Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=_Pai;52394558]I would be incredibly surprised if the balance patch actually touches the places where balancing is actually needed (w+m1, huntsman, sticky launcher) and doesn't just skirt around them as usual. Then again. they did change the DDS so maybe it's a little bit possible.[/QUOTE] flamethrower tweak is assumingly coming, huntsman isn't really fixeable short of removal, stickies are easy to outplay / already got nerfed

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52394832]flamethrower tweak is assumingly coming, huntsman isn't really fixeable short of removal, stickies are easy to outplay / already got nerfed[/QUOTE] well, stickies [i]are[/i] still extremely powerful. i hope airblast becomes more effective on them in the new update, if anything happens to them at all.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52394456]While getting annoying things toned down is all fine and good i find it hard to really get excited for anything that doesnt change how you play the game. While mostly good none of these changes completely change how any class plays. The only thing that comes close is the mantread buff and lets be honest, its just a trolldier buff because noones going to trade being able to constantly rocket jump, buff your entire team, or the reliability of a shotgun for some knockback resistance and air control unless you are being trolldier[/QUOTE] It changes how I play the game; not only will my class deal more reliable damage, but many of the unlocks fielded to tarnish my gameplay experience have been altered for the better. I don't know what you're looking for. Would you like jet packs?

I have a question about the huntsman, does the projectiles hitbox encompass the whole arrow or just its head? My point being that if it is the whole arrow, then there is a longer period of time for it to connect with a moving enemy. Also, I don't know much about arrows, but im pretty sure getting hit by the pointy bit is more likely to kill someone than the shaft.

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;52394878]I have a question about the huntsman, does the projectiles hitbox encompass the whole arrow or just its head? My point being that if it is the whole arrow, then there is a longer period of time for it to connect with a moving enemy. Also, I don't know much about arrows, but im pretty sure getting hit by the pointy bit is more likely to kill someone than the shaft.[/QUOTE] If memory serves, the hitbox is actually an area around the entire arrow and then some, similar to rockets. That's why it seems much easier to get headshots with the Huntsman, given that the hitbox is quite large compared to hitscan weapons.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52394858]It changes how I play the game; not only will my class deal more reliable damage, but many of the unlocks fielded to tarnish my gameplay experience have been altered for the better. I don't know what you're looking for. Would you like jet packs?[/QUOTE] Well some people want more gameplay variety then sitting outside of a spawn door with a minigun revved up

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;52394878]I have a question about the huntsman, does the projectiles hitbox encompass the whole arrow or just its head? My point being that if it is the whole arrow, then there is a longer period of time for it to connect with a moving enemy. Also, I don't know much about arrows, but im pretty sure getting hit by the pointy bit is more likely to kill someone than the shaft.[/QUOTE] Unpopular opinion v2., the huntsman should be next on the nerf block. Or at least something to balance out the large amounts of damage potential for doing nothing. The most complained-about gameplay things in pub TF2 seem to be: -Random crits (being looked into removal) -the huntsman (unknown) -the phlogistonator (if we get a pyro update without this being fixed I'll jump into lake Michigan) -the reserve shooter (unknown) -the sandman (being nerfed) -engineer stacking (also nerfed) -too many support classes and not enough medics (don't know how they'll fix this short of overwatch style tips) So we'll see what happens.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52393684]Since the razorback can now regenerate every 30 seconds, I think the caber should regenerate as well. That would compensate for how nerfed into oblivion it was.[/QUOTE] i have an aside question: if a caber is exploded and then dropped onto the ground and another demoman picks it up, does he get the busted version or an intact one? [editline]23rd June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52393499]I've heard this being the case, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen it honestly... Unless it's only happens on the enemies point of view... Then again, I probably didn't check the corpse all that often as I want to capitalize on being invisible and not wasting the opportunity.[/QUOTE] [video]https://youtu.be/HCkhqCdcdl8?t=53s[/video] 53 seconds in

