Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52403489]The rescue ranger indeed needs to be rebalanced, wrangler too, but removing the ability of engies to aid other engies to combat team stacking is simply horrific. I also dislike how Dane comes about this, Valve implementing class limits is too outrageous and ridiculous but outright removing a gameplay element that incentivizes teamwork in a team game sounds reasonable?[/QUOTE] I wasn't referring to Dane's cooperative engie proposal though, mcfly said he disagrees with everything in the video. If you don't think turtling engies on defense isn't in itself in some way an unfun and flawed game design, then I feel like you're holding onto it for the sake of conserving tradition more than you are looking at the game from a biasless point of view.

I could see having engineers not being as effective when dealing with friendly buildings as opposed to their own. But to completely remove the ability to help other engineers out seems a big excessive. Same with the idea of him being a potential better option then medics. Dispensers already hit multiple targets at once where a medic can only heal more then one target with the amputator, which puts them at risk since they're now standing still for a duration while the taunt goes through. That backpack dispenser idea couldn't surpass the healing of a Lv1 dispenser without it being really painful to fight against IMO. I do like some of his idea's though when it comes to weapon changes specifically though. [QUOTE=Blackavar;52403493]a class limit of 2 for casual would fix pretty much most of the problems i have with it when playing[/QUOTE] Biggest potential issue with this though is when a much needed class is locked by people who are complete garbage at said class.

I'm honestly surprised to see so much resistance to the idea of removing the ability to repair/upgrade others' buildings. It's such a simple solution with basically no effect outside of stacking. I don't see how repairing other people's buildings is supposed to be some paragon of teamwork.

[QUOTE=Punchy;52403500]I wasn't referring to Dane's cooperative engie proposal though, mcfly said he disagrees with everything in the video. If you don't think turtling engies on defense isn't in itself in some way an unfun and flawed game design, then I feel like you're holding onto it for the sake of conserving tradition more than you are looking at the game from a biasless point of view.[/QUOTE] Oh no, I agree 5 sentries on a payload last is complete unbreakable bullshit and I have absolutely no clue how to fix it.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52403517]I'm honestly surprised to see so much resistance to the idea of removing the ability to repair/upgrade others' buildings. It's such a simple solution with basically no effect outside of stacking. I don't see how repairing other people's buildings is supposed to be some paragon of teamwork.[/QUOTE] If they want to go that route, why start directly at removing the ability completely over trying maybe a friendly engineers have a reduced effect towards working on other engineer buildings as opposed to their own.

On that stacking multiple engineers problem and 5 sentries on a payload last. What about sapper that would multiply his damage depends on how many (sapped) buildings are in his range ?• That would easily counter engineers nests-hives and it would force them be more spread or reduce the number of engineers. And there would be no need of removing cooperative engineering.(Sorry for bad English)

Explain a new user that they can't fix their allie's sentry. removing that feature would be bad and pointless.

I think most new users have to be told that they [I]can[/I] or find out by trying. Explain to a new user that they can't move an ally's building: You don't have to, because they have no particular reason to expect it. We know it bolsters turtling, so what is the good side of this ability? So far the only defense anyone has given for it is that it lets you help a teammate and is therefore "teamwork."

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52403527]Oh no, I agree 5 sentries on a payload last is complete unbreakable bullshit and I have absolutely no clue how to fix it.[/QUOTE] All you need is a coordinated push with a DH/Loch-n-Load... If anything the "nest" has a huge disadvantage in that it doesn't move. Having played this game for years I've seen quite a few different versions of Engineer. The earliest versions being quite hellish. But there has always been a direct counter.... That being a coordinated push. The gun can only track one person at a time. 5 man nests don't happen in competitive... Pubs? Plenty though... But that more often than not means its a 24/32 player server. (so you are more than likely going to have more than enough people to tackle the nest at once) I think engineer has fallen off the status of being over powered by a huge leap. What makes him difficult to counter is the [I]lack of informed players[/I]. One of the very basic ways to counter a sentry is to stay outside its firing range, and I'm willing to bet most people don't know the distance off the back of their hand. The mini-sentry approach... I find to be horribly overpowered and annoying. Face 3-5 of those and your scouts/jumping soldiers/and medics get put in a real tough spot. The speed and mobility of the mini is strong. [I]Too strong. Edit: [/I][B]Engineer has been getting nerf'd repeatedly,[/B] but I never see efforts being made to teach players how to counter the guns. For example: - If you know for sure you can't kill the gun with the damage at your range. Focus the engineer. You're bound to random crit the engineer. (Kill the gun while he's dead) - If you don't think Uber will let you get in close enough to a bunch of level 3's that are fairly close together, try sniping the engineers with kritzkrieg. (Crockets/Pipes/Stickies) - 5 Engineers repairing one gun? Spread them out by damaging their other crap. Shoot the dispensers, you're bound to scare them into walking away to manage their own buildings. (without destroying them) - Have a spy(s) on your team? Tell him to wait to place the sapper until you're already shooting at the gun(s). - Have a sniper on your team? Have him tell you the moment he places a fully charged shot on a gun. Snipers can help a lot more than you might think. - Pyro's can reflect level-3 Sentry rockets. They do a LOT of damage. etc...

