Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52400122]The problem with the +stat -stat weapons had less to do with the format itself, and more to do with how the weapons tended to be awful garbage that nobody would want to use ever. Like early eviction notice or family business, where they were on par with, or maybe even slightly worse than, useless stock weapons like heavy shotgun or fists. It's less a problem with the +- format, and more a problem with how the +- format lends itself to creating weapons that are exact side grades to stock weapons, even when those stock weapons are trash garbage. When stock sucks, you need to make a side grades to the viable weapons in that slot, not balance around the worst option.[/QUOTE] Well, the suggested thing was +- stats on weapons that are *not* stock like the rescue ranger or huntsman.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52399376]Well, they don't. If you get the jump on an overhealed Demo or Soldier as say, another Soldier, you have the pure advantage and can get rid of them even though they have a medic attached. The Heavy on the other hand is another case. If you get the jump on him, he'll still have 350 HP left, which means that you can unload your entire clip on him and he'll still live his jolly live, while he mows you down. There's a reason mobility items are banned in comp, no one wants a 450 HP Heavy at mid denying dives. 150 HP means the world in a lot of situations, hell the Scout's Candy Cane med-drop can mean the world. If the current heavy has no team support, he should be an easy kill, just like the Engineer. I had an idea floating around that would basically be a sub-class for the Heavy - make a Minigun that comes with an ever so slight dmg and overheal penalty while increasing mobility and rev-up time, pair it with a secondary that gives the heavy passively 50+ max HP alongside a 3+ HP Regen every sec (depending on combat - think Concheror) and you have yourself a sub class that can work without a medic. (Has nothing to do with it but another idea I had was a Minigun that would basically have an explosion "blast" once shooting for the first time after revving up that would deal damage, but I dont think it syncs with the roamer heavy.)[/QUOTE] You're going about this all wrong. If you're ambushing a Heavy+Medic combo, your first priority should be the Medic. Once he's dead, then the Heavy will become easy pickings, as he will usually be out of position given he formerly had a Medic to enable aggression. That is, of course, unless you're a Demoman: you can just spam stickies at the combo and they'll both die unless they choose to separate or have an uber at the ready. No class should be 100% reliant on others to function adequately; not even Engineer suffers from this predicament, since his survival is (usually) dependent on buildings he himself can deploy.

[QUOTE=Paradox_cg;52399262]I don't. Like I said in a previous post, medics using melee is extremely risking and should only be used when it is a last resort (in terms of comp). The "old" vita saw was op because the effect was passive. The new vita saw now requires the medic to be risky. Medics in comp should constantly be healing and this new vita saw will stop healing for a period of time that the medic chooses to invest in getting organs (Healing is just as important as uber). The "old" vita saw's effect was a passive and didn't influence the medic's duration of healing. This reasoning is for comp. Its a bit different in casual. [/quote] There isn't actually any risk to it at all. Its entire mechanic happens when you die, if you land the hit, you save uber. If you don't land the hit, you lose 100% of your uber, except thats what normally happens. So basically if a medic knows he's going to die, he just needs to land some melees before he gets destroyed and he's saved himself some of his uber The Ubersaw is high risk high reward because it puts medic in a vulnerable spot for a nice payoff. You can still die before you hit 100% and gain nothing. The Vita saw is a last resort weapon that will payoff no matter what if you land a melee, and if you dont land the melee. you don't really lose anything, since you were probably going to die anyway.

but that is under an scenario where the medic will be close enough to land one or two hits to make it worth the trouble. generally speaking, a medic under those circumstances (alone, after a patient was taken down) will most likely die even before he gets to do anything significant or before the gap is closed. the ubersaw often aids in whatever offensive push he and his patient are engaged and (if posible) to finish an enemy with low health, rather than roam alone and build uber on its own(wich will get you killed).

If only there were some class that was relatively short range that focuses on getting point blank shotgun shots to kill people for medic to melee in desperation.

Tommorow pls :badzing:

in high level plays, an ubersaw hit is usually only seen when an enemy scout or spy fucks up flanking the medic, in which case the medic will most likely survive, it's rarely seen when the medic's teammates are already dead

[QUOTE=Oizen;52400852]If only there were some class that was relatively short range that focuses on getting point blank shotgun shots to kill people for medic to melee in desperation.[/QUOTE] look man if you're only going to make arguments based on ideal scenarios thats is ok and I respect that but you're bound to be dissapointed really quick.

[QUOTE=Metaru;52401429]look man if you're only going to make arguments based on ideal scenarios thats is ok and I respect that but you're bound to be dissapointed really quick.[/QUOTE] Good thing 6s doesn't revolve around Scout.