[QUOTE=RedDagger;52394786]I'm not terribly optimistic, but is there any hope of the update bringing changes to casual? Things like the lack of scrambling + ad-hoc connections has ruined its quality a fair amount in my eyes, though I'm not sure if that's asking for too much, even if the update is supposed to be fairly large.[/QUOTE] Jill posted here a couple of months ago they were considering adding a scramble between matches (leaving parties on the same team of course) so I wouldn't be shocked to see that happen. A lot of people have been requesting a way to join a friend in a casual match, I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen either. Maybe have the main screen of casual show the games your friends are in, and give you the option to join their game and party up if there are player slots on the server. Maybe they could also give players a toggle so you can turn off or on the ability to let your friends join your game.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52394918]Well some people want more gameplay variety then sitting outside of a spawn door with a minigun revved up[/QUOTE] There's a panoply of gameplay variety already. I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate more new weapons, but let's not get greedy now.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52395005]Jill posted here a couple of months ago they were considering adding a scramble between matches (leaving parties on the same team of course) so I wouldn't be shocked to see that happen. A lot of people have been requesting a way to join a friend in a casual match, I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen either. Maybe have the main screen of casual show the games your friends are in, and give you the option to join their game and party up if there are player slots on the server. Maybe they could also give players a toggle so you can turn off or on the ability to let your friends join your game.[/QUOTE] Casual super needs a way for people to form groups that don't have to stay on the same team. I know there's some potential for griefing, but honestly a group of 4 (two of them medics, natch) playing against a bunch of randoms is pretty close to grief already. It's fun to fight your friends, plus they could make it so you could invite people you're playing with/against during games so you could get a good large group going and it'd almost be like there was a [I]community[/I]. Wishful thinking.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52394949]Unpopular opinion v2., the huntsman should be next on the nerf block. Or at least something to balance out the large amounts of damage potential for doing nothing. The most complained-about gameplay things in <b>pub</b> TF2 seem to be: -Random crits (being looked into removal) -the huntsman (unknown) -the phlogistonator (if we get a pyro update without this being fixed I'll jump into lake Michigan) -the reserve shooter (unknown) -the sandman (being nerfed) -engineer stacking (also nerfed) -too many support classes and not enough medics (don't know how they'll fix this short of overwatch style tips) So we'll see what happens.[/QUOTE] Was interested, then I saw you used Pub and completely lost any interest in the conversation. Balancing from feedback around pubs generally isn't balancing, it's dumbing the game down. Which often leads to further game in balances. Skill indexing is really the best option for a pub level, which means to make changes to a weapon or class on the intent to keep it as powerful, but change how much effort/skill is required to pull off. Hell, I still see pubs complaining about W+M1 pyro's, which is pretty much and instant red flag to not even consider that person valid in any type of balancing conversation afterwards IMO. [QUOTE=Mockingbird;52395103]Casual super needs a way for people to form groups that don't have to stay on the same team. I know there's some potential for griefing, but honestly a group of 4 (two of them medics, natch) playing against a bunch of randoms is pretty close to grief already.[/QUOTE] That's really can't be seen as a form of griefing honestly, but more along the lines of taking advantage of tools that Valve themselves gave to use to play more smartly IMO. Even if casual isn't meant to be super serious over all. [QUOTE=chandlerj333;52394951]i have an aside question: if a caber is exploded and then dropped onto the ground and another demoman picks it up, does he get the busted version or an intact one? [editline]23rd June 2017[/editline] [video]https://youtu.be/HCkhqCdcdl8?t=53s[/video] 53 seconds in[/QUOTE] Ah thanks... I really wish they'd fix all those dumb bugs on that thing. =/ Also, I'd say in the case of the caber, it should be the exploded one, that is if it regenerates...

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52395136]Was interested, then I saw you used Pub and completely lost any interest in the conversation. Balancing from feedback around pubs generally isn't balancing, it's dumbing the game down. Which often leads to further game in balances. Skill indexing is really the best option for a pub level, which means to make changes to a weapon or class on the intent to keep it as powerful, but change how much effort/skill is required to pull off. Hell, I still see pubs complaining about W+M1 pyro's, which is pretty much and instant red flag to not even consider that person valid in any type of balancing conversation afterwards IMO. That's really can't be seen as a form of griefing honestly, but more along the lines of taking advantage of tools that Valve themselves gave to use to play more smartly IMO. Even if casual isn't meant to be super serious over all.[/QUOTE] Wooooah there Captain Casual, where in that post did I make the claim we should balance around pubs? All I did was list off the commonly complained-about things in the main game experience, and express interest in what might happen. We spent the last 17 pages talking about the balance changes, completely aware of the fact that most of them were 6s-derived (a good thing), of course we need to balance around competitive hah. For that matter- you've even got the whole "don't balance around pubs" thing wrong too. Like, you certainly [I]do[/I] need to address issues created by items and strategies in casual, and act to improve them there specifically if you want to still have a game that your players enjoy. If the playerbase is unhappy or having a bad time in your flagship game experience, then any sane developer would act with that in mind. Of course, the key indeed is to use competitive and high level play as a balancing rubric, but you can't avoid dealing with things players complain about because they're fine or nonexistent in competitive.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52395198]Wooooah there Captain Casual, where in that post did I make the claim we should balance around pubs? All I did was list off the commonly complained-about things in the main game experience (e.g. casual/valve competitive) that 80% of the players play. We spent the last 17 pages talking about the balance changes, completely aware of the fact that most of them were 6s-derived (a good thing), of course we need to balance around competitive. For that matter- you've even got the whole "don't balance around pubs" thing wrong too. Like, you certainly [I]do[/I] need to address issues created by items and strategies in casual, and act to improve them there specifically. And this kind of thinking irks me to no end. If your playerbase is unhappy or having a bad time in your flagship game experience, then any sane developer would act with that in mind. Of course, the key indeed is to use competitive and high level play as a balancing rubric, but you can't avoid dealing with things players complain about because they're fine or nonexistent in competitive.[/QUOTE] Sorry if you didn't mean it, when you mentioned pubs complaints I thought you were taking some of those idiotic complaints casual players generally whine about into consideration lol. Skill Indexing, as I mentioned earlier would actually address casual problems without breaking/screwing over the class or weapons BTW. The act of raising or lowering the effort needed into functionally using a weapon, without effecting the over all effectiveness of the weapon.

