Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Void Skull;52404335]I don't think that's likely. Mappers have been hearing to get their stuff on the workshop as soon as possible after the blog post, which suggests Valve hasn't locked-in the maps yet. Based off of other map-adding updates like last Halloween, there needs to be a 1-2 week window before the update where maps are confirmed and finalized with Valve. I'd say there'll be a July release based on that.[/QUOTE] I'm saying July 6th

[QUOTE=Serious_Greg;52404349]nah, not really[/QUOTE] Really?

[QUOTE=Fluury;52404001]But at the same time, them saying "sneak peak" also implied that we won't be able to discuss everything.[/QUOTE] i'll just say it's coming out tomorrow hoping the second part of my prophecy comes true. who knows

I don't think we'll be getting another balance blogpost before the update. They care very much about "surprising" the playerbase

This also doesn't necessarily indicate anything, but the only time we're ever had a late-late june update was Pyromania @ June 27th 2012. Every other year has been Between May 17th and June 18th (as well as 23rd which rides the line) or between July 2nd and July 8th (two of the three here being the last two years). Given that their last few years landed in July I feel like if there's ever a date to guess it would be withing the first two weeks of then.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52404338]Even our news herald has fallen under the hype spell. But who knows, anyone could be right.[/QUOTE] You're saying it like he never did before.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52404388]i'll just say it's coming out tomorrow hoping the second part of my prophecy comes true. who knows[/QUOTE] The 6th my man, the 6th. Im feeling it in my bones. We will [B]not[/B] reach the 1 year anniversary.

like people have said before, the tf team doesn't follow any schedule with releasing updates and only releases them once they're done and polished, so assuming the update has a specific "drop time" based on previous updates is not the greatest of ideas

[QUOTE=Punchy;52404414]Pyromania @ June 27th 2012. [/QUOTE] wouldn't tomorrow be the 5-year anniversary of Pyromania, then? I mean, I don't think Valve really cares, but...

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52404554]wouldn't tomorrow be the 5-year anniversary of Pyromania, then? I mean, I don't think Valve really cares, but...[/QUOTE] Yes, It would be a sensible reason to plan for the 27th but given previous information like the recent announcement about workshop content and the weapon blogpost I feel like it's safe to say we've still got a fair amount of time before they're actually prepared to ship. Had they released those posts a few weeks prior late june may have been a fair guess, but given how they've acted the past year I feel like if they were planning to release it soon they would make it more clearly apparent.

