BE boost on a poke) [B]Edited:[/B] Obviously it protects from chainstabs[/QUOTE] I think you misunderstand the relationship between spy, sniper, and the ugly thorn between them that is the Razorback. Sniper can be either an overplayed annoyance in casual, or the metagame-defining powerhouse that he is in competitive depending on the skill of the player, with the distinction of being the one true long-range power in TF2 and a linear skill range that allows him to exist anywhere between the two, and at the extreme upper end be borderline base-breaking to the game's midrange combat meta. And what's ostensibly one of the main checks to that ridiculous power? The Spy. Similar in being casually-overplayed but far worse off in class quality, one that is beaten by basic awareness, communication, and is constantly forced to trade it's life for a 1:1 pick regardless of the skill setting. And then you have the razorback. A weapon that cheaply disrupts the cornerstone of this class relationship, for the virtually nonexistant downside of not being the SMG. In fact, people often say the SMG's downside is that it's not the razorback. "But just use the revolver!" You say? The revolver doesn't allow you to swiftly dispose of 4 gibus snipers all lined up and criminally unaware of their surroundings, or a over-agressive competitive one who's playing on the front lines with a sentry by him and otherwise out of his element- mistakes that the spy's very design exists to punish, but can't due to a block of wood that debases how the class was designed, and passively, without any effort. And that's the thing. Medics [I]do[/I] constantly keep a combo sniper topped off on health. That's one of the points of running that strategy is so that he can take more heals, forcing the enemy to either do so themselves, or find some other way to mitigate the health advantage it provides. Good luck trying to revolver down an overhealed combo sniper in competitive. That play might work in iron or the newbie mixes, but any competent team will call the spy/call for spy time before he gets in range. The only thing this overheal nerf does, is cause highlander snipers to question whether they expect their team to be able to deal with the spy or not, whether that's worth having the additional health. Many higher level snipers have been seen trading the razorback for the cozy camper anyway, as the teams have the coordination to shut down the spy with how valuable the sniper is at those levels. As i said earlier, nobody overheal-tanks the 4th gibus sniper in pubs anyway, so that downside might as well not exist there. So there you have it. A nerf, that while needed, only effects a tiny part of TF2 as a game, and potentially not very much at that, and yes, [B]a buff[/B] that makes a weapon which shouldn't exist as it does in the first place even better at defeating one of the most needed counters in the game, on a class that otherwise has very few weaknesses other than itself. Apologies for the novel, but hey, this is balance feedback and discussion.

A lot of interesting changes, I am very confused how the Eternal Reward supposedly works now though the Heavy's changes don't seem bad at all imo

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52384680]a novel for a non-competitive player.[/QUOTE] You don't understand. You misinterpreted my statement. I realise the Razorback change was necessary. I play competitive, alright, I know these things. But the change allowed the spy to go up to any sniper and 2 shot him regardless in 1 single second. He would never be overhealed. Before: Sniper is ~185, in combo, camping rock, there is no way you'll ever get him with the Revolver. Also has Razorback. Complete spy immunity. After: Sniper is 125, able to be 2 shot in 1 second. No need to stab unless you think the sniper has godlike reflexes,(amby way easier to react to), you'll choke on a standing target or if you think they're going to spycheck in that 1 second. Extra: Sniper without Razorback in combo - 185 HP, cannot be revolvered. Notice the difference? Sniper is now not countering nearly as much if he's in the combo, reducing the effectiveness of the weapon as a whole, since you're buying just one second (+immunity to chainstabs). The "just Revolver him" applies when the sniper is alone. When he's not alone, he has 185~ hp, impossible to kill almost. That is, until the "fix" to the weapon. [B]Edited:[/B] I realise the change was intended to be to encourage enemy sniping, but in the end spy can suicide bomb the sniper just as well with his firearm. The idea was good to me, when I thought of it back in my day, but no, it doesn't really work unless they implement it in an other way.

