Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

sounds OP as a secondary

All kinds of "all-in" weapons I've ever met in any game have either been disgustingly OP or UP. The extreme polarization of their design also polarizes their usefulness.

Yeah. TF2 already has well balanced burst damage on most weapons. Exaggerating burst damage further just leads to more binary outcomes. I.E. hit = kill, miss = you die.

I did not anticipate the mantreads air control could actually make you move much faster. that's pretty comical. I imagine it could do some pseudo bhop. Though the stomp is still 100% terrible and pointless

[url]https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeu6hHjy4oYDuTB2qGDDO4_wnJ21e7rIyb5G9SSuFgd0mkJJQ/viewform[/url] I have done a Survey on the new changes to see the overall mood on some changes which I intend to send to the TF Team as it would likely be good Intel to them. Please be so kind and give it a shot!

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52385998]I did not anticipate the mantreads air control could actually make you move much faster. that's pretty comical. I imagine it could do some pseudo bhop. Though the stomp is still 100% terrible and pointless[/QUOTE] Shield Bashes are more of an afterthought when you're focused on damage resistances and charges. Mantreads aren't the first weapon going down this road.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52386028][url]https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeu6hHjy4oYDuTB2qGDDO4_wnJ21e7rIyb5G9SSuFgd0mkJJQ/viewform[/url] I have done a Survey on the new changes to see the overall mood on some changes which I intend to send to the TF Team as it would likely be good Intel to them. Please be so kind and give it a shot![/QUOTE] It lacks "i agree with everything" option

[QUOTE=kos8bit;52386038]It lacks "i agree with everything" option[/QUOTE] That is still an option, but it involves checking every box for the 11 pages. [editline]21st June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Hell-met;52385998]I did not anticipate the mantreads air control could actually make you move much faster. that's pretty comical. I imagine it could do some pseudo bhop. Though the stomp is still 100% terrible and pointless[/QUOTE] I wonder what the community would think if they made the Mantreads cause 5x falling damage instead of 3x. Maybe it would actually be worth getting the stomps in pubs?

I have a question about the blog post, are these the complete new stats or are they keeping the old stats but and the changes, i.e. Is the panic attack completely different now, or does it have the same firing gimmick with the new damagè penalty

[QUOTE=AD/HD;52386050]I have a question about the blog post, are these the complete new stats or are they keeping the old stats but and the changes, i.e. Is the panic attack completely different now, or does it have the same firing gimmick with the new damagè penalty[/QUOTE] I think words like "added", "removed" and "new" make it pretty obvious It literally says "new design"

[QUOTE=AD/HD;52386050]I have a question about the blog post, are these the complete new stats or are they keeping the old stats but and the changes, i.e. Is the panic attack completely different now, or does it have the same firing gimmick with the new damagè penalty[/QUOTE] It specifies per weapon. If it says "New design:", then those are the new stats. If it says "Changes:", then those are the changes to the existing stats. The Panic Attack has a new design, so the old firing gimmick is gone.

Some of these changes look promising, some look counter-intuitive. Hopefully the Pyro gets the balancing it deserves (esp. the Degreaser).

[QUOTE=slabby;52386072]Some of these changes look promising, some look counter-intuitive. Hopefully the Pyro gets the balancing it deserves (esp. the Degreaser).[/QUOTE] Revert the axtinguisher back to its 1.0 stats please, the degreaser and Pyro's broken mechanics were the problem.

reminder that even if you don't have a problem with any of the balances, you should still message the tf team telling them that they've done a good job at balancing, or else they'll only get messages from whiny players who can only play if they use the sandman or the dead ringer and assume everyone thinks the same

[QUOTE=Fluury;52386028][url]https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeu6hHjy4oYDuTB2qGDDO4_wnJ21e7rIyb5G9SSuFgd0mkJJQ/viewform[/url] I have done a Survey on the new changes to see the overall mood on some changes which I intend to send to the TF Team as it would likely be good Intel to them. Please be so kind and give it a shot![/QUOTE] I'd like some kind of neutral option or some way to explain my positive options. Also you should probably make the options more homogeneous, one of the weapons has a "the change doesn't reach its expressed purpose" or something like that which I would have liked to tick for more weapons, but no weapon other than that one has it.

[QUOTE=RetroFan987;52386043]That is still an option, but it involves checking every box for the 11 pages. [editline]21st June 2017[/editline] I wonder what the community would think if they made the Mantreads cause 5x falling damage instead of 3x. Maybe it would actually be worth getting the stomps in pubs?[/QUOTE] I always felt "wearer never takes fall damage" fits the mantreads pretty well