Here's what I've emailed to the TF team. Not really expecting anybody to read all of this but feel free to. You guys should send Valve feedback on parts of the blog post that you think are most important as well. [QUOTE]First of all, I want you guys to know how awesome it is that you're giving us a look at the design rationale for the balance changes you're looking at, and giving us a chance to give feedback on new stats. Here are my suggestions regarding the changes you've proposed so far. I've left some weapons out because I did not have a strong opinion on them. Panic Attack This is of course a drastic improvement to the original design, which didn't make much sense for anybody who used a shotgun as a secondary weapon (though there was niche use for engi as a "prefiring around corners for burst damage" gun like the beggar's bazooka, since engi's shotgun is his primary). However, the new design still seems somewhat confusing to me in some aspects. The gun has a faster switch speed, with overall greater potential DPS at point blank, and wider spread. That makes enough sense to me. As the name implies, you can use it when you get ambushed to quickly get some higher burst damage out on close-up enemies, at the expense of ranged ability. However, the final stat seems a bit wonky. It seems to me that the function of this spread increasing over time stat is to make the gun less and less effective the longer the engagement lasts, so that it's most effective as a burst-damage counter to ambushers, and can't be used very effectively beyond that niche. It also seems to add a higher skill ceiling to the gun, as a player with good enough aim who can stay alive at point blank range would be able to deal a lot of damage. However, it sort of sounds like you're suggesting that the gun's spread increase will reset every time you release the fire button. The issue here is that that, depending on how this is implemented, the player might be able to release the fire button between every shot, allowing them to stay at relatively low spread without reducing their firing rate (by tapping the fire button instead of holding it), negating one of the gun's main downsides. This could be fixed by having a spread recovery period à la the Ambassador. It would be important to communicate this spread recovery information to the player, which could be done by increasing the size of the player's crosshairs as the spread increases, and reducing it back to normal during the recovery period. Ambassador I know there's a lot of controversey surrounding this change, but I think it's over-all for the better. Encouraging spies to stand around on the other side of the map to get kills doesn't seem like a very good idea. However, I don't think a straight-up nerf of 50% reduced damage on first-shots instead of perfect accuracy on first-shots is necessarily a good idea. Given that the ambassador spy will now need to be closer to the enemy, they'll probably also need to be dodging enemy fire while trying to land headshots, which seems like it will make for a really high skill floor. Instead, you could make it so ALL shots are 50% more accurate, to compensate for the reduced range and increased vulnerability. This might be what you were planning already, it's not entirely clear in the blog post. Eternal Reward It seems to me that buffing disguises at the expense of cloak isn't a very good tradeoff. Cloak is much more powerful than disguise, because everybody already spychecks religiously. If an enemy sees a teammate, they're either too busy to spycheck, in which case you hardly need a cloak at all to backstab them, or they shoot you immediately, in which case the disguise doesn't do you any good. Compared to the ability to go anywhere in the enemy's base without them knowing, it seems to me that maximizing your cloak is more useful than a slightly increased chance at some chain stabs, especially when the disguise on kill is still very obvious to moderately experienced players. As a low-level pub weapon the item might be viable, but trading out the cloak penalties for sometime less extreme would be my recommendation. Sandman Removing the disarm mechanic is definitely an improvement, I think you could go farther with this. Any slows are very annoying in Team Fortress 2, and on the sandman it doesn't even seem to make much sense as an attack for the scout. A slightly slower enemy doesn't help scout much because scout's close-range burst damage shotgun isn't that much easier to hit against slower enemies. The fact that the ball people for longer the further they are away from the scout is makes this even more confusing, since the scout can't capitalize on a long-distance stun with his short range primary weapons. Instead, I would replace this mechanic by turning the sandman into a simple ranged damage option. The ball moves fast, deals decent damage, and has no stun effect at all. This gives scout a way to soften up targets before moving in with the scattergun, without using an annoying and fairly pointless stun mechanic. Bonk! Atomic Punch I actually thought Bonk! was in a pretty good place already, unchanged. You can get past sentries and really dangerous areas, but you couldn't actually do anything while you were in them, and you don't have a pistol at all. However, slowing scout is absolutly suicide for him. At -25% he's already seriously gimped, and at -65% he's guaranteed dead to the first enemy that meets him. I don't really see why Bonk! needs a nerf at all, being able to get around the enemy while showing them exactly where you are was never THAT powerful, and removing scout's survivabiliy for 5 seconds after the effect wears off would make it useless. Pocket Pistol The changes to this weapon seem very good, but it's worth noting that part of the reason why the pistol's fall damage stat isn't useful is because of the changes to the Baby Face's Blaster. If the BFB were a viable unlock, there would be more incentive to use the fall damage negating stat. Frankly I think reverting the BFB to its original state before any balance changes were made would turn that gun into a far more interesting and viable option, while also making the fall damage stat on the pocket pistol actually useful. Crit a Cola This one's a bit hard to judge without being able to personally try it out. While I like the removal of the speed boost, there's now no extra danger to the scout until AFTER they've taken a minicrit scattergun shot, which could be enough to oneshot a light class, or leave a medic with 8 health. I feel like you still need some way to counter the scout before he runs in and oneshots somebody, because giving the cola no downside (besides lack of pistol) until he has already oneshot somebody seems a little nuts. Atomizer The new design seems to really muscle in on the Winger's turf. It will now be totally pointless to equip both at once, because they do exactly the same thing and can't both be active at the same time. I'm also very confused on the mini-crit melee attack design. Why is there a 15% melee damage penalty and a deploy time penalty if this bat has a stat that implies it's supposed to be used as an actual means of dealing damage as opposed to a strict utility item? Whatever use the minicrit melee attack might have seems negated by the massive deploy time penalty and the reduced damage (and of course the need to be akwardly jumping around at point blank to even get the minicrit bonus). Since the scattergun is such a powerful tool at point blank range, I typically only use the bat when my clip is empty and I need a bit of quick damage. By giving this bat a long deploy time, its use as a source of quick damage seems to be pretty much eliminated. Given that this bat is not a good source of damage in cases where the bat would be the best choice, I'm struggling to see any reason for the minicrit stat to exist. Ultimately, the atomizer now seems like a less useful winger. At this point, if a triple jump passive is off the table, then I think a completely new design is in order. Flying Guillotine These changes seem really good, the crit combos were rather frustrating before and the new long range recharge mechanic seems like a lot of fun. B.A.S.E Jumper I rarely see the base jumper even used anymore, I don't understand why it would need such a huge nerf. I've certainly never felt frustrated fighting against it. I don't really see how it would ever be useful to have to effectively stand still in the air for several seconds unable to dodge anything or lose your high ground. I can't see any reason to use this over the gunboats if the entire point of the weapon (being able to avoid projectiles more easily) is now negated. Mantreads These changes are fantastic. The gunboats have been pretty useless since they were added, but giving 3X air control and resistance to knockback at the expense of high self-damage compared to the gunboats sounds like it would make for a really fun weapon that could seriously change how soldier is played in interesting ways. Danger Shield The previous design was a big problem, allowing snipers to quickscope others while being immune to quickscopes themselves. The new design removes this, but replaces it with something a bit odd. Resistance to pyros doesn't quite seem worth giving up a whole item slot, since afterburn from flares can be pretty quickly dealt with. Now, I don't know exactly what you guys are cooking up for the pyro update, so maybe pyro will be more of a threat to sniper after the update launches, making this change make more sense. Razorback I'm not as big into competitive, so I wasn't aware that pocketing snipers was such an issue in that setting, but I do like the regenerating shield. It seems a lot less annoying than having to walk back to spawn if it breaks. Vita Saw These are some very nice changes. Instead of encouraging risk-reward hunting of enemies for extra uber like the ubersaw, this new design lets players fight back against enemies that are flanking or ambushing them, in a last-ditch effort to save some uber when they know they are going to die. This sounds like it would make for a fun playstyle where you can actually do something about those attacking enemies that you can't kill as medic, without turning the medic into a killing machine. Crossbow While I like the changes here, I don't think they go anywhere close to far enough for nerfing the crossbow. Compared to all of medic's other syringe gun options, the crossbow is a no-brainer. Why would you ever choose unreliable syringes over a high burst-damage, long-range gun with a big healing ability? At the moment medic has one viable option for his syringe guns. Either the crossbow should get some big nerfs, or the syringe guns should get some big buffs. Miniguns I like these changes a lot, making the accuracy and damage consistant across the board is a good thing. I still think the crosshair should change in size (a la the ambassador) to represent the changing accuracy and damage, as at the moment information on the ramp-up is not given to the player at all. I hope you'll take my feedback into consideration. Thanks for reading! [/QUOTE]