Oh my good gosh these changes are nothing short of amazing. It's clear the TF2 Team have really been thinking about how to balance these weapons. I can only hope that the Direct Hit is also going to be on the list of changes eventually as being killed as a light class with full health in one rocket still sucks.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52384672]Maybe it's just me but the Blog Post kinda makes it sound like we are still a month or so away of the Update, not our optimal 2 weeks. "We're going a little deeper on some classes this time (e.g. Scout) and not as deep on others (e.g. Demoman)" [/QUOTE] I think they're talking about their balances in general for this update but it's not 100% clear if they mean for the update or if they're going to do another blogpost. [QUOTE=Ace of Butts;52384736]A lot of interesting changes, I am very confused how the Eternal Reward supposedly works now though [/QUOTE] YER now lets you disguise without getting a kill but it takes away all your cloak when you do it, so you still want to get as many back stab disguises as possible. The increased cloak drain rate seems a little harsh but paired with the L'Etranger it will probably be okay.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52384778]You don't understand. You misinterpreted my statement. I realise the Razorback change was necessary. I play competitive, alright, I know these things. But the change allowed the spy to go up to any sniper and 2 shot him regardless in 1 single second. He would never be overhealed. Before: Sniper is ~185, in combo, camping rock, there is no way you'll ever get him with the Revolver. Also has Razorback. Complete spy immunity. After: Sniper is 125, able to be 2 shot in 1 second. No need to stab unless you think the sniper has godlike reflexes,(amby way easier to react to), you'll choke on a standing target or if you think they're going to spycheck in that 1 second. Extra: Sniper without Razorback in combo - 185 HP, cannot be revolvered. Notice the difference? Sniper is now not countering nearly as much if he's in the combo, reducing the effectiveness of the weapon as a whole, since you're buying just one second (+immunity to chainstabs). The "just Revolver him" applies when the sniper is alone. When he's not alone, he has 185~ hp, impossible to kill almost. That is, until the "fix" to the weapon. [B]Edited:[/B] I realise the change was intended to be to encourage enemy sniping, but in the end spy can suicide bomb the sniper just as well with his firearm. The idea was good to me, when I thought of it back in my day, but no, it doesn't really work unless they implement it in an other way.[/QUOTE] Ah yes. That makes a bit more sense. Although you did say there was no reason to run the razorback anymore, which as I mentioned about its use in pubs devoid of overheal that isn't exactly the case, since the weapon is functionally the same, in fact better thanks to the buff from these changes. Also, a normal overheal gives a player 150% above their max health, so its rational to assume a 100% penalty to that would leave the sniper with at least some health to be buffed. Unless they're describing the quick-fix's attribute, which is called "max overheal", not " overheal penalty ". If the sniper can't be overhealed at all, then yeah that's a good point, but I don't think that's the case, as -100% attributes are rarely absolutes (like the fists of steel, etc.) The problem still remains of the weapon unduly affecting the class relationship, which is something the nerf only addresses in far too narrow of an environment.

Really didn't expect the TF2 team to release a blog post showing a preview of the upcoming changes, it's nice to see them being more communicative and transparent with us I can't help but wonder if the update is closer to launch than we think

Even though the probability of Valve reneging on their changes to the Sandman is exiguous at best, it is slightly amusing seeing all the people defending stun mechanics on Reddit. "Casual game" does not necessarily imply we should maintain a discordant mess of a product that fails to deliver any sort of equilibrium. If a certain mechanic deprives the player of influence over his fate in a scenario that's nigh-unavoidable, that reduces the likelihood of said player deriving gratification from the product. This is common sense game design.

I still cant believe the Sandman went from "Barely used but fun/annoying to use" to "Why even use this now" in a single hypothetical patch.

How is slowing down your target not useful? Are you afraid of enemies that can shoot back? Usually there's this concept called "skill" that can help you there.

I watched the video on B4nny's youtube channel about the weapon re-balance blog post. He had gotten a list early and was in contact with the TF2 team and dropped a few interesting tidbits: Bonk had an additional stat on the change list that got sent to B4nny that he was very displeased with, sounds like B4nny convinced Valve to change it since it's not on the list. He doesn't say what the extra stat was. B4nny is trying to get Valve to buff the needleguns - says maybe we have to wait for the medic class pack for this (Not sure if he accidentally let slip a potential upcoming update he knows about though he probably meant to say the Heavy class pack). Says Valve didn't want to buff heavy minigun until they figured out how to deal with the GRU and Eviction Notice.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52384863]How is slowing down your target not useful? Are you afraid of enemies that can shoot back? Usually there's this concept called "skill" that can help you there.[/QUOTE] If I wanted to slow my enemies down, I wouldn't be playing scout. A sandman ball to the back of the head should not slow a enemy down for .4 seconds. We've survived almost a full decade with it, and unless your some pub rando with the shooting/positioning ability of a fish, a normal sandman scout should be easy pickings.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52384879]If I wanted to slow my enemies down, I wouldn't be playing scout. A ball to the back of the head should not slow a enemy down for .4 seconds.[/QUOTE] the slower the enemy, the easier it is to meat shot them in a sense. But it seems like a weapon would benefit running away more by crippling the enemies ability to keep up with you. There is potential situational use, it's just not a full time weapon you can run now.

If you're playing Scout, then you don't need an incapacitated enemy either. Of course, that's granted you're adroit enough to kill lucid opponents. And are you honestly attempting to apply real-world logic to a cartoon shooter? Survived a full decade? I've loathed that piece of trash for years, and there's no reason why Heavy in particular should be rendered entirely ineffective because Scout decided to use some crutchy unlock. If Heavy can counter Scout, then tough--you don't need your magic fix because you're being beaten. I guess Demoman should get a shotgun too so he can counter his counter; it isn't fair, after all, that Scout can easily kill him!

