Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=lateguy;52385346]Still, using the disguise kit can be done while cloaking and takes no risk to do. Only thing i can imagine YER being useful for is chain-stabs.[/QUOTE] It's useful for taking out sentries on dustbowl, that's for sure. But hey the weapon is completely silent when working with it. you can just backstab someone and clock right afterwards, by the time that teammate inform his team you already disappeared.

I can't believe they made up a brand new Pyro countering item.

The fact that this took so much time to get posted and that this is a work in progress makes me think we won't see signs of this update until December at least.

What should you even use the DR for now? It's pretty much useless.

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52385415]What should you even use the DR for now? It's pretty much useless.[/QUOTE] good riddance.

Seeing these changes is quite pleasing. Heavy not getting further nerfed into the dirt is a sight for sore eyes. Danger Shield being basically the "I don't like flares" isn't too bad. Considering this is an unfinished list, there's still the matter of Pyro's changes not yet listed, or whatever new weapon(s) may appear in the update for the firebug. But I have a feeling they have a reason for making it so anti-Pyro. Perhaps they're hoping to make Pyro more mobile and thus more capable of even reaching Snipers, hence giving them an option to go toe-to-toe with one easier? I'm giddy at the idea of Pyro mobility buffs.

I was on a bus when the blog post went online, captured my thoughts on the phone independently of what was happening here. Skimming the thread now, it seems I'm just gonna be repeating other people's points anyway, but here goes. Panic Attack: It seems like it'd actually be godly for finishing people off, maybe even viable as a primary for fatscout. Despite the huge damage nerf, 50% extra pellets+wide, fixed spread might make this a more reliable, albeit less powerful scattergun. If the values are set right, this is the pocket soldier's new go-to sidegrade. Amby: I think I'm more or less fine with how they intend for this to work, Beggar's has the same downside and you can airshodden with it at medium range no problem. Just seems weird that they'd make amby the least accurate revolver all of a sudden, might be hard for some to keep in mind that this is the only primary where the first shot isn't perfectly accurate. Dead Ringer: This thing has been UP since a few nerfs ago, and it's getting yet another nerf. I suppose data doesn't lie, people still don't realize how inferior it is and will use it for the not-dying gimmick till the end of time. Not sure if another nerf is going to convince them, but here's hope it will, even though even at this point the thing isn't all that useful already. YER: Disguises are pretty useful, especially the very convincing ones that YER can make, but they'll never be anywhere as good as outright invisibility, hence I feel this tradeoff is even more harsh than before. Also, unless I missed something YER still has the problem with making the very distinct ksht+thud sound when you stab people, very noticeable once you train your ears, pretty much disqualifying the weapon's main strength (stealth kills) against above average opponents. Sandman: Generally good changes, but I don't get the damage bonus on long shots. Now your almost zero damage is 50% less almost zero, yay. Bonk: Not sure if it needed nerfs, but I suppose now at least it has counterplay. I don't remember the last time I saw an enemy Scout bonk past and didn't think "well this boi is fucked" as he charges closer and closer towards our spawn and his invincibility wears off. I guess now he's double fucked, good hustle. Pocket Pistol: It's interesting how they talk about not wanting to make burst damage weapons, and then they make this into a burst damage pistol with healing. To elaborate - higher firerate+lower clip = no need to track the target for as long at a time. Where's the catch? Crit-a-cola. When do you drink crit-a-cola and not shoot people right after? When you do now you're marked for 5 seconds, while the effect only lasts for 8. I don't really get the idea, sounds to me like just mark on death while active. Maybe if you drink the thing and realize there's no one to shoot, and someone jumps you you won't get minicrit...? Sounds like they're trying to make chess out of shooting people with minicrits, and not quite pulling it off. Atomizer: Good change with having to wield it to get the bonus, but the minicrit gimmick is both incredibly cheap and kinda useless. I mean, haven't we learned from all those other crit gimmicks like Soda Popper or axtinguisher? Why reward Scout for jumping? It's a Scout melee and therefore useless, yes, but the principle here isn't balance. Getting rewarded with crits/minicrits for doing nothing special is just stupid and unfun. Flying Guillotine: My favorite scout weapon, absolutely not minding this change. The crit gimmick here was kinda fun to try and pull off, but it didn't add anything to the table and was kinda bad to be on the receiving end of. The core of the weapon is still there - a practical alternative to pistol. It's great that I can keep using it for that purpose. Base Jumper: Fair enough. Mantreads: Not seeing this becoming a serious weapon at this pace, but at least it's kinda less bad now. I'll have to actually play and see what kind of change the increased air control really brings, but I'm not holding my breath - even if it homed in on the enemy by itself, the goomba stomps just aren't that useful next to a well-aimed rocket. Maybe the air control will be useful for other things, though. I welcome