For the update, I hope to God that Valve makes Pyro become a more offensive fighter and not a defensive babysitter. I mean, think about it. Pyro is the insane guy that bashed a bear in with just his axe because he thought it was insulting fire and even doused two of the TFC mercs in oil and set them and the whole building they were in on fire. Even in his Meet the Team video, he scared the living shit out of the Blu team and mauled them severely. He's nightmare fuel incarnate and should be seen as such. But right now, he feels like a joke in-game due to his shit range and damage.

[QUOTE=Infernox-;52402020]For the update, I hope to God that Valve makes Pyro become a more offensive fighter and not a defensive babysitter. I mean, think about it. Pyro is the insane guy that bashed a bear in with just his axe because he thought it was insulting fire and even doused two of the TFC mercs in oil and set them and the whole building they were in on fire. Even in his Meet the Team video, he scared the living shit out of the Blu team and mauled them severely. He's nightmare fuel incarnate and should be seen as such. But right now, he feels like a joke in-game due to his shit range and damage.[/QUOTE] While I do not agree gameplay-wise I do wish Valve would play up that angle a bit in Pyro´s characterisation. I don´t know why but the whole "Pyro-Thinks-He-Spread-joy-But-Really-Kills-People" crosses a line for me. It would be much better if the Pyro was a remorseless killer like the other mercenaries.

[QUOTE=DrVincentWolf;52402392]While I do not agree gameplay-wise I do wish Valve would play up that angle a bit in Pyro´s characterisation. I don´t know why but the whole "Pyro-Thinks-He-Spread-joy-But-Really-Kills-People" crosses a line for me. It would be much better if the Pyro was a remorseless killer like the other mercenaries.[/QUOTE] And pass up an opportunity to pander to the brony crowd, which they already knew play TF2 a great deal? Valve is a business dontchaknow. Those [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Combustible_Cutie"] elite grade latex unicorn masks [/URL] and [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Magical_Mercenary"]artstyle-killing fantasy suits[/URL] aren't going to sell themselves you know. But in all seriousness they probably did so because it adds a facet to TF2 that it never had before. Pyro was always the cute merc, and in TF2's otherwise Rated M For MANNLY world, its a contrast that may attract a different sort of player or content creator, as we've seen in the plethora of pyroland related things added after the update.

For the new Flamethrower I want a Napalm Thrower. Maybe it could shoot Napalm in a think arc. But that could just be me wanting more Vietnam styled items.

I like the current Pyro characterisation because there is a lot more you can do with it in terms of, well almost anything from writing, scenes and plot points in the comics and themed stuff like the cosmetics and skins that are based on it, even thought they are quite a big base-splitter. You can't do much with the generic pyromaniac character other than 'he burns stuff and he's mad' and the 'mad' part is already covered by quite a few of the other mercs as well in various, more interesting forms. It also slightly annoys me why people immediately think pyroland, any candyland type theme or even anything just including ponies or unicorns must be a my little pony reference. Yeah, the stuff like the magical mercenary probably are but the whole theme has been done many, many times before in other media and stories long before mlp started. There isn't even any ponies on any of the Valve made pyroland stuff, its mostly lollipops and rainbows.

I have been gone for an entire year since Valve broke TF2 for me with Meet your Match. Have they released Cactus Canyon yet?

[video]https://youtu.be/KDICaSDMjXY[/video] I don't know about you guys, but I think this video is terrible and I hope Valve totally ignores him.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52403234][video]https://youtu.be/KDICaSDMjXY[/video] I don't know about you guys, but I think this video is terrible and I hope Valve totally ignores him.[/QUOTE] You can't completely disregard a video just because you disagree with a few points of it. Unless you disagree with majority of it in which case I feel like you aren't as aware of the class's flaws as you think you are.

[QUOTE=StormBlink;52403158]I have been gone for an entire year since Valve broke TF2 for me with Meet your Match. Have they released Cactus Canyon yet?[/QUOTE] Pretty much nothing worth noting has happened other than a few quality of life things like fixing quantum crouching and colour correction. and no, cactus canyon nor asteroid have been added or even updated in years.

