Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=RetroFan987;52386657]I think that was the point: Make a Medic melee weapon that would contest the Ubersaw for the best bonesaw.[/QUOTE] this I'd say it actually could compete now too putting yourself at risk for 60 fucking percent uber retention is arguably just as powerful as putting yourself at risk for 25% or more uber on-demand

[QUOTE=Jboby1;52386672]You misunderstand me. Im saying that they're basically the same weapon now. It was overpowered before, sure, but it was different. Now its the Ubersaw.[/QUOTE] Well to be fair, the only thing that could really convince a Medic to part with free Uber on hit is some other form of Uber-related stat. They don't want passive stats either, so keeping retention of Uber on hit is a good way to go about it in my eyes.

[QUOTE=ikes;52386676]this I'd say it actually could compete now too putting yourself at risk for 60 fucking percent uber retention is arguably just as powerful as putting yourself at risk for 25% or more uber on-demand[/QUOTE] while I really like the new vita saw, I think the percentage should be a bit higher, to get %60 on your next respawn you need to get 4 hits and either have %60 uber already or build it later, if you were using the ubersaw you'd already have uber from 0%. that's an unclear point, most likely you get hits to have a chance to keep your uber, as in, if you got 3 hits but died at 10%, you'll only keep the 10% I'd say %20 per hit is better

Well, I'm back. [B]re: the change to the Dead Ringer[/B] It's whatever. Invis has been and always will be my favorite watch from a gameplay standpoint. My preferred change to the DR would've been skill-indexing rather than nerfing it outright, but I'm fine with this change. I never relied on spamming the DR, and the weapon as it is in the game currently already has great synergy with the Big Earner. It has that moreso now, still allowing the Speed Demon Spy playstyle but not constant spam from ammo pickups alone. [B]re: the new Your Eternal Reward[/B] still sounds terrible in comparison to virtually every other knife. still not gonna use it. [B]re: the change to the Ambassador[/B] In hindsight, I can see why a reduction to Spy's ranged effectiveness was necessary. It still infuriates me greatly that nerfing Spy was high on the list of priorities, however, and I am clinging on to some desperate hope that the rest of the changes coming for the update will actually relieve those concerns for me. However, the implementation of this nerf goes against the design of the current Ambassador in every way, and also spits in the face of anyone that's spent years developing their skill with the weapon. I'll just paste over what I said on TF.TV here, since I don't like repeating myself much. "What is the maximum acceptable range of effectiveness for the Ambassador, and why isn't a simple range limit to headshots the better option? Because the way I see it, Spies are going to be denied out of perfectly-good headshots that they should have hit. Hitting long-distance headshots without a scope is one of the hardest pure aim feats you can pull off in this game, and now it's become completely RNG. Look at these two scenarios for long-distance headshots after this is implemented: The Spy should've hit it, but he misses instead. Or, the Spy misses and he miraculously hits it instead. The first isn't fair to the Spy and the second isn't fair to the dumb schmuck who got RNG'd for 102 damage across the map. Not wanting Spy to hit 102 damage across the map- I get it. That's probably not what ya'll intended when you designed the weapon, but it is a skill that players have spent literal years developing. And it sucks a lot for the people who got good enough to do it for all that time and practice to disappear. Instead of RNG, can you just decide what range you think it's OK for the Spy to headshot at and set the limit to that? And to keep positive feedback for players who are able to hit it at that range, maybe consider making it a mini-crit instead. It certainly won't oneshot anyone but it will still reward accuracy in some way and, most importantly, ensure that the player is getting positive feedback for their skill development. As this change stands now, it comes off as unfairly frustrating to anyone that's put time into developing skill with this weapon." I feel like that's a very reasonable and fair response to make. Though I'm still incredibly baffled that the Ambassador received the nerf hand before the Diamondback, or that that nerf was of higher priority than the Diamondback's, since we still can't say whether or not that weapon has been changed, too. Perhaps the Diamondback is underutilized, but it's still legitimately the best Spy primary there is right now and doesn't require even a modicum of the skill of the Ambassador for better results.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386619]Feign Death is not something that is a standard in videogames in general, that's why it's considered a foreign mechanic. Feign Death may have been a mechanic in previous team fortress installments, but none of them actually faked a death. They instead let the Spy disguise as a dead body on the ground. To contrast, Rocket jumping as a mechanic might not be a staple in videogames as a whole, but its applications are intuitive enough to be mutually understood by players of any skill level regardless of how familiar they are with that particular game. Not only that, but there are no tells that a feign is a feign outside of buggy hitsounds or ragdolls. There's no indication that a Spy has the thing equipped, there's no indication that it's active, and -- due to how poorly you explained yourself in the first post -- there would be no indication that this Spy is any different than any other, except letting him survive death.[/QUOTE] Eh I guess... Although your initial argument sounded as if you were stating Team Fortress in general, not shooters in general lol. Then again they could also do it like I did back when I first started playing the original QuakeWorld Team Fortress, where huge portions of the game was a foreign concept (since a good chunk of it was completely new to shooters in general) and learned from experiences, but then again I keep forgetting that we live in a day and age where, well... New players are too stupid to handle something as 'difficult' as that lol.