the huntsman is still a pretty bad weapon. there's a reason why running it in comp is considered throwing/BM. the same criticism that can be made about the huntsman in pubs- that it allows pubbies to do too much for too little- can be also be said for a number of the sniper rifles, which can one-hit many classes on a bodyshot. the huntsman's actual potential to influence a game is pathetically little, and [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSPLy7D0Vv0"]while you can make flashy pub frag videos with it[/URL], it's still not a good weapon and doesn't need a nerf.

Ah. Fair play there Kitt. The rant wasn't even really directed at you, more the public perception of things. It just drives me up the wall to think that this community can be so insanely divided, that we have a whole section of 24/7 idlefarm trade_meme server players, who fear anything even remotely competitive and hiss whenever even basic teamwork improvements are mentioned... And by the same token, just as many people who couldnt care less about what happens to casual/trading/[I]the business model[/I] so long as it doesn't interfere with the competitive metagame, as if it can somehow exist without a quality base game. Isn't real TF2 supposed to be somewhere in between?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52395218]Isn't real TF2 supposed to be somewhere in between?[/QUOTE] No. Real TF2 is just...TF2. Every bit of its community, every way its played, every class that's mained, all the people who play it, etc. There is no "real" TF2, it's just a game with a crazy amount of variety that's enjoyed by different people in different ways. [editline]23rd June 2017[/editline] balancing should def be done top-down, though

[QUOTE=Contra132;52395238]No. Real TF2 is just...TF2. Every bit of its community, every way its played, every class that's mained, all the people who play it, etc. There is no "real" TF2, it's just a game with a crazy amount of variety that's enjoyed by different people in different ways. [editline]23rd June 2017[/editline] balancing should def be done top-down, though[/QUOTE] So you don't think the friendlies in casual and (on the other end) nohats mod should be eliminated for a consistent experience? Not saying i disagree, but these are some of the problems with the snowflake/subjective enjoyment theory that need to be tackled.

[QUOTE=_Pai;52394558]I would be incredibly surprised if the balance patch actually touches the places where balancing is actually needed (w+m1, huntsman, sticky launcher) and doesn't just skirt around them as usual. Then again. they did change the DDS so maybe it's a little bit possible.[/QUOTE] I have a brilliant counter for W+M1. Whichever key you have bound to backwards, (usually S), you hold it. Wah lah! You cannot die!