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52403688]I think most new users have to be told that they [I]can[/I] or find out by trying. Explain to a new user that they can't move an ally's building: You don't have to, because they have no particular reason to expect it. We know it bolsters turtling, so what is the good side of this ability? So far the only defense anyone has given for it is that it lets you help a teammate and is therefore "teamwork."[/QUOTE] You have two sentries fairly near eachother, easy running distance. One is yours, one is your teammates. You get backstabbed and your sentry gets sapped, but the friendly engineer near you kills the spy. He runs over to your sentry as slowly loses life. You beg him over the mic to save your baby. He swings his wrench and.... "whoosh" it hits nothing. Your sentry dies and the enemy team easily overwhelms the other engineer without your gun's support.

[QUOTE=IJCT;52403629]Explain a new user that they can't fix their allie's sentry. removing that feature would be bad and pointless.[/QUOTE] They whack the building a couple of times and realize that they can't fix or upgrade the ally's sentry. What's so confusing about this?

[QUOTE=Trekintosh;52403731]You have two sentries fairly near eachother, easy running distance. One is yours, one is your teammates. You get backstabbed and your sentry gets sapped, but the friendly engineer near you kills the spy. He runs over to your sentry as slowly loses life. You beg him over the mic to save your baby. He swings his wrench and.... "whoosh" it hits nothing. Your sentry dies and the enemy team easily overwhelms the other engineer without your gun's support.[/QUOTE] In a desperate bid to end a stalemate, a spy manages to get an engie pick, losing his life to do so. This should at the very least create some small progress toward breaking through, but it's negated completely because there's another engineer.

I'm pretty sure completely neutering engineer's teamwork abilities isn't the solution to class stacking, and even though the rescue ranger is a powerful weapon, having it heal less probably isn't the ideal way to nerf it.

[QUOTE=Antary;52403762]They whack the building a couple of times and realize that they can't fix or upgrade the ally's sentry. What's so confusing about this?[/QUOTE] I've seen engineers repeatedly whack their own guns while out of ammo for an extended duration of time. ... There are still people trying to use the Sticky/Rocket jumper to inflict damage :(

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52403527]Oh no, I agree [B]5 sentries[/B] on a payload last is complete unbreakable bullshit and [B]I have absolutely no clue how to fix it[/B].[/QUOTE] Class limits?

[QUOTE=Punchy;52403326]You believe the rescue ranger already has fair downsides (no metal required to upgrade) and that teamstacked defense engineers aren't in any way a problem?[/QUOTE] 1: I dont have any problems with the current nerf Valve wants to implement to the RR, but any other nerf is unnecesary. 2: No, is not like demo or medic does not exist at all. And even then, thats a horrible team composition, which is very easy to counter.

[QUOTE=ambaxtoxin;52403778]Class limits?[/QUOTE] Class limits in casual would be a hot subject of debate.

I wanna see what people are expecting: The way the blog post is worded (as always) makes it very "open". You think we are going to get another Blog Post with more changes before the Update, or just the Update with the new changes?

[QUOTE=Fluury;52403811] You think we are going to get another Blog Post with more changes before the Update, or just the Update with the new changes?[/QUOTE] Well I mean... [IMG]https://i.gyazo.com/6a04defeb68b1edad5b538c9766fab8f.png[/IMG] Them saying "not ready for review" means they will most likely put them up for debate later.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52403811]I wanna see what people are expecting: The way the blog post is worded (as always) makes it very "open". You think we are going to get another Blog Post with more changes before the Update, or just the Update with the new changes?[/QUOTE] I'm willing to bet it'll just be the update, since people seem generally complacent about the changes, there wasn't anything that caused super outrage like the phlog buff back in the day.