[QUOTE=rolfum;52386172]reminder that even if you don't have a problem with any of the balances, you should still message the tf team telling them that they've done a good job at balancing, or else they'll only get messages from whiny players who can only play if they use the sandman or the dead ringer and assume everyone thinks the same[/QUOTE] They aren't in an insulated bubble where the only contact to the outside world is through an email form. They can and do venture out to gauge community feedback through discussions they can observe publicly. Probably their most vocal avenues for such are this thread, teamfortress.tv forums, and the top rated non-meme posts on /r/tf2. They can also look at a spike in players creating content for TF2 either via streaming or on youtube to discuss the proposed changes. Yes, giving them assurance that they are doing a good job is good for their esteem, but you should focus on what [i]really[/i] makes it shine: the communication. Expressly detailing the problems that they have deduced from player equip rates and banlists, explicitly outlining their intentions with the weapon, and making an attempt to rectify any wrongs such that they can make everyone happy. These communication steps are huge and not something we've seen out of them, that alone should be lauded and we should actively work with them in cases where their heart is in the right place but their hands are meddling elsewhere. Even if the balance decisions were total garbage, I'd still be rather content knowing that they'd have outlined exactly what they want to be doing with the weapons in question (since that gives myself and others some leverage with which to work with and a target to try to push weapons towards in our discussions). The fact that the changes they're preparing to ship also align with my concept of good game design is icing on that communication cake.

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52386199]I'd like some kind of neutral option or some way to explain my positive options. Also you should probably make the options more homogeneous, one of the weapons has a "the change doesn't reach its expressed purpose" or something like that which I would have liked to tick for more weapons, but no weapon other than that one has it.[/QUOTE] It refers to the goal that was stated in the Blog Post, some weapons don't have one, which is why some options lack it.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386221]They aren't in an insulated bubble where the only contact to the outside world is through an email form. They can and do venture out to gauge community feedback through discussions they can observe publicly. Probably their most vocal avenues for such are this thread, teamfortress.tv forums, and the top rated non-meme posts on /r/tf2. They can also look at a spike in players creating content for TF2 either via streaming or on youtube to discuss the proposed changes. Yes, giving them assurance that they are doing a good job is good for their esteem, but you should focus on what [i]really[/i] makes it shine: the communication. Expressly detailing the problems that they have deduced from player equip rates and banlists, explicitly outlining their intentions with the weapon, and making an attempt to rectify any wrongs such that they can make everyone happy. These communication steps are huge and not something we've seen out of them, that alone should be lauded and we should actively work with them in cases where their heart is in the right place but their hands are meddling elsewhere. Even if the balance decisions were total garbage, I'd still be rather content knowing that they'd have outlined exactly what they want to be doing with the weapons in question (since that gives myself and others some leverage with which to work with and a target to try to push weapons towards in our discussions). The fact that the changes they're preparing to ship also align with my concept of good game design is icing on that communication cake.[/QUOTE] You're making good posts, Psychopath (seriously). I hope this is good for your esteem. Keep it up.

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52385906]If the DR is trash (I mean, more trash than usual) people will not start using it in conjunction with the Etranger, they will simply stop using it. They wanted to nerf its spamming and gunspy capabilities (that's why they also nerfed the amby) but the nerf really doesn't touch that. What it does instead is making the watch absolutely useless for actually doing spy things. If you're just taking potshots at people from mid\long range and the dr gets triggered, you can just run back and wait for it to recharge while you take safer shots from even further away. But imagine instead you were trying to play like an actual spy, that is, getting behind enemies and stabbing them, the DR is absolutely useless at that. Before, you simply triggered it, used the cloak to get in some position, recharge it, and do your stuff. But now you have to wait it to recharge, or even worse you just go and act without cloak. What's the upside of using it over the invis watch? At least with the invis I can go into cloak whenever I want, it's not loud as hell, and it can last up to a FUCKTON with the etranger. The truth is that the DR will always either be shit or op as long as Valve doesn't bother fixing its concept. The original idea of the DR is: - Subpar cloak (short, noisy) + Higher survivability + Fool your enemies The "Fool your enemies" part stopped working just about instantly, not only because people simply became wary of it but because there are at least half a dozen way to tell the spy you killed is not actually dead. So people simply relied completely on the survivability, and then that got nerfed. However in exchange you got movespeed, so it became - Subpar cloak + Extreme relocation and harassing potential Now that even this is getting nerfed, this is what remains of the DR: - Subpar cloak[/QUOTE] They could maybe remove that obnoxious decloak sound now that the Dead Ringer is less spammable couldn't they? At least make it the same as stock watches so I don't have to decloak a mile away to ensure the enemy team doesn't hear me...

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52386442]They could maybe remove that obnoxious decloak sound now that the Dead Ringer is less spammable couldn't they? At least make it the same as stock watches so I don't have to decloak a mile away to ensure the enemy team doesn't hear me...[/QUOTE] Feign Death is still a foreign concept to the game's core. There's a very established understanding of "kill = dead" and that applies across all games. Without that unique decloak sound, it's a lot harder for less-experienced players to recognize what a true kill and a feigned death look like. Volume I can see being toned down, but the sound should be distinct to make this distinct mechanic audibly readable.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386504]Feign Death is still a foreign concept to the game's core. There's a very established understanding of "kill = dead" and that applies across all games. Without that unique decloak sound, it's a lot harder for less-experienced players to recognize what a true kill and a feigned death look like. Volume I can see being toned down, but the sound should be distinct to make this distinct mechanic audibly readable.[/QUOTE] Feigning death has actually been in team fortress games since the original mod for quake 20 years ago and was in Team Fortress Classic as well... It's not really foreign at all lol... and I was talking about the loud aspects of it more or less, not the sound itself.. I Want it to be around the same pitch as the default watch is all so I don't hear a spy using it miles away compared to other watches...