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52395253]So you don't think the friendlies in casual and (on the other end) nohats mod should be eliminated for a consistent experience? Not saying i disagree, but these are some of the problems with the snowflake/subjective enjoyment theory that need to be tackled.[/QUOTE] I don't think any great force should be made against friendlies in casual. It's one of those fun and unique examples of emergent gameplay only possible in multiplayer titles. However, these people shouldn't raise a fit if they're kicked for being a nuisance to their team, and if they want a space to themselves there's community and trade servers just for that. The nohats mod is primarily for performance, but also for people who miss TF2's aesthetic. There's nothing wrong with its existence, it's just another way for people to play TF2. I'm also of the opinion that, should people so choose, there be proper in-game options to disable cosmetics and other performance-hogging effects. It may damage Little Jimmy's Big Ego and his parent's Bigger Wallet if all he wants is for people to look at his hideous Lime Scout, but it also allows people to customize their experience, and that fits within my philosophy too. You may spend countless hours on trade servers spycrabbing for expensive hats, but I don't need to do that. I'd rather be stabbing backs in Highlander.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52395253]So you don't think the friendlies in casual and (on the other end) nohats mod should be eliminated for a consistent experience? Not saying i disagree, but these are some of the problems with the snowflake/subjective enjoyment theory that need to be tackled.[/QUOTE] I don't think no hat mods would ever really effect anyones experience over all. Friendlies tend to be very disruptive in games though. It's also griefing, since the people playing on their team are forcibly a man down that won't be replaced without removing the friendly. Friendly heavies have a tendency to heal the enemy team by tossing them sandviches. Then you get the ones that go out of their way to attack players when they get killed. Making hypocritical statements stating nonsense that usually goes along the lines of "You can't play the way you want to play because it interfiers with my fun", or some bullshit like that. Over all though it all boils down to the majority vote on the server though. If you get kicked off the server for being a friendly, it simply means the majority of the server doesn't want anything to do with you. Same can be said in reverse as well, if you get kicked for killing friendlies and get booted off from the server, don't get mad and what not. Shrug it off, and search for another server. Although, if friendlies really have an issue with being killed. They really should look into community servers. Any trade server will work, but Lazy Purple's Silly Servers actively support friendlies and have kicking rules for people who actively kill people on their servers to promote that it is a "friendly server"...

The biggest argument against nohats, is that cosmetics are the reason TF2 even makes money for Valve, so I couldn't see them allowing people to disable them.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52395289]I don't think any great force should be made against friendlies in casual. It's one of those fun and unique examples of emergent gameplay only possible in multiplayer titles. However, these people shouldn't raise a fit if they're kicked for being a nuisance to their team, and if they want a space to themselves there's community and trade servers just for that. The nohats mod is primarily for performance, but also for people who miss TF2's aesthetic. There's nothing wrong with its existence, it's just another way for people to play TF2. I'm also of the opinion that, should people so choose, there be proper in-game options to disable cosmetics and other performance-hogging effects. It may damage Little Jimmy's Big Ego and his parent's Bigger Wallet if all he wants is for people to look at his hideous Lime Scout, but it also allows people to customize their experience, and that fits within my philosophy too. You may spend countless hours on trade servers spycrabbing for expensive hats, but I don't need do that. I'd rather be stabbing backs in Highlander.[/QUOTE] I think this is where you and I disagree on design philosophy heh. Grand force should be taken against friendlies and other (purposeful) grief elements in casual, as they made a point of coming there specifically to do so where people are actively trying to play the game, instead of doing it in one of the countless community ones designed specifically for that kind of thing. Casual shouldn't mean super try-hard, but also not super-useless either. Its meant to strike a balance. The nohats mod, while noble in intent for increasing user performance (since that requires work, and this is valve we're talking about), is still regardless a detriment to the game's cosmetic business model, and therefore continued existence, scaling directly with how many people use it. That's just how free-user models work. Everybody loves adblockers too, until their favorite web page announces its closure due to lack of ad funding. DX8 is being phased out for the same reason, however, valve does need to get serious about making the game run smoothly if they want to do that and not lose players due to no-performance ragequits.

[QUOTE=DrCactus;52395318]The biggest argument against nohats, is that cosmetics are the reason TF2 even makes money for Valve, so I couldn't see them allowing people to disable them.[/QUOTE] I don't care if people see my cosmetics. They're mostly for me. I wouldn't use a nohats setting if it were implemented, though, due to the benefit of being able to identify and recognize certain players as threats more easily. I don't feel like enabling the ability to disable stuff like cosmetics and unusual effects would be as much a huge blow as people seem to think it would be. I've seen the "but other people won't see them!" argument about a dozen times, but only ever as a hypothetical reason that it could go badly, not as an earnest belief from the person discussing it that everyone should be forced to look at their cosmetics. Honestly the only people I see maybe being upset by the change are people with the most obnoxious, garish loadouts out there. Probably those guys who put swastikas on decal weapons and cosmetics, too. Honestly, fuck 'em. They're a minority at best, and most players will keep cosmetics enabled anyways. Only people truly struggling for performance or truly missing TF2's old artstyle would use the option, and in either case that would make the game a better experience for them. Hell, in the case of the former, it may be the difference between the game even being [I]playable[/I].

