Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Contra132;52388406]Maintaining Situational Awareness[/QUOTE] Situational awareness is one thing, being required to cartoonishly look behind myself every 2 seconds so I don't die instantly with no way to fight back is a completely different issue. (and even then, shitty hit reg and the 180 degree """""""""back""""""""stab hitbox can still screw you over even when you look the fucker in the face) [QUOTE=Oizen;52388421] Spy didn't really see any positive changes. [/QUOTE] Are you kidding me, the dead ringer and ambassador nerf were quite possibly the most positive changes anyone could have come up with.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52388431]Situational awareness is one thing, being required to cartoonishly look behind myself every 2 seconds so I don't die instantly with no way to fight back is a completely different issue. (and even then, shitty hit reg and the 180 degree """""""""back""""""""stab hitbox can still screw you over even when you look the fucker in the face)[/QUOTE] What about Roaming Soldiers/Demomen/Scouts getting behind you and obliterating you before you can react? Good snipers can technically do it to you as well, hell they can do it to you from all angles and not just the back actually... Heavy's catching you off guard as well will tear you up...

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52388453]What about Roaming Soldiers/Demomen/Scouts getting behind you and obliterating you before you can react?[/QUOTE] A rocket/pipe/scatter shot will never ever kill you instantly at full health and you have a moment to react, no matter how small, a moment to react is better than none.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52388431] Are you kidding me, the dead ringer and ambassador nerf were quite possibly the most positive changes anyone could have come up with.[/QUOTE] Funny but you know what I mean. I honestly do not think of Spy as the class that needs flat nerfing right now.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52388431]Situational awareness is one thing, being required to cartoonishly look behind myself every 2 seconds so I don't die instantly with no way to fight back is a completely different issue.[/quote] You don't need to look back every two seconds. I've foiled a good 90% of backstab attempts on me by just turning around when I heard the fucker decloak. You'd be surprised how many deaths you can avoid with a good set of headphones and situational awareness. I turn around and check my surroundings most often when I'm alone, for instance, but I do so less frequently when I'm surrounded by teammates. I still do it to make sure we aren't being flanked, or to respond to apparent signs that we are being flanked, but I'm hardly flipping around every two seconds and I only rarely get backstabbed- even, yes, when I'm not playing Spy. And, on the subject of instakills- while it's true only a few things in this game can outright kill you instantly in most scenarios (Sniper headshots and Spy backstabs), there's still plenty of weapons with sky-high burst damage and DPS. Does it really matter if it takes an extra quarter-second to die when you were ambushed and caught unaware anyways? Because Scouts and Soldiers both make far more potent flankers, and you need to be watching your surroundings to deal with them, too. [quote]and even then, shitty hit reg and the 180 degree """""""""back""""""""stab hitbox can still screw you over even when you look the fucker in the face)[/QUOTE] For every dumb facestab I've gotten, I've had three more situations where I clearly stabbed the back, played the animation, heard the noise, and did either no damage or normal damage. TF2's awful netcode is not the Spy's fault, and if it worked properly all the time a 180 degree backstab hitbox wouldn't ever cause any problems, because it would be well outside of your 90 max FOV.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52388458]A rocket/pipe/scatter shot will never ever kill you instantly at full health and you have a moment to react, no matter how small, a moment to react is better than none.[/QUOTE] 3 classes can get mulched instantly if you get up close with the meatshots. Remove scout when?

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52388471]3 classes can get mulched instantly if you get up close with the meatshots. Remove scout when?[/QUOTE] Sounds good to me, ship it! [QUOTE=Contra132;52388468]Does it really matter if it takes an extra quarter-second to die when you were ambushed and caught unaware anyways? [/QUOTE] Yes. The tide of a match can change is that time and being given even the smallest opportunity to not die matters.

[QUOTE=Oizen;52388461]Funny but you know what I mean. I honestly do not think of Spy as the class that needs flat nerfing right now.[/QUOTE] This I agree with as well... It's one thing to apply nerfs to a class like scout who are in a good position even after the nerfs when fighting. It's another to take one of the weaker more situational classes in the game and just apply more nerfs in the game without sign of working in other area's to make up for it at least. Hopefully they'll give spy some more love in return on the next blog post at least. I'm kind of worried people will start bitching about the L'tranger now as well when paired up with the Dead Ringer to get around the nerf just because they don't want to deal with it.

Spies honestly aren't very burdensome for me--I would like to consider myself hyper aware of my surroundings--but their inconsistent mechanics (facestabs) exasperate me. That, and the Dead Ringer of course; it simply isn't entertaining to trigger feigns on the same Spy in quick succession. After Heavy, Spy could absolutely benefit from an update focused on reworking him.