So the last thing that is confirmed before the update is VNN's email right?

[QUOTE=Jboby1;52386643]I don't like the new Vita Saw. Its basically an on-hit Eyelander or Airstrike. In fact, it's nothing more than an "[URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Voodoo_JuJu_(Slight_Return)"]Ubersaw (Slight Return)[/URL]" now.[/QUOTE] actually, you're thinking the vitasw gives ubercharge on hit, but it doesn't, instead when you hit someone, you save a certain amount of uber on death, so if you hit someone with it once and collect their organ, you save 15%(?) after you die, and can save up to 60% if you save enough organs

[QUOTE=Contra132;52386736]the way I see it, Spies are going to be denied out of perfectly-good headshots that they should have hit. [/QUOTE] maybe your class never needed to deal headshots to begin with because that's not his fuckin role

this is much more entertaining than the degreaser/axtinguisher nerfs in all seriousness though, the dead ringer needed a change but not like this if you can't refill the cloak meter, then remove the gun mettle nerf where the meter is immediately at 50% once activated, remove fire immunity, remove the resistances, maybe allow filling the meter up to 50% with metal, the rest needs to be regenerated, or maybe revert the nerf to cloak regen which changed it from 80% to %50, it'd be in a good place, if the resistances/speed buff is removed with it. I stand with most other people to make amby only do mini crits after 1000/1500 HU delete the diamond back pls

[QUOTE=ikes;52386760]maybe your class never needed to deal headshots to begin with because that's not his fuckin role[/QUOTE] Argumentatively though spy's roll is a pick class, which is the same as sniper isn't it? It's not like the Ambassador is changing his core role to begin with technically. It's more along the lines of changing the approach or his means about getting picks instead. I mean, if it deviates from spy being a pick class in games I'd love to hear your opinion on how it does this. Feel free to comment on how it does.

I've been thinking about it for a while, and while I still find the YER's and L'Etranger's newfound synergy cool, I feel that the faster cloak drain is pretty harsh for a weapon that's so reliant on cloak in the first place. Do you guys think it would be better for it to have a slower cloak regen and/or less metal from ammo packs? That way it will still benefit from L'Etranger's cloak drain on hit & higher cloak bar, but it means the YER punishes less for using another revolver, while making the 100% cloak drain on disguise still a decent drawback.