with open arms any and all middle fingers to airblast. DDS: Well there we go, the item is now nerfed to oblivion. Least used item in the game go. These stats that laser-focus a single weapon of a single class to hard counter are just horrible. Case in point: equip jarate, get the same advantage this weapon brings, plus like 100 other uses of piss. Razorback: This now went from always-comp-never-pubs to pretty much the exact opposite. No item that actively reduces teamwork is going to be used in comp, unless it's really fuckin op on its own which razorback really isn't - comp snipers equip it because they have nothing better to put in the secondary slot, so they at least get the spy protection. Now it's overwhelmingly not worth since those overheals actually helped them against other snipers, which are their actual main counter. Above average pub snipers aren't ever getting any heals anyway so the tables have turned here a bit, now if they can react to the spy on time they don't have to make the trek back to base for a new 'back. Jarate is still heaps better and more versatile in this environment, though. Vita-saw: Now it's kinda like an ubersaw that allows you to keep the charge after death. That's a gamechanger for sure. I suppose the removal of the passive effect is enough on its own to get the weapon unbanned in comp, which is great news. Personally I can see this being the new ubersaw - 25% uber on hit isn't as good as guaranteed 15% uber after death, especially since good medics are kinda counting on dying at pretty much any point. Crusader's Crossbow: tbh I had no idea this problem existed, since when can this thing build uber? And why? I'd just get rid of that, sounds dumb. Heavy Primaries: Backpedalling hard on the ramps I see, now it sounds like they're pretty much irrelevant. Which is good, mind. GRU: So after 10 seconds of running, heavy is down 100hp+ regardless of heals? Is it just me or does that sound like an actual interesting tradeoff? Eviction Notice: Isn't it like this is a meme weapon from a meme land? And nothing is really being done to it in this regard? Oh well. FoS: Not sure if this is a good enough weapon to warrant more nerfs without meaningful buffs. I do equip it, but only because GRU is such an absurdly good weapon that I just can't use it with good conscience. Since GRU is balanced, I'm not gonna bother with FoS. For the record - the nerf would be good if FoS actually worked as advertised and allowed you to escape tight spots or generally move around under enemy fire without taking too much damage. GRU does this job much better since it makes you harder to hit in the first place and reduces the window during which you're taking damage. Rescue Ranger: This is my favorite engie weapon to use, and among the least favorite to play against. The repairs are just too good. If my math is correct, the metal cost is similar to that of wrench, but still a quarter less expensive - maybe we should go all the way and make it cost the same, if not a bit more. Wouldn't really nerf anything else about the weapon.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52384680]The only thing this overheal nerf does, is cause highlander snipers to question whether they expect their team to be able to deal with the spy or not, whether that's worth having the additional health. Many higher level snipers have been seen trading the razorback for the cozy camper anyway, as the teams have the coordination to shut down the spy with how valuable the sniper is at those levels.[/QUOTE] No, the overheal penalty makes it so Sniper will ALWAYS be one-shot by the enemy Sniper. The new Razorback trades defense against enemy Snipers (full medic buff of 185) for defense against Spies. [editline]21st June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Drury;52385496] Razorback: comp snipers equip it because they have nothing better to put in the secondary slot, so they at least get the spy protection. Now it's overwhelmingly not worth since those overheals actually helped them against other snipers, which are their actual main counter. Above average pub snipers aren't ever getting any heals anyway so the tables have turned here a bit, now if they can react to the spy on time they don't have to make the trek back to base for a new 'back. Jarate is still heaps better and more versatile in this environment, though.[/QUOTE] In Highlander at least (it's banned this season in ugc for good reason), Razorback is THE secondary to use. With your whole team around you (product, ashville, etc), a Spy CANNOT hurt you if you have the Razorback on. Therefore the only counter to you is Sniper (Pyro in some instances, but now we have DDS for that). But thanks to the Medic's buff, it might take a bit of effort for that Sniper to get you. Now, the Sniper has no trouble murdering you. you guys all need to play like, 10 games of 6v6 and highlander. go find a place to do that

I've been thinking about the GRU changes, if they go through and assuming the Dalokos Bar doesn't get changed, the bar could be used to temporarily hold off the max health drain for 4 or 5 seconds. Imagine the situation being a Heavy wants to cross a small open area, so hides behind a corner, eats the bar, and covers the distance with not as much or even any max health lost.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52385512]No, the overheal penalty makes it so Sniper will ALWAYS be one-shot by the enemy Sniper. The new Razorback trades defense against enemy Snipers (full medic buff of 185) for defense against Spies. you guys all need to play like, 10 games of 6v6 and highlander. go find a place to do that[/QUOTE] ummm afaik spies are a non-issue next to snipers? so this isn't really a great tradeoff?

Interesting thing to note about any change that says healing or overheal penalties that a lot of weapons are getting. To a casual medic this might seem like a negative but something not a lot of people know is that when healing under 142.5% of the patients max health, you will be building uber quickly. So any time there is a healing or overheal penalty like for example the fists of steel, you can forcefully build uber quickly. If the healing target is 142.5 % health or more it will take double the time to get uber. With the razorback you will always build uber fast.

If the next update is centered on pyro, why he wasn't talked about on the post. Is it a secret? Are there only the network fixes? Or he just wasn't mentioned? I don't know, but if the update is about the pyro, it would make sense having the most number of fixes for him on the post for feedback. Just my thoughts

[QUOTE=gronfort;52385575]If the next update is centered on pyro, why he wasn't talked about on the post. Is it a secret? Are there only the network fixes? Or he just wasn't mentioned? I don't know, but if the update is about the pyro, it would make sense having the most number of fixes for him on the post. Just my thoughts[/QUOTE] I believe because the update is about him/her, it will be saved for the next blog post. The blog post did indicate that not all the changes were shown.

Was it just me or was Halloween mode enabled on all valve servers for like, thirty minutes before disapearing about 6 hours ago?

thinking more about it, I'd say the YER still wouldn't be all that powerful if the cloak penalty wasn't there, the disguise consuming cloak is a great idea but it's not that big of a buff to justify such a huge downside if the mantreads change doesn't make it viable, it'll be even more known as trolldier's secondary of choice, we can have weapons just for messing around for the DR, while I don't feel like it needed a nerf, this change is probably too much, maybe change it so you can only fill up to 50% or 70% of your cloak with metal, the reset has to be regenerated normally, or just give it a faster recharge time

[QUOTE=Drury;52385496] DDS: Well there we go, the item is now nerfed to oblivion. Least used item in the game go. These stats that laser-focus a single weapon of a single class to hard counter are just horrible. Case in point: equip jarate, get the same advantage this weapon brings, plus like 100 other uses of piss. [/QUOTE] Wrong. The DDS is a PITA to deal with, and it's a good riddance that a free equipable "sniper quickscope counter" has been removed. Nothing of value was lost.

So how long do you think we'll have to wait for the next set of balancing changes to be announced? Will there even be another set, or will we just see them in the Update? I'd tip on the rest of the balancing to next week and then the Update on the 6th.

about the new panic attack: >50% more pellets >30% less damage valve still doing the same shit where the stats cancel eachother out. why god why.

[QUOTE=quake84;52385658]Wrong. The DDS is a PITA to deal with, and it's a good riddance that a free equipable "sniper quickscope counter" has been removed. Nothing of value was lost.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying they shouldn't have nerfed it, but this is one of the worst ways of going about it. [editline]21st June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Snowshoe;52385689]about the new panic attack: >50% more pellets >30% less damage valve still doing the same shit where the stats cancel eachother out. why god why.[/QUOTE] I thought this at first, but I assume the advertised wide fixed spread pattern isn't the basic 3x3 grid with the extra pellets going down the same slots like with i.e. FaN. It's more likely something like 4x4/5x5 pattern or something like that. The pellets get spread more evenly, meaning the weapon is more reliable at short range. Just an assumption though.

Both the YER and DR changes make it seem like the L'Etranger will get an indirect buff because that cloak meter is so much more important now. I wonder how they'll balance that.

[QUOTE=Tinker;52385716]Both the YER and DR changes make it seem like the L'Etranger will get an indirect buff because that cloak meter is so much more important now. I wonder how they'll balance that.[/QUOTE] Yea, they really seem with these rebalances that they're trying to encourage people to use item sets. I wonder if they will bring back items sets again with at least weapons in the Pyro Update.

I'm glad about the Sandman nerf, but I wish it went further. Honestly, most of the time I'd rather temporarily give up my weapon than my ability to move. I'd love to see the weapon become more about having a projectile capable of non-trivial damage (which is kind of a big deal on a melee weapon I think), than the "stun." Like what if getting beaned just temporarily shut off directional damage indicators for the victim, maybe accompanied by a "ringing in the ears" sound- not enough to drown out other sounds of course, and then dial back the downside a bit? Like it's disorienting, but doesn't stop your muscles from working.

[QUOTE=Paradox_cg;52385577]I believe because the update is about him/her, it will be saved for the next blog post. The blog post did indicate that not all the changes were shown.[/QUOTE] yeah, that's what i thought. But do we any confirmation for another blog post for pre-changes ? [QUOTE]Added: +200% air control when blast jumping[/QUOTE] what does this do exactly to the gameplay, you can turn around faster or what ?

[QUOTE=gronfort;52385806]yeah, that's what i thought. But do we any confirmation for another blog post for pre-changes ? what does this do exactly to the gameplay, you can turn around faster or what ?[/QUOTE] That and it you get a bit more momentum in your jumps

[QUOTE=Tinker;52385716]Both the YER and DR changes make it seem like the L'Etranger will get an indirect buff because that cloak meter is so much more important now. I wonder how they'll balance that.[/QUOTE] If the DR is trash (I mean, more trash than usual) people will not start using it in conjunction with the Etranger, they will simply stop using it. They wanted to nerf its spamming and gunspy capabilities (that's why they also nerfed the amby) but the nerf really doesn't touch that. What it does instead is making the watch absolutely useless for actually doing spy things. If you're just taking potshots at people from mid\long range and the dr gets triggered, you can just run back and wait for it to recharge while you take safer shots from even further away. But imagine instead you were trying to play like an actual spy, that is, getting behind enemies and stabbing them, the DR is absolutely useless at that. Before, you simply triggered it, used the cloak to get in some position, recharge it, and do your stuff. But now you have to wait it to recharge, or even worse you just go and act without cloak. What's the upside of using it over the invis watch? At least with the invis I can go into cloak whenever I want, it's not loud as hell, and it can last up to a FUCKTON with the etranger. The truth is that the DR will always either be shit or op as long as Valve doesn't bother fixing its concept. The original idea of the DR is: - Subpar cloak (short, noisy) + Higher survivability + Fool your enemies The "Fool your enemies" part stopped working just about instantly, not only because people simply became wary of it but because there are at least half a dozen way to tell the spy you killed is not actually dead. So people simply relied completely on the survivability, and then that got nerfed. However in exchange you got movespeed, so it became - Subpar cloak + Extreme relocation and harassing potential Now that even this is getting nerfed, this is what remains of the DR: - Subpar cloak

Sorry if this has already been said, but will there be another post or directly the update? The feedback seems pretty positive

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52385906]If the DR is trash (I mean, more trash than usual) people will not start using it in conjunction with the Etranger, they will simply stop using it. They wanted to nerf its spamming and gunspy capabilities (that's why they also nerfed the amby) but the nerf really doesn't touch that. What it does instead is making the watch absolutely useless for actually doing spy things. If you're just taking potshots at people from mid\long range and the dr gets triggered, you can just run back and wait for it to recharge while you take safer shots from even further away. But imagine instead you were trying to play like an actual spy, that is, getting behind enemies and stabbing them, the DR is absolutely useless at that. Before, you simply triggered it, used the cloak to get in some position, recharge it, and do your stuff. But now you have to wait it to recharge, or even worse you just go and act without cloak. What's the upside of using it over the invis watch? At least with the invis I can go into cloak whenever I want, it's not loud as hell, and it can last up to a FUCKTON with the etranger. The truth is that the DR will always either be shit or op as long as Valve doesn't bother fixing its concept. The original idea of the DR is: - Subpar cloak (short, noisy) + Higher survivability + Fool your enemies The "Fool your enemies" part stopped working just about instantly, not only because people simply became wary of it but because there are at least half a dozen way to tell the spy you killed is not actually dead. So people simply relied completely on the survivability, and then that got nerfed. However in exchange you got movespeed, so it became - Subpar cloak + Extreme relocation and harassing potential Now that even this is getting nerfed, this is what remains of the DR: - Subpar cloak[/QUOTE] Is this a bad thing? Maybe the default watch and the CnD will see far more use now and that's good.

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;52385923]Is this a bad thing? Maybe the default watch and the CnD will see far more use now and that's good.[/QUOTE] I don't know about you, but I thought the point of balance updates was to fix the game, not break it further. The DR nerf is just about as ridiculous as the Bison nerf, the difference is that people hate the DR and love the Bison. If they want to destroy the DR completely because it's a failed experiment that's fine by me, they could at least have the decency to make it an invis watch reskin because I really like how it looks.

[QUOTE=Doodle966;52385920]Sorry if this has already been said, but will there be another post or directly the update? The feedback seems pretty positive[/QUOTE] Based on what was said in the blog post, there will be more.

The panic attack needs to be turned into a spas12 kind of shotgun. Used purely for raw burst damage in one shot and forced to reload its entire clip in one slow reload.