Oh, they'll find ways to surprise us alright.. Have MvM working on day 1, and I'll be surprised for sure.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52403517]I'm honestly surprised to see so much resistance to the idea of removing the ability to repair/upgrade others' buildings. It's such a simple solution with basically no effect outside of stacking. I don't see how repairing other people's buildings is supposed to be some paragon of teamwork.[/QUOTE] The simple solution is class limits. I don't know why the casual community hates them so much, but it needs to be done. Classes like Engineer, Sniper and Spy should have a limit of 2 per team.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52403234][video]https://youtu.be/KDICaSDMjXY[/video] I don't know about you guys, but I think this video is terrible and I hope Valve totally ignores him.[/QUOTE] Engineer stacking is terrible for the game. I'm surprised a Engineer main would actually admit it.

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52404625]The simple solution is class limits. I don't know why the casual community hates them so much, but it needs to be done. Classes like Engineer, Sniper and Spy should have a limit of 2 per team.[/QUOTE] Because some people only play one or two classes; for example, I'd rather staple my arm than be forced into playing Scout.

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52404625]The simple solution is class limits. I don't know why the casual community hates them so much, but it needs to be done. Classes like Engineer, Sniper and Spy should have a limit of 2 per team.[/QUOTE] they're camping their last with 2 sentries 2 heavies and 2 meds while 2 ebin gibus spies on my team can't get anything done, I'm stuck watching it unfold while being railroaded into heavy, my least favorite class that [i]I[/i] can't get anything done with no thanks

[QUOTE=Oizen;52404642]Engineer stacking is terrible for the game. I'm surprised a Engineer main would actually admit it.[/QUOTE] Dane is very much against the "turtling" kind of engineering, he tries to encourage engineers to get out from behind their sentries and be more a "supportive" engi.

So, every so often I see people referring to the "invasion disaster" and how it was an absolute shitfest. Where can I find info on this?

golly, what a nice thought it is to think that soon i'll maybe have interest in playing this game with brand new content warms my lil heart

[QUOTE=fendermcbender;52404780]golly, what a nice thought it is to think that soon i'll maybe have interest in playing this game with brand new content warms my lil heart[/QUOTE] Those DR/Ambassador/Danger Shield changes make me excited to play more than new additions.