[QUOTE=ikes;52386760]maybe your class never needed to deal headshots to begin with because that's not his fuckin role[/QUOTE] Maybe not, but we've had it for eight years and it was the highest-difficulty raw aim feat you could pull off. I don't think I'm being unreasonable by being displeased that a weapon that previously depended entirely on my own skill now has RNG in the mix to throw me off of hitting shots that I very well would have hit. I'd rather it not crit at all past an acceptable range than throw it to the wind, because either I'm going to miss a shot I deserved or I'm going to hit one that I didn't deserve. Neither is desirable.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52386807]Maybe not, but we've had it for eight years and it was the highest-difficulty raw aim feat you could pull off. I don't think I'm being unreasonable by being displeased that a weapon that previously depended entirely on my own skill now has RNG in the mix to throw me off of hitting shots that I very well would have hit. I'd rather it not crit at all past an acceptable range than throw it to the wind, because either I'm going to miss a shot I deserved or I'm going to hit one that I didn't deserve. Neither is desirable.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I don't think doing an accidental headshot will be possible. Remember the Revolver's cone is already tight enough, the Ambassador is still going to fire even more accurately (50% more accurate, not less!), so the only thing that you will have to do is too fire even more inside the head, rewarding skill even more.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386504]Feign Death is still a foreign concept to the game's core. There's a very established understanding of "kill = dead" and that applies across all games. Without that unique decloak sound, it's a lot harder for less-experienced players to recognize what a true kill and a feigned death look like. Volume I can see being toned down, but the sound should be distinct to make this distinct mechanic audibly readable.[/QUOTE] You're right on saying the audio cue is very important for new players, but it must be also pointed out less experienced players have far bigger issues with DR than that. In fact I believe most of them don't understand how DR works, and that's not only because it's a weird concept. TF2 actually does a pretty good job explaining what Spy does, especially considering his job is to be hard to read. The game doesn't prevent him from doing so, it only blatantly shows [i]what[/i] he does, but not quite [i]how[/i] he does it. When you see a Spy cloak/uncloak for the first time, you instantly know he can do that - it's up to you to guess when a Spy is around, though. Same goes for backstabs, disguising and placing sappers - disguises even have a special animation to make sapping obvious. These concepts are quite easy to grasp, you have all the necessary animations, sounds and kill log icons giving you hints as to what Spies can do, and you can come up with strategies against them based on that (Pyro counters Spy is a conclusion that most players come to on their own, and rather quickly so). Dead Ringer... Not so obvious. You kill a Spy, seconds later he backstabs you, wouldn't blame you if you called him a hacker. Unless you use the weapon yourself or actively seek information on what it does online, there's almost no way for you to know that there is a feign death mechanic in the game. I reckon the fact that so many people react to the uncloak sound at all is actually because they've developed a Pavlovian response to the uncloak sound and know that there is a spy watch that makes the sound as it uncloaks - yet, when they trigger an enemy Spy's DR, they're completely oblivious to the existence of the feign mechanic and let him get away with it. Removing the sound altogether wouldn't make it more difficult for new players to connect it with the feign simply because they don't know feigning is even possible and the connection just can't even begin to exist in their heads. That's not to say the sound should be removed, of course. As to what could be done about it... Not sure. Feign death kinda works on the assumption that you don't know you triggered it, making it very difficult to explain in an elegant way in real time. Maybe the act of feigning can be hinted at after uncloak - such as by adding a particle effect connecting the Spy with the fake corpse, I don't know. Or make the Spy look like a ghost a while after uncloaking - goofy, but instantly obvious what happened with him, even to the guy who "killed" him a moment ago and just got backstabbed in return.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52386807]Maybe not, but we've had it for eight years and it was the highest-difficulty raw aim feat you could pull off. I don't think I'm being unreasonable by being displeased that a weapon that previously depended entirely on my own skill now has RNG in the mix to throw me off of hitting shots that I very well would have hit. I'd rather it not crit at all past an acceptable range than throw it to the wind, because either I'm going to miss a shot I deserved or I'm going to hit one that I didn't deserve. Neither is desirable.[/QUOTE] im almost 100% positive they tightened the radius in such a way that within a certain range the spread almost certainly wont exceed the boundaries of the head hitbox of your opponent if your aim is good meaning you'll still get your stupid headshots

Isn't it massively unlikely that a slightly mis-aimed long range headshot would hit due to the randomness? Your aim-wrongness would have to align exactly to the degree and direction of the random spread. I'd be fine with a hard range limit on headshots as an alternative, but I think the worries about the proposed change are exaggerated.

[QUOTE=Drury;52386830]You're right on saying the audio cue is very important for new players, but it must be also pointed out less experienced players have far bigger issues with DR than that. In fact I believe most of them don't understand how DR works, and that's not only because it's a weird concept. TF2 actually does a pretty good job explaining what Spy does, especially considering his job is to be hard to read. The game doesn't prevent him from doing so, it only blatantly shows [i]what[/i] he does, but not quite [i]how[/i] he does it. When you see a Spy cloak/uncloak for the first time, you instantly know he can do that - it's up to you to guess when a Spy is around, though. Same goes for backstabs, disguising and placing sappers - disguises even have a special animation to make sapping obvious. These concepts are quite easy to grasp, you have all the necessary animations, sounds and kill log icons giving you hints as to what Spies can do, and you can come up with strategies against them based on that (Pyro counters Spy is a conclusion that most players come to on their own, and rather quickly so). Dead Ringer... Not so obvious. You kill a Spy, seconds later he backstabs you, wouldn't blame you if you called him a hacker. Unless you use the weapon yourself or actively seek information on what it does online, there's almost no way for you to know that there is a feign death mechanic in the game. I reckon the fact that so many people react to the uncloak sound at all is actually because they've developed a Pavlovian response to the uncloak sound and know that there is a spy watch that makes the sound as it uncloaks - yet, when they trigger an enemy Spy's DR, they're completely oblivious to the existence of the feign mechanic and let him get away with it. Removing the sound altogether wouldn't make it more difficult for new players to connect it with the feign simply because they don't know feigning is even possible and the connection just can't even begin to exist in their heads. That's not to say the sound should be removed, of course. As to what could be done about it... Not sure. Feign death kinda works on the assumption that you don't know you triggered it, making it very difficult to explain in an elegant way in real time. Maybe the act of feigning can be hinted at after uncloak - such as by adding a particle effect connecting the Spy with the fake corpse, I don't know. Or make the Spy look like a ghost a while after uncloaking - goofy, but instantly obvious what happened with him, even to the guy who "killed" him a moment ago and just got backstabbed in return.[/QUOTE] I feel that adding a Dead Ringer drawn animation could suffice to make feigns more readable for whomever triggered it. Even if it's something subtle such as raising their hand as if the watch was in their palm could suffice to be a tell, especially if they're the kind of spy who just walks into a choke with the DR active and hopes the shield will carry him through. He'll then be obvious enough to whomever tripped the wire. In this case I'd be 100% for having the cloak sound reduced in volume, but still keep that distinct sound just because it's that important to make itself uniquely identifiable for people who didn't trip the feign.