Which mains will complain the most about changes? If we are lucky, Spy mains, if we are unlucky Pyro mains.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52388406]I'm gonna be honest- I find myself questioning why I bother to argue balance with people who legitimately believe, among other things, that classes they don't like should simply be removed from the game or that anything that counters their main of choice shouldn't exist. Not only is it tiring on my end, but it displays a clear disregard for the bigger picture of balancing and what other players happen to experience. My ideal TF2 experience would be something like silent decloaks, no Pyros or Heavies and Scout-speed on Spy among other things. [B]But I'd never push for or argue that,[/B] because that'd be fuckawful for literally everyone that isn't a Spy main and, in the long term, having no real counters would just make the game monotonous and lose any drive to keep improving and trying new things. It seems like for every bit of genuinely valuable game insight and discussion that I see here, I see two more repetitive, vapid complaints about why Maintaining Situational Awareness Is Too Hard and My Class Shouldn't Have Any Counters. Not only is it inconsiderate to the wider population of people playing who Aren't You, it's in blatant disregard to the game's balancing as a whole, competitive or otherwise.[/QUOTE] No class or weapon deserves to be nerfed so heavily that they are unusable against players of your own skill level. However Spies nerfs are a slap on the wrist compared to what many weapons and playstyles have received, if you main spy count yourself lucky, Valves track record of nerfing things that the community deems frustrating to the point of complete trash instead of actual balance shows you could have had it significantly worse

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52388670]No class or weapon deserves to be nerfed so heavily that they are unusable against players of your own skill level.[/quote] that's...that's literally spy in competitive tf2 also "it could be worse" is never a valid argument against legitimate complaints

My issue isn't dead ringer, it's how people use it. They just go in and die, not even to fake people out, but to move faster and have damage reduction. Then do it again. The design is supposed to be as a diversion tool, not a second life.

I've had a little time to think on the changes and my thoughts: Panic Attack - Seems like it will be more viable then it currently is, I'll need to playtest it. There needed to be something done with this weapon. Ambassador - I would kinda prefer something like only mini crits at long range or apply damage reduction to long range shots. I'm happy to see some rework to it though, one of the worst thing in pub games was a DR spy harassing your spawn at long range with the Ambassador. Dead Ringer - A good spy could easily bring their clock meter back up right away with metal so it's probably a deserved nerf. Maybe get rid of the clock taking away half of the meter right away and just use a normal meter now. Your Eternal Reward - Seems interesting, though the +50% cloak drain rate is harsh (but you gotta do something to prevent it from being better than stock). I wonder if something like +25-30% cloak drain rate and less clock picked up from metal/ammo/dispenser. Honestly I'm not a good enough spy to really use this knife but I may have to give it a shot now. Sandman - A long deserved nerf. Seems like it will be okay though I also wonder about adding a small amount of knockback/push back to the ball. Bonk/Crit-a-Cola - Seems fine, mainly a rebalnce for comp which is okay. I doubt these weapons will see much play on pubs. Pretty Boy’s Pocket Pistol - Seems like it could be viable now, will have to try it. Atomizer - A long deserved nerf, seems okay to me. Flying Guillotine - Seems okay I can't really say I ever use this item and I don't see anything in the change that will make me want to . B.A.S.E Jumper - Seems like a fine change, a good BASE Jumper solider could really take advantage of it in the current form. Mantreads - Seems like a good change for people who are really good at jumping. Darwin’s Danger Shield - A long deserved nerf, I doubt it will see a ton of play now though. Razorback - Seems like a fine change, I understand the Razorback was a big problem in Highlander. Make sure there's some sort of animation or particle effect for a second or two before the Razorback regenerates. Vita-Saw - I worry it might be too powerful since it can store up to 60% uber, will need to try it though. Crusader's Crossbow - An understandable nerf caused by some comp issues, wont really affect 99% of players. The Needle guns all badly need a buff though. All Miniguns - Finally poor heavy gets a buff. GRU/Eviction Notice - Need to know a bit more about how the health regen works but seems okay. Fist of Steel - Seems like a well deserved change. Rescue Ranger - I love this gun as is but I can totally understand Valve's reasoning.