[QUOTE=Trekintosh;52403266]Engie is only absurdly strong in pubs in large numbers or with very strong team coordination. The majority of Dane's proposed changes would only affect that situation.[/QUOTE] The one suggestion he made you're referring to is supposed to make pubs more bearable, but not all of his proposed changes revolve strictly around pubs. He's basically listing engie's flaws across the board, pubs, highlander, and even 6s, and honestly, even if I disagree with pretty much all of his proposed solutions, I strongly agree with his general sentiment. Engineer's huge slant towards defense makes him horrible both in pubs (where he causes stalemates) and comp (where offense is the best defense), and besides, playing engie supportively/dynamically/offensively is heaps more fun than turtling.

[QUOTE=X marks it;52403936]Well I mean... [IMG]https://i.gyazo.com/6a04defeb68b1edad5b538c9766fab8f.png[/IMG] Them saying "not ready for review" means they will most likely put them up for debate later.[/QUOTE] But at the same time, them saying "sneak peak" also implied that we won't be able to discuss everything.

So let's be real guys. The update is most likely this or next week. The real question is, do you believe we'll see one of those "Get ready posts" like gun mettle or meet your match. I believe in a perfect world we get a be prepped post Wednesday then release Thursday with the short coming alongside it

[QUOTE=Dookas;52404149]So let's be real guys. The update is most likely this or next week. The real question is, do you believe we'll see one of those "Get ready posts" like gun mettle or meet your match. I believe in a perfect world we get a be prepped post Wednesday then release Thursday with the short coming alongside it[/QUOTE] I will blow a load into my pants if the update actually came out this week. I have a four day weekend coming up, and i think many people have the fourth of july off too. But i think to be real, and based on vibes i got from the post about how they are still working on a lot of changes to the other classes, i think its not gonna be till somewhere in July. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if we got it in August or September, but i truly dont know. This has been such a different time than usual, what with them skipping halloween and christmas update, and going for the longest time without an update, so i dont know what to expect.

[QUOTE=Dookas;52404149]So let's be real guys. The update is most likely this or next week. The real question is, do you believe we'll see one of those "Get ready posts" like gun mettle or meet your match. I believe in a perfect world we get a be prepped post Wednesday then release Thursday with the short coming alongside it[/QUOTE] Its unlikely that we'll see this before late July, if you think about it. They gave a gentle reminder to the workshop submitters only a few weeks ago (a process that takes forever to finalize and agree on payment percentages, as seen during the Invasion disaster) and have just recently released the balance change patch notes. Do you really think valve is going to redo balance changes that have (probably) been worked on for a year and a half with like a week's worth of feedback? The axed last year's smissmass and Halloween for this update, so I highly doubt it.

[QUOTE=DrVincentWolf;52402392]While I do not agree gameplay-wise I do wish Valve would play up that angle a bit in Pyro´s characterisation. I don´t know why but the whole "Pyro-Thinks-He-Spread-joy-But-Really-Kills-People" crosses a line for me. It would be much better if the Pyro was a remorseless killer like the other mercenaries.[/QUOTE] See I can deal with the explanation we got in Meet the Pyro, since it's essentially just "this lunatic thinks they're doing the right thing when as far as anyone else is concerned, they're the most monstrous of all" done in a more comical way. Heck, I even think the Magical Mercenary is pretty funny, just because of those great voicelines. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel the bile rise in my throat whenever I see a Scout (it's always a Scout) running around with a set named, painted, and decal'd after Pinkle-Dinkle's Marshmallow Bumhole. They introduced that shit at exactly the wrong time (or exactly the right time, if you look at it from the perspective of people looking to make a quick buck off the Brony meme).

Brony hats were a mistake

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijUTog0R_sM[/url] Guess Tyler thinks the update will be out this week.

[QUOTE=prizepool;52404325][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijUTog0R_sM[/url] Guess Tyler thinks the update will be out this week.[/QUOTE] I don't think that's likely. Mappers have been hearing to get their stuff on the workshop as soon as possible after the blog post, which suggests Valve hasn't locked-in the maps yet. Based off of other map-adding updates like last Halloween, there needs to be a 1-2 week window before the update where maps are confirmed and finalized with Valve. I'd say there'll be a July release based on that.

[QUOTE=prizepool;52404325][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijUTog0R_sM[/url] Guess Tyler thinks the update will be out this week.[/QUOTE] Even our news herald has fallen under the hype spell. But who knows, anyone could be right.