[QUOTE=housejojo06;52386754]So the last thing that is confirmed before the update is VNN's email right?[/QUOTE] Yeah, I feel like they forgot about them toh if we aren't getting any this week. I'm not complaining, the progress in the last few weeks to push forward the "early july" theory was enough to satisfy me so far.

[QUOTE=housejojo06;52386754]So the last thing that is confirmed before the update is VNN's email right?[/QUOTE] I know I am late, but what about his email? I haven't been keeping up with VNN.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386846]I feel that adding a Dead Ringer drawn animation could suffice to make feigns more readable for whomever triggered it. Even if it's something subtle such as raising their hand as if the watch was in their palm could suffice to be a tell, especially if they're the kind of spy who just walks into a choke with the DR active and hopes the shield will carry him through. He'll then be obvious enough to whomever tripped the wire. In this case I'd be 100% for having the cloak sound reduced in volume, but still keep that distinct sound just because it's that important to make itself uniquely identifiable for people who didn't trip the feign.[/QUOTE] Well tragicomically this is not necessary, if you know what to look for there are already plenty of tells. Problem is when you [i]don't know[/i] what to look for, which is my whole point. The game doesn't make a good effort explaining itself with DR.

[QUOTE=Drury;52386888]Well tragicomically this is not necessary, if you know what to look for there are already plenty of tells. Problem is when you [i]don't know[/i] what to look for, which is my whole point. The game doesn't make a good effort explaining itself with DR.[/QUOTE] TF2 makes no effort to explain any of it's mechanics in any detail. Better tutorials and actual in game info about classes, weapon, and their mechanics is fucking mandatory for this type of game. Tiny random class tips between maps won't help the massive amount of shit and info someone needs to learn about this game.

[QUOTE=RetroFan987;52386875]I know I am late, but what about his email? I haven't been keeping up with VNN.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=valvenews]1. How much pull did the team have in the development of the OST Vinyl? Are the new soundscape and unseen SFM pictures purposeful teasing? 2. Mr. Lombardi stressed Valve's push to Source 2, stating that "Source 2 is the future for every project." Does this apply to TF2? 3. Almost three years have passed since the introduction of the Mann Co. Beta Maps program. What is the status on Asteroid and Cactus Canyon? 4. How far into the future does the team look? How much of a future, in terms of years, do you see for TF2 at this point? 5. Late June/Early July? 6. How does the team divide labor to achieve such high goals? With a smaller team, how do you get the work done? 7. What are the benefits of tiered rarity with cosmetics in crates[/QUOTE]

The RNG isn't what you need to worry about, the hitreg is what scares me.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52386899]TF2 makes no effort to explain any of it's mechanics in any detail. Better tutorials and actual in game info about classes, weapon, and their mechanics is fucking mandatory for this type of game. Tiny random class tips between maps won't help the massive amount of shit and info someone needs to learn about this game.[/QUOTE] Well like I said before, it explains most of Spy's mechanics kinda well without doing much in the way of explicit explanations. DR's feign mechanic is just tossed out there without any means for anyone to figure it out on their own, which is exacerbated by how counter-intuitive it is.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52386815]Honestly, I don't think doing an accidental headshot will be possible. Remember the Revolver's cone is already tight enough, the Ambassador is still going to fire even more accurately (50% more accurate, not less!), so the only thing that you will have to do is too fire even more inside the head, rewarding skill even more.[/QUOTE] No. The Revolver's cone may be tight in comparison to other spread patterns, but even a 50% reduction in that spread becomes dramatic at a long enough range. It's delusional to think that inaccuracy and randomness "rewards skill" in any way. It's a balancing mechanic, not a skill-index. [QUOTE=ikes;52386833]im almost 100% positive they tightened the radius in such a way that within a certain range the spread almost certainly wont exceed the boundaries of the head hitbox of your opponent if your aim is good meaning you'll still get your stupid headshots[/QUOTE] They explicitly changed the weapon so that long-distance headshots are much less likely to actually connect. I've hit heads that are smaller than my damn dot crosshair with the Ambassador before, and the spread is [I]not[/I] that tight. Just set a fucking range limit on crit headshots. Otherwise, I'm going to be missing shots that I deserved to hit after spending quite a lot of time developing the aim to pull that off, and that's gonna fuckin suck. I don't need infinite range 102 headshots but I do want to actually hit the shots I know I should be hitting.