[QUOTE=Contra132;52395337] [B]Honestly the only people I see maybe being upset by the change are people with the most obnoxious, garish loadouts out there.[/B] Probably those guys who put swastikas on decal weapons and cosmetics, too. [/QUOTE] but thats the point, right? unusuals with obnoxious effects cost lots of money and the most obnoxious paints are the most expensive you've paying a premium to have obnoxious cosmetics that others are forced to see, if other people could turn it off, unusuals with obnoxious effects and brightly colored paints would lose some of their appeal, they're only 100% guaranteed to be seen by you but everyone else can turn it off at the flick of a switch and paying for cosmetics in online games is only really viable becuase you can force people to look at them. realistically, no it wouldn't destroy the game's economy and revenue stream, but it doesn't make much sense for valve to do either especially considering theres many other avenues that the game could be optimized.

If you don't want to see hats or unusuals, just download a mod to remove them. it works on all servers. Valve will never add something like that.

[QUOTE=DatHarry;52395353]but thats the point, right? unusuals with obnoxious effects cost lots of money and the most obnoxious paints are the most expensive[/QUOTE] technically almost none of the money that is used on these unusuals and garish cosmetics actually go to valve themselves, just to the guy lucky enough to unbox them. [quote]you've paying a premium to have obnoxious cosmetics that others are forced to see, if other people could turn it off, unusuals with obnoxious effects and brightly colored paints would lose some of their appeal, they're only 100% guaranteed to be seen by you but everyone else can turn it off at the flick of a switch and paying for cosmetics in online games is only really viable becuase you can force people to look at them.[/quote] is that why you buy cosmetics? I do like showing my cosmetics to other people, but I neither know or care if other people in my games are seeing them. I own one unusual right now, donated my other to a Tip of the Hats stream. I've spent at least $100, if not more, on cosmetic items in this game but it doesn't ruin the game for me if people can't see them. There's also, realistically-speaking, an almost-zero chance you'd actually know people can or can't see your cosmetics unless they tell you. [quote]realistically, no it wouldn't destroy the game's economy and revenue stream, but it doesn't make much sense for valve to do either especially considering theres many other avenues that the game could be optimized.[/quote] Until the game sees this mythical optimization update, disabling the insanely high number of cosmetics and extra particle effects/sheens that are continually being added to it and slogging its performance should be an option for the people who need it. Additionally, there should be a way for people to enjoy the stock TF2 look, should they so please, without being subjected to Xbox TF2 or jumping through five hundred hoops to install TF2 Classic. Enabling the ability to disable cosmetics and other performance-hogging aspects of the game may irk some, but by comparison it will allow people with abysmal performance to actually play the game/play the game at a good framerate. People generally like it when they have a lot of ways to customize their gameplay experience.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52395388]technically almost none of the money that is used on these unusuals and garish cosmetics actually go to valve themselves, just to the guy lucky enough to unbox them. [/QUOTE] people buy keys to get unusuals, that is how valve make money [QUOTE]is that why you buy cosmetics? I do like showing my cosmetics to other people, but I neither know or care if other people in my games are seeing them. I own one unusual right now, donated my other to a Tip of the Hats stream. I've spent at least $100, if not more, on cosmetic items in this game but it doesn't ruin the game for me if people can't see them. There's also, realistically-speaking, an almost-zero chance you'd actually know people can or can't see your cosmetics unless they tell you.[/QUOTE] tbh i don't really care about cosmetics and just wear whatever, but what's the value of the banana hat if other people can't see it all the time? sure there's some value to looking at you're own cosmetics but i guarantee that most of the value is having other people look at yours [QUOTE]Until the game sees this mythical optimization update, disabling the insanely high number of cosmetics and extra particle effects/sheens that are continually being added to it and slogging its performance should be an option for the people who need it.[/QUOTE] hard to comment on this one, cant argue that the game is pretty unoptimized, altho these days importer cosmetics are pretty lightweight [QUOTE]Additionally, there should be a way for people to enjoy the stock TF2 look, should they so please, without being subjected to Xbox TF2 or jumping through five hundred hoops to install TF2 Classic. [/QUOTE] ehhhhh idk about that, you can't exactly downgrade to old patches of any other game that's had a massive change in visual style/quality over the years, idk why it would suddenly be a necessary tf2 feature

Well the problem with this is it may not effect you, the single user, but if something like [I]70% of the playerbase[/I] does this, who are made up of single users like you thinking that same "it doesn't hurt me" thought, then we WILL have a problem (and likely also a much less updated game, if that's even fathomable)

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52394832]flamethrower tweak is assumingly coming, huntsman isn't really fixeable short of removal, stickies are easy to outplay / already got nerfed[/QUOTE] My only real problem with huntsman is that it's the best melee weapon in the game, they ought to make it crit only past a certain range.