Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

I've played on community servers that limited engineers to 2 on defense and it was way more fun than servers that don't have a limit. That's why I'm still all for class limits (both in casual and comp). Sure you wouldn't have crazy fun shit like "Everyone go Heavy" but the vast majority of games would be more enjoyable. I'm still sticking by my 2 each of spy, sniper and engie and 3 each of everything else I would like to see in casual. I'm not sure exactly what you would do with comp (if you would want to make it the same as current 6s or something else) but if Valve adds class limits to comp they really need to do add class limits to casual as well if they're serious about considering the game all one player base and community (same with random crits and bullet spread, turn those off in causal Valve).

[QUOTE=Oizen;52405171]Medics can still heal eachother You still have 2 uber meters to work with. Unless you're going to tell me one medic just isn't allowed to uber, which falls under what I said earlier.[/QUOTE] Making healing/uber building slower with more medics via previously mentioned nerfs (and maybe some more on the same theme) would make each uber build twice as long, removing the advantage. Point is to think about how things can work rather by how they can't. Class limits are an admission of defeat, and besides just terrible. Games designed around competitive don't need them, they're just crude artificial limits imposed by the community when the game's ruleset isn't in a good shape for comp. An actual game developer doesn't need to rely on such crude design. Why go for the subpar bandaid solution when you can attack the root of the problem directly? [QUOTE=Snowshoe;52404951]Heavy is the only class you can play besides Engie, Sniper and Spy? Also Spies are shit at pushes all on their own, why would you want to go Spy. In the past, communities have run servers with limits on those 3 classes and it resulted in more fun, balanced gameplay.[/QUOTE] Well I like Spy and I trust myself to be able to stab heavies and sap sentries on a pub to allow my team pushing, but the situation could be literally anything else. Say they got 2 half-decent snipers and you got 2 sucky ones, you're good at clicking heads but there's nothing you can do. Or you suck at literally every class and just want to play your favorite one, but you can't because class limits, well I guess you're just not allowed to have fun with videogames today. Class limits are just lame.

People who say class limits are good are the same type of people who thought Ster and a few other famous people's servers were the best for removing the pre-nerf mini from the gunslinger and blacklisting the Holiday Punch. [B]ALSO[/B] [QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52403234][video]https://youtu.be/KDICaSDMjXY[/video] I don't know about you guys, but I think this video is terrible and I hope Valve totally ignores him.[/QUOTE] Dane is a goof who would think removing a few key parts of the engineer's playkit would make him more fun to play as, but in reality it would just make it easier to roll over in both comp and casual. This is not a good thing, and would basically turn engineering from manager of turret/teleporter/dispenser funtimes to a sluggish chore and bore. It takes a actual team effort, and some decently experienced team members/pocket pyros to stop a good Badwater last push and turn it into a hard engineer hold, not just three engineers. I hope valve doesn't take his ideas.

Class limits ruin goofy unviable bullshit. Sure, if I wanted stupid bullshit on demand, I could go to a class wars server, but if I wanted to just not help the team and go combat (Engineer/Medic/Sniper/Spy), not only would I be a detriment to the team, but I'd be doing an injustice to someone who legitimately wanted to help the team and do something useful as any of the above classes. That's how I feel anyways

I would probably tell a guy to go fuck himself if he was doing awful at medic and wouldn't swap off the now [B][U]permanently locked off[/U][/B] one medic slot because he "wanted to play medic with his friend so yeah". Said friend would be a cardboard-tier scout he would be pocketing onto the whole match. He also get called bad and to fuck himself.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52405102]A set of Spy weapons specifically made for a very sneaky style of play (though you probably wouldn't want to use them all together). Revolver: (i) Wherever the bullet hits is where the "firing sound" happens. (The gun itself is a silenced pistol, the bullets have a microphone attached that, after contacting a wall or a person, make the sound of the stock revolver firing. Crazy Spytech shit I guess) (+) On MOUSE2, while disguised: Fire the weapon selected of the class you're disguised as (whatever the weapon is doesn't hurt anyone). (-) 25% damage penalty Sapper Replacement: (i) On MOUSE1: Creates an invisible aura around yourself that makes silent everything within a 10 foot radius of yourself for 10 seconds. (-) Takes 15 seconds to regenerate (after the effects are over). (-) You can't hear anything going on around you (besides in-game comms). Watch: Cloak Type: Killer Unseen (i) After successfully killing an enemy by backstabbing them, the cloak activates instantly, and the user becomes completely invisible. (as if cloak fade time were 0s, similar to Dead Ringer) (+) For the first two seconds of cloak, the player does not flicker after being damaged or by bumping into the enemy (-) +100% cloak fade time (when used outside of backstabbing an enemy) (-) -25% cloak time (-) 20% damage vulnerability while in use (nullifies the resistance buff from a while ago. might be unnecessary?) Knife: (i) On backstab: The enemy is marked for death silently (multiple enemies can be marked for death) (+) Can backstab without losing a disguise (+) +35% swing speed (-) Backstabs do no damage (-) +50% cloak and decloak fade time Thoughts: The revolver basically just combines two sneaky ideas I've had for Spy for a while but never thought would do really well. It will make people a lot more paranoid though, since the stock revolver isn't exactly an unpopular choice in competitive. The "secondary fire" for this weapon is basically just meant to make Spies more believable in their disguises, which means the enemy will be spychecking everyone, leading to more paranoia, which could be good or