I don't see the Rescue Ranger change being too much of a problem for Engineers that camp their dispensers anyway.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52388778] Vita-Saw - I worry it might be too powerful since it can store up to 60% uber, will need to try it .[/QUOTE] It's understandable that you feel this way. Retaining uber is powerful which was why it gave the edge in comp over other medics who didnt use it. Its limitation now is that you have to melee hit someone. In casual this is no problem and can be easily done but in comp, a medic cant melee without there being a huge risk. Thats why there is a division with some medics who use ubersaw and some who use the amputator for the passive hp regen in comp. Practically in casual this will be pretty powerful and can rival the ubersaw but in comp it will be high risk high reward.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52388678]that's...that's literally spy in competitive tf2 also "it could be worse" is never a valid argument against legitimate complaints[/QUOTE] well cannon knight with claid and tide turner was my favorite thing to play and that= entire loadout has been nerfed to the point where i can safely stay the play style no longer exists within tf2 in any way shape or form, so yeah i do consider a slight spread at long distances and having some downtime between dead ringer uses to not be that big of a deal especially when the spy has received tons of buffs in other ways, and if you hate cloak spy and really only like the class with the dead ringer and ambassador than at least that playstyle still exists. Its definitely toned down, you wont be allowed to be as aggressive but its not like the ambassador had its crits changed to mini crits and the dead ringer has its cloak drained in addition to no ammo recovery. I have a question for you though, how would you make spy viable in a 6s environment, what role does this game need filled that other classes dont already do better. Snipers a stupidly powerful assassin so youd have to move spy away from that role so hes no longer overshadowed by sniper, but then soldier and scout are way better skirmishers and flankers, heavy and engineer have the defensive niche locked down, so what role is left for spy.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52388877]well cannon knight with claid and tide turner was my favorite thing to play and that= entire loadout has been nerfed to the point where i can safely stay the play style no longer exists within tf2 in any way shape or form, so yeah i do consider a slight spread at long distances and having some downtime between dead ringer uses to not be that big of a deal especially when the spy has received tons of buffs in other ways, and if you hate cloak spy and really only like the class with the dead ringer and ambassador than at least that playstyle still exists. Its definitely toned down, you wont be allowed to be as aggressive but its not like the ambassador had its crits changed to mini crits and the dead ringer has its cloak drained in addition to no ammo recovery. I have a question for you though, how would you make spy viable in a 6s environment, what role does this game need filled that other classes dont already do better. Snipers a stupidly powerful assassin so youd have to move spy away from that role so hes no longer overshadowed by sniper, but then soldier and scout are way better skirmishers and flankers, heavy and engineer have the defensive niche locked down, so what role is left for spy.[/QUOTE] Tide turner skullcutter? 105 on minicrit + bash damage You can also activate trumping with a cannon jump Gonna make a video about the loadout soon-ish.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52388877]well cannon knight with claid and tide turner was my favorite thing to play and that= entire loadout has been nerfed to the point where i can safely stay the play style no longer exists within tf2 in any way shape or form, so yeah i do consider a slight spread at long distances and having some downtime between dead ringer uses to not be that big of a deal especially when the spy has received tons of buffs in other ways, and if you hate cloak spy and really only like the class with the dead ringer and ambassador than at least that playstyle still exists. Its definitely toned down, you wont be allowed to be as aggressive but its not like the ambassador had its crits changed to mini crits and the dead ringer has its cloak drained in addition to no ammo recovery. I have a question for you though, how would you make spy viable in a 6s environment, what role does this game need filled that other classes dont already do better. Snipers a stupidly powerful assassin so youd have to move spy away from that role so hes no longer overshadowed by sniper, but then soldier and scout are way better skirmishers and flankers, heavy and engineer have the defensive niche locked down, so what role is left for spy.[/QUOTE] Yeah, Hybrid Knight with Tide Turner was also my favorite class before they threw it into the garbage bin. It's honestly easier to go Steak Heavy than it is to use the Tide Turner now. Tide Turner just has way too many crippling downsides. The charge gain on kill is worthless because you stop charging the moment someone shoots you anyway. The ability to only get mini-crits from charging means you can only at most kill a light class, and that's assuming they aren't buffed and you hit with both the shield bash and the melee swing. No point in using a primary weapon with swords now, since the absurdly long draw times mean you won't be able to effectively switch weapons in combat. You'd be much better off either going full Demoman or full Demoknight with booties. Or literally anything else. Oh yeah, and to top it all off, they gave the Tide Turner the worst resistances of all shields. They pretty much did everything they could to remove this playstyle without actually doing it.

I personally believe the RR needs an even larger nerf, atleast in it's combat. The trade-off for the magnum opus of sentry protection should be that you, as an engineer, will have to rely on your pistol for damage and are pretty much helpless. The current RR still deals respectable damage to be considered that.

I know they said that they didn't post all the changes yet but i'm seriously crossing my fingers for changes on two things. Reserve shooter and Sharpened volcano fragment. Other one is a pain in the ass and other is completely useless.