[QUOTE=Drury;52386920]Well like I said before, it explains most of Spy's mechanics kinda well without doing much in the way of explicit explanations. DR's feign mechanic is just tossed out there without any means for anyone to figure it out on their own, which is exacerbated by how counter-intuitive it is.[/QUOTE] Maybe they should embrace the fact that no one in the know gets fooled and have the Dead Ringer drop an actual rag doll instead of an identical fake corpse.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52386899]TF2 makes no effort to explain any of it's mechanics in any detail. Better tutorials and actual in game info about classes, weapon, and their mechanics is fucking mandatory for this type of game. Tiny random class tips between maps won't help the massive amount of shit and info someone needs to learn about this game.[/QUOTE] I'm definitely all for tutorials in this game. But I wouldn't say they are really all be mandatory though if the community was better at figuring things out ( or actually help each other out ) for themselves and looking up actual good guides online like I had to when practically everything in Team Fortress was a new mechanic. But then again that's wishful thinking since I doubt the any game community will ever be that good again. I remember being a soldier/sniper main back in QWTF, and sniper was as far as I know the first actual sniper like class in any shooter back then. A lot of the stuff I know well now-a-days I had to figure out from scratch back then on my own. People would still probably avoid proper tutorials though if they did implement them and continue to be stupid in game though... Unless the tutorial portion of the game kicked in while you played and is unavoidable by some means. I wouldn't mind a good actual deathmatch / MGE arena type game mode though were you can focus on getting better on classes and less on objectives and what not though as well.

[t]https://files.catbox.moe/v2vq89.png[/t]

The Spy changes are fine. I main spy, I have a Hales Own DR, Mann CO. Select Invis and 8k kills on my Amby. The DR needs the nerf, but I do think it'll also need a slightly increased cloak regen rate to compensate. The 50% reduced spread on the amby isn't even a flat out nerf anyway, it means that every shot is now 50% tighter spread, which actually means the amby is now [I]4x as accurate when firing rapidly[/I], because of how circles work. Let the radius of the cone of fire pre change be r, then the new radius is (1/2)*r. The area of the firing cones base (where the shot can land) is pi multiplied by the radius squared, which now equals pi*((1/2)*r)^2 = pi*(r^2/4). This compared to an unchanged value, A = pi*r^2. So the actual area the shot can land really is 4x smaller. The only thing I'm not sure about is the changes to YER. I think they're really going in the right direction, but the decreased cloak time is a little too harsh to compensate for the ability to now disguise, considering that also gets rid of all your cloak.

[QUOTE=Fortune11709;52387110]The DR needs the nerf, but I do think it'll also need a slightly increased cloak regen rate to compensate.[/QUOTE] I'm neutral on it. I'd rather the activation cloak drain be lowered, because now just activating it costs 50% even if you decloak right away. [QUOTE]The 50% reduced spread on the amby isn't even a flat out nerf anyway, it means that every shot is now 50% tighter spread, which actually means the amby is now [I]4x as accurate when firing rapidly[/I], because of how circles work.[/QUOTE] pretty sure the new accuracy is just replacing the original perfect accuracy on the first headshot [quote]Let the radius of the cone of fire pre change be r, then the new radius is (1/2)*r. The area of the firing cones base (where the shot can land) is pi multiplied by the radius squared, which now equals pi*((1/2)*r)^2 = pi*(r^2/4). This compared to an unchanged value, A = pi*r^2. So the actual area the shot can land really is 4x smaller.[/quote] That's interesting, but I still have distaste for the randomness aspect. I wish TF2 just had a damn beta client so I could test this change out for myself and state for sure whether or not it feels like bullshit, because if it feels like bullshit (missing shots I know I should be hitting), I'm going to be very upset. [quote]The only thing I'm not sure about is the changes to YER. I think they're really going in the right direction, but the decreased cloak time is a little too harsh to compensate for the ability to now disguise, considering that also gets rid of all your cloak.[/quote] The question still remains: why use the YER over any other knife? Big Earner is the better chainstab knife, Spy-cicle is the better Gunspying knife, stock Knife is the better knife-knife, and the Kunai is the better pub-knife by far.