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52384885]If you're playing Scout, then you don't need an incapacitated enemy either. Of course, that's granted you're adroit enough to kill lucid opponents. And are you honestly attempting to apply real-world logic to a cartoon shooter?[/QUOTE] Are you seriously going with the "it's not real life" reason for a argument The Sandman has always been able to stun/stop people, and removing said stun/stop for the sake of "but cleavers/6s" is a dumb idea. Not all guns need to be balanced around a gamemode only a few hundred play. It would be like if out of nowhere valve finally decided to revamp the flare gun so it was the only one that gets the mini crit Flare Combo, because people where complaining about the puff and sting.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52384835]Also, a normal overheal gives a player 150% of their max health, so its rational to assume a 100% penalty to that would leave the sniper with at least some health to be buffed. Unless they're describing the quick-fix's attribute, which is called "max overheal", not " overheal penalty ". If the sniper can't be overhealed at all, then yeah that's a good point, but I don't think that's the case, as -100% attributes are rarely absolutes (like the fists of steel, etc.)[/QUOTE] There's no doubt in my mind that "[I]-100% overheal penalty[/I]" means "no overheal". It might be helpful to give it a name similar to the Quick-Fix's attribute though, as you sort of mentioned. Also 150% minus 100% leaves you with 50% of MaxHP, I don't really see how you can overheal someone [I]below[/I] their MaxHP.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52384892]Are you seriously going with the "it's not real life" reason for a argument The Sandman has always been able to stun/stop people, and removing said stun/stop for the sake of "but cleavers/6s" is a dumb idea. Not all guns need to be balanced around a gamemode only a few hundred play. It would be like if out of nowhere valve finally decided to revamp the flare gun so it was the only one that gets the mini crit Flare Combo, because people where complaining about the puff and sting.[/QUOTE] Cleaver was probably the least of their worries when it came to changing the Sandman. The stun effected was hated ever since the weapon was implemented by the majority of the player base, both casual and competitive lol.

[QUOTE=starblaster64;52384895]There's no doubt in my mind that "[I]-100% overheal penalty[/I]" means "no overheal". It might be helpful to give it a name similar to the Quick-Fix's attribute though, as you sort of mentioned. Also 150% minus 100% leaves you with 50% of MaxHP, I don't really see how you can overheal someone [I]below[/I] their MaxHP.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't you be overhealed for an amount equal to 50% above your max HP? Which is still a real number, and not a negative value? I don't know where you got negative value from, since overheal adds health.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52384892]Are you seriously going with the "it's not real life" reason for a argument The Sandman has always been able to stun/stop people, and removing said stun/stop for the sake of "but cleavers!" is a dumb idea. It would be like if out of nowhere valve finally decided to revamp the detonator so it was the one that gets the Flare Combo.[/QUOTE] Yes, that's right, I'm making that argument; realism is subordinate to game mechanics in [I]Team Fortress 2[/I]. Merely because a mechanic has precedent over a long period of time does not preclude it from drastic changes for the sake of fairness. If anything, that's an indictment of Valve's fecklessness over those years--something I'm glad to say it appears they've finally rectified. I don't mean to be churlish, but are you perhaps a tad livid over an element you formerly enjoyed being altered? That's happened to me countless times over the course of this game's lifespan, so I'm sure you'll learn to live with it as I have. I for one aren't going to shed any tears for players that miss their practically skilless stun combos.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52384911]Yes, that's right, I'm making that argument; realism is subordinate to game mechanics in [I]Team Fortress 2[/I]. Merely because a mechanic has precedent over a long period of time does not preclude it from drastic changes for the sake of fairness. If anything, that's an indictment of Valve's fecklessness over those years--something I'm glad to say it appears they've finally rectified. I don't mean to be churlish, but are you perhaps a tad livid over an element you formerly enjoyed being altered? That's happened to me countless times over the course of this game's lifespan, so I'm sure you'll learn to live with it as I have. I for one aren't going to shed any tears for players that miss their practically skilless stun combos.[/QUOTE] Dude we've been playing for the same amount of time. I know what balance changes your talking about, but none of them have taken out a straight up taken out a major mechanic that's been in the game for the almost the last TEN YEARS. This is probably the only thing I've been really noticeably miffed about in terms of the balance changes (Well except the "new and improved" Vitasaw and Bonk, which are just really bad ideas for fixing the two tbh)

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52384907]Wouldn't you be overhealed for an amount equal to 50% of your max HP? Which is still a real number, and not a negative value? I don't know where you got negative value from, since overheal adds health.[/QUOTE] Your original post said: "normal overheal gives a player 150% of their max health" I interpreted what you meant as: you can be overhealed [I]up to[/I] 150% of your MaxHP, which is correct as the default maximum overheal amount.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52384921]Dude we've been playing for the same amount of time. I know what balance changes your talking about, but none of them have taken out a straight up taken out a major mechanic that's been in the game for the almost the last TEN YEARS. This is probably the only thing I've been really noticeably miffed about in terms of the balance changes (Well except the "new and improved" Vitasaw and Bonk, which are just really bad ideas for fixing the two tbh)[/QUOTE] Again, just because Valve was too inept or negligent to address something that's been problematic since day one does not mean it shouldn't be done now. As the old adage says, better late than never! And if you truly are a veteran, then perhaps it's time to finally hone some Scout skills so you no longer have to rely on infuriating stun mechanics to secure kills. I wouldn't hesitate to embrace any core changes to the functionality of the Natascha if it meant hoisting it into relevance. Remove its ability to slow for all I care, it's been gimped so much that it's practically worthless at this point anyway.