[QUOTE=Punchy;52403243]You can't completely disregard a video just because you disagree with a few points of it. Unless you disagree with majority of it in which case I feel like you aren't as aware of the class's flaws as you think you are.[/QUOTE] I do disagree with everything, no joke.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52403234][video]https://youtu.be/KDICaSDMjXY[/video] I don't know about you guys, but I think this video is terrible and I hope Valve totally ignores him.[/QUOTE] Engie is only absurdly strong in pubs in large numbers or with very strong team coordination. The majority of Dane's proposed changes would only affect that situation. Engineer is not even remotely overpowered in any sort of serious play. He's useless against soldiers and demomen, even with the Short Circuit. Also I hate his talk about not making engineer defensive. The game as a whole is pretty skewed against defenders in many situations, and without a defensive anchor like a sentry and dispenser, it becomes that much harder to hold a point. In a game as momentum-focused as TF2, having a roadblock can be the only thing that will actually stop a huge push.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52403234][video]https://youtu.be/KDICaSDMjXY[/video] I don't know about you guys, but I think this video is terrible and I hope Valve totally ignores him.[/QUOTE] If they'd listen to his changes then Valve would make the Pyro viable by to making him able to heal, since Pyro already is sorta supportive and it would introduce more class diversity (yay). Also they'll remove spy checking since that makes Pyro OP or something.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52403262]I do disagree with everything, no joke.[/QUOTE] You believe the rescue ranger already has fair downsides (no metal required to upgrade) and that teamstacked defense engineers aren't in any way a problem?

I don't agree with the idea of making engie a healer on par with medic. I'm not sure I even agree about making engie less defensive, but for the most part that video was quite good. Engineers have a bad problem of "effort imbalance," where for very little effort they can impose a need for much greater effort from their enemies. While it didn't put it in those terms, the video does address this issue pretty well.

I still think the best way to tackle the Engineer being too focused on defense is to just give the Gunslinger: - A mini Dispenser - A speedpad congratulations you have now an attack sub-class to the Engineer

i completely disagree with his point of removing cooperative engineering. its a huge team working mechanic intrinsic to the game

[QUOTE=da space core;52403427]i completely disagree with his point of removing cooperative engineering. its a huge team working mechanic intrinsic to the game[/QUOTE] while I think the video overall is pretty good, kinda surprised to see good suggestions from Uncle Dane but this point is pretty bad, there must be a better way to achieve the goal, what if there was a hard cap on the amount of ammo Dispensers can give on a team?, say, every new dispenser built, that set amount is decreased per dispenser, so every engie now has less metal and his nest is easier to destroy, this will help a lot if the engies are spread around, not much if they all build next to each other, where killing them is a piece of cake

I'd say if you want to reduce the effectiveness of engie stacking, just make it so buildings you don't own heal for less ala wrangler, and they cost more metal to upgrade. That way coop engineering is still an option, but it's not as effective as it was prior. They made it so meds build uber slower if there are multiple medics on 1 patient, so I can't see why they wouldn't do this for engie.

The two points I strongly disagree on is giving every class an option to heal (even if minor). And outright removing the ability to aid other engineer buildings. The first point not because I believe medic should be the only one to heal, that's pretty stupid. But the thought of every class being able to plop down something to get health back seem infuriating. I believe every class should have a weapon that switches them to a supportive role, not specifically for healing but something that benefits the team rather than themselves. That way as many would call it [I]"mixing up the meta, letting alternative playstyles be still useful"[/I] would be just that. Second point I can see his reasoning, but that's removing a big thing of Engineer's. Perhaps nerfing the amount of metal an Engineer can give to ally buildings, instead of the full 25 drop it to 10 - 15 so allies healing or upgrading your stuff with wrench is slower than the owner. In addition nullify the max amount of health ally engineers can heal your buildings entirely (that way 3 engineers spamming rescue ranger one after the other on the same sentry isn't stupidly good). That way Engineers who want to help you CAN still help you, however not at the pace where 3 or more engineers built in such a way entirely lock down areas making single pushes impossible.

[QUOTE=Punchy;52403326]You believe the rescue ranger already has fair downsides (no metal required to upgrade) and that teamstacked defense engineers aren't in any way a problem?[/QUOTE] The rescue ranger indeed needs to be rebalanced, wrangler too, but removing the ability of engies to aid other engies to combat team stacking is simply horrific. I also dislike how Dane comes about this, Valve implementing class limits is too outrageous and ridiculous but outright removing a gameplay element that incentivizes teamwork in a team game sounds reasonable?

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52403489]The rescue ranger indeed needs to be rebalanced, wrangler too, but removing the ability of engies to aid other engies to combat team stacking is simply horrific. I also dislike how Dane comes about this, Valve implementing class limits is too outrageous and ridiculous but outright removing a gameplay element that incentivizes teamwork in a team game sounds reasonable?[/QUOTE] a class limit of 2 for casual would fix pretty much most of the problems i have with it when playing