why do people think if there was to be class limits it'd be for every single class? it is pretty easy to just have the engineer have a cap based on amount of ppl in the team, for example one engy with five people, two with ten and so on. Ideas do not have to be complicated or intricate for them to be effective, which seems to be the forefront of a lot of peoples thoughts when it comes to 'balancing' tf2 diminishing the engineers power in order to stop everyone going engy on last point defense payload really won't stop people from doing it, what will stop people is flatout not letting them and this is excluding how much of a terrible idea it is to change a class around one gamemode situation that occurs in the final minutes and doesn't always occur to begin with also I disagree with a lot of things in that video, mainly having more than one class being able to heal at an effective level. Healing is an insanely strong mechanic in any game esp in first person shooters, its also the reason why medic is so valuable, strong and relevant because he's the only one who can do the job. Getting other classes to do it devalues the medic and also further diminishes class identity for what is effectively a nonexistent issue The big two words to keep in mind with changing anything like this is power creep. one of the big golden rules when it comes to nerfing/buffing anything in videogames is to not nerf a class into oblivion and rather buff others up to its standpoint as it helps to prevent power creep as well as redundant items, classes, specs, so on. obviously this is within logical situations where a class has an edge by design, and not just flatout twice as better than other classes so many ideas are obviously fed on the starvation of content, communication and a feedback cycle to the point of halfbaked ideas that make no sense and have no forethought into how it'd legitimately affect the game, rather than just how it'd benefit or degrade x situation that y player comes across infrequent/frequently which is 0 basis to warrant such drastic changes to fundamentals of the videogame simply because it's a situational environment trying to warrant a baseline change, which in turn affects every other environment and situation leading to further issues p.s class limits are a good idea because it promotes team composition even in casual, which in turn makes the game more fun rather than some new guy joining with 5 snipers and 4 spies and promptly losing p.p.s casual isn't negligible, it is flatout ignorant and thoughtless to treat competitive as the 'one true way to balance the game'. Competition is when two people are given two basic tools and try to outdo one another by doing something exceptional. It is not when two people are given exceptional tools and are made to do basic things.

Class limits are generally a good idea, especially if they want matchmaking to be taken seriously. No one likes fighting 2 medics. And thats pretty much Engineer in casual.

[QUOTE=Power Glove;52404839] The big two words to keep in mind with changing anything like this is power creep. one of the big golden rules when it comes to nerfing/buffing anything in videogames is to not nerf a class into oblivion and rather buff others up to its standpoint as it helps to prevent power creep as well as redundant items, classes, specs, so on. obviously this is within logical situations where a class has an edge by design, and not just flatout twice as better than other classes[/QUOTE] I keep re-reading this part. I feel like there must be a typo in here somewhere. It seems to say that power creep prevents power creep?

[QUOTE=Oizen;52404841]No one likes fighting 2 medics.[/QUOTE] So why don't we look into why and come up with changes to the class to mitigate those issues rather than arbitrarily locking people from playing a class? Class limits are the worst. It's below stun-tier design, it's like random crits to the nth degree. There are better options.

[QUOTE=Drury;52404740]they're camping their last with 2 sentries 2 heavies and 2 meds while 2 ebin gibus spies on my team can't get anything done, I'm stuck watching it unfold while being railroaded into heavy, my least favorite class that [i]I[/i] can't get anything done with no thanks[/QUOTE] Heavy is the only class you can play besides Engie, Sniper and Spy? Also Spies are shit at pushes all on their own, why would you want to go Spy. In the past, communities have run servers with limits on those 3 classes and it resulted in more fun, balanced gameplay.

I'm pretty sure everyone would be fine if the only class limits were on spy sniper and engineer until reworks happen. Maybe an exception or two for experienced or skilled players.

[QUOTE=Drury;52404872]So why don't we look into why and come up with changes to the class to mitigate those issues rather than arbitrarily locking people from playing a class? Class limits are the worst. It's below stun-tier design, it's like random crits to the nth degree. There are better options.[/QUOTE] Class limits make more sense than adding arbitrary stats that only kick in if there are multiples of one class.

[QUOTE=Oizen;52405017]Class limits make more sense than adding arbitrary stats that only kick in if there are multiples of one class.[/QUOTE] You mean like the arbitrary stat that makes both medic's ubers build slower when they heal the same patient? That's already in the game. We can take this philosophy the extra mile if need be. Make medics impossible to be overhealed. Make overheals belong to the medic who gave them and make it impossible to extend other medic's overheal.

man, i just want an update now

[QUOTE=Drury;52405093]You mean like the arbitrary stat that makes both medic's ubers build slower when they heal the same patient? That's already in the game. We can take this philosophy the extra mile if need be. Make medics impossible to be overhealed. Make overheals belong to the medic who gave them and make it impossible to extend other medic's overheal.[/QUOTE] Medics can still heal eachother You still have 2 uber meters to work with. Unless you're going to tell me one medic just isn't allowed to uber, which falls under what I said earlier.