There's no way the Reserve Shooter isn't going to get changed, but they completely ignored the Pyro in this blog post altogether. It's supposed to be his update, so it's likely there's some more major mechanical changes that they aren't showing yet.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52388877]well cannon knight with claid and tide turner was my favorite thing to play and that= entire loadout has been nerfed to the point where i can safely stay the play style no longer exists within tf2 in any way shape or form,[/quote] yeah, that sucks. doesn't mean it should happen to anyone else. [quote] so yeah i do consider a slight spread at long distances and having some downtime between dead ringer uses to not be that big of a deal especially when the spy has received tons of buffs in other ways, and if you hate cloak spy and really only like the class with the dead ringer and ambassador than at least that playstyle still exists. Its definitely toned down, you wont be allowed to be as aggressive but its not like the ambassador had its crits changed to mini crits and the dead ringer has its cloak drained in addition to no ammo recovery.[/quote] literally haven't complained about the DR change once here. Invis was and is my favorite watch and my favorite way to play Spy. I'm not upset that the Ambassador has become slightly less effective. I'm upset that a weapon that was previously perfectly accurate at all ranges, that allowed one of the most difficult feats of this aim in this game (long-distance, scopeless headshots), is not that anymore. I put literal years of work into polishing up my Amby aim so I could be worth something to my team in HL, and I got pretty good at it in that time. Now, my great aim doesn't matter, because at midrange I might just miss anyways, at "long" range I will most certainly miss, and at actually long ranges I will only hit my shots very rarely. The work that I put into getting good with this weapon has effectively disappeared, and if the change gets into the game as it does now then I'm going to be missing a shit-ton more shots than usual and not always being sure whether it was the stupid random spread pattern or my own fault. I hate that. I [I]hate[/I] that. I don't understand why adding randomness to what was a previously a purely skill-indexed weapon is necessary, especially not when you can keep its consistency but just nerf headshots to mini-crits/damage falloff past an acceptable range. I'd be A-OK with that. May suck not to hit infinite range 102s, but I can still pull off amazing aim feats and still feel great doing it. Nerfing the Amby's accuracy taints the identity of the weapon, strips away a playstyle previously only possible with it, and punishes the rare Spy players who were actually good enough at aiming their Ambassador to justify using it. I get the anti-Spy circlejerk on this forum is strong, but come on. [quote]I have a question for you though, how would you make spy viable in a 6s environment,[/quote] stop nerfing him, give him a few more weapons to expand his utility, and play maps other than 5cp so more classes besides the fast ones are in play bam spy is fine now [quote]what role does this game need filled that other classes dont already do better. Snipers a stupidly powerful assassin so youd have to move spy away from that role so hes no longer overshadowed by sniper, but then soldier and scout are way better skirmishers and flankers, heavy and engineer have the defensive niche locked down, so what role is left for spy.[/QUOTE] backcapping, intel gathering on med ubers and player health, getting picks to facilitate team fights... but mostly spy's key strength is an ability to get deep into territories that a sniper or scout otherwise couldn't, due to his invis watch. ideally I'd like to see buffs to the stock spy playstyle- cloaking in, getting a pick and maybe getting out if you're smart enough/they're dumb enough.

[QUOTE=Tinker;52389282]There's no way the Reserve Shooter isn't going to get changed, but they completely ignored the Pyro in this blog post altogether. It's supposed to be his update, so it's likely there's some more major mechanical changes that they aren't showing yet.[/QUOTE] -i can't read-

[QUOTE=lateguy;52389305]Why would you say they wouldn't change the Reserve Shooter? I'm interested to hear a reason.[/QUOTE] But he said the exact opposite, that he likely expected them to change it given the fact it's the most infamous garbage in the game.

I'm surprised nobody posted the B4nny Analysis/Reaction of the balance blog post. He did a pretty good job on the analysis of the balance changes. [video=youtube;qAOEpb_k2Vk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAOEpb_k2Vk[/video] Bonus: [video=youtube;b0QTlzUQKCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0QTlzUQKCY[/video] (Valve, fix the Engineer and Scout animations. They should play at 30 fps instead.) This is so freaking cool. Interesting that it's pretty similar to what I thought for a while, upgrading TF2 viewmodel anims so they include the class's personality. But damn, Pass Time had so much work done, and it shows more and more as we see new stuff. It's a shame Valve shoved it to the Alternative Game Modes section.

revert bison revert quickiebomb revert claidheamh

[QUOTE=Spectre1406;52389376] revert quickiebomb [/QUOTE] Why? Quickie is fine now

[video=youtube;b0QTlzUQKCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0QTlzUQKCY[/video] Those are some pretty cool animations, although they're not really high-quality and nobody plays pass- time

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52386846]I feel that adding a Dead Ringer drawn animation could suffice to make feigns more readable for whomever triggered it. Even if it's something subtle such as raising their hand as if the watch was in their palm could suffice to be a tell, especially if they're the kind of spy who just walks into a choke with the DR active and hopes the shield will carry him through. He'll then be obvious enough to whomever tripped the wire. In this case I'd be 100% for having the cloak sound reduced in volume, but still keep that distinct sound just because it's that important to make itself uniquely identifiable for people who didn't trip the feign.[/QUOTE] what if he dropped a DR prop when he died, like he did in the sniper v spy razorback page? shit, that would actually be neat.