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386504]Feign Death is still a foreign concept to the game's core. There's a very established understanding of "kill = dead" and that applies across all games. Without that unique decloak sound, it's a lot harder for less-experienced players to recognize what a true kill and a feigned death look like. Volume I can see being toned down, but the sound should be distinct to make this distinct mechanic audibly readable.[/QUOTE] Toning down the volume of decloaking reminds me of the old days of the Saharan Spy set + Dead Ringer.

[QUOTE=quake84;52385658]Wrong. The DDS is a PITA to deal with, and it's a good riddance that a free equipable "sniper quickscope counter" has been removed. Nothing of value was lost.[/QUOTE] I don't know about anyone else, but I would have preferred the V1 Danger Shield that just gave you 150HP. It was a decent secondary that afforded you more staying power on the front lines and against chip damage like afterburn, as opposed to yet another set of resistances to add to the ever-tangling net of passive attributes. I know it is brought up every now and then that the TF team never seem to roll back entirely on a change, despite how universally panned some of them are (Bison, Claidheahm Mór), but they either need to start tweaking weapons more frequently if they are experimenting with inter-class dynamics, rather than throwing new attributes on a weapon to see if the usage statistics improve over the course of 6 months (or even 12). Perhaps this Danger Shield iteration is indicative of something they're going to change about our pudgy little arsonist, that may well give stock sniper an even bigger headache than the current Scorch Shot in terms of indirect damage and area of effect shenanigans.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52386549]Feigning death has actually been in team fortress games since the original mod for quake 20 years ago and was in Team Fortress Classic as well... It's not really foreign at all lol... and I was talking about the loud aspects of it more or less, not the sound itself.. I Want it to be around the same pitch as the default watch is all so I don't hear a spy using it miles away compared to other watches...[/QUOTE] Feign Death is not something that is a standard in videogames in general, that's why it's considered a foreign mechanic. Feign Death may have been a mechanic in previous team fortress installments, but none of them actually faked a death. They instead let the Spy disguise as a dead body on the ground. To contrast, Rocket jumping as a mechanic might not be a staple in videogames as a whole, but its applications are intuitive enough to be mutually understood by players of any skill level regardless of how familiar they are with that particular game. Not only that, but there are no tells that a feign is a feign outside of buggy hitsounds or ragdolls. There's no indication that a Spy has the thing equipped, there's no indication that it's active, and -- due to how poorly you explained yourself in the first post -- there would be no indication that this Spy is any different than any other, except letting him survive death.

[QUOTE=Oizen;52384126]It be pretty easy to fix that weapon I find. I'd just increase the damage needed to loose boost to 0. Currently its like 25, I'd probably just up that to like 70 and it be fine. Maybe make gravity damage not count for it. So then it actually be possible to lose some but not all of your boost.[/QUOTE] revert BFB to its original form back when it was fun and balanced

I don't like the new Vita Saw. Its basically an on-hit Eyelander or Airstrike. In fact, it's nothing more than an "[URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Voodoo_JuJu_(Slight_Return)"]Ubersaw (Slight Return)[/URL]" now.

[QUOTE=Jboby1;52386643]I don't like the new Vita Saw. Its basically an on-hit Eyelander or Airstrike. In fact, its more of an "[URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Voodoo_JuJu_(Slight_Return)"]Ubersaw (Slight Return)[/URL]" now.[/QUOTE] I think that was the point: Make a Medic melee weapon that would contest the Ubersaw for the best bonesaw.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52384835]Ah yes. That makes a bit more sense. Although you did say there was no reason to run the razorback anymore, which as I mentioned about its use in pubs devoid of overheal that isn't exactly the case, since the weapon is functionally the same, in fact better thanks to the buff from these changes. Also, a normal overheal gives a player 150% above their max health, so its rational to assume a 100% penalty to that would leave the sniper with at least some health to be buffed. Unless they're describing the quick-fix's attribute, which is called "max overheal", not " overheal penalty ". If the sniper can't be overhealed at all, then yeah that's a good point, but I don't think that's the case, as -100% attributes are rarely absolutes (like the fists of steel, etc.) The problem still remains of the weapon unduly affecting the class relationship, which is something the nerf only addresses in far too narrow of an environment.[/QUOTE] when valve writes something like "-100%" they're not drawing from the percentage tied to the attribute in question, they're talking about the attribute as a whole -100% overheal = no overheal

[QUOTE=RetroFan987;52386657]I think that was the point: Make a Medic melee weapon that would contest the Ubersaw for the best bonesaw.[/QUOTE] You misunderstand me. Im saying that they're basically the same weapon now. It was overpowered before, sure, but it was different. Now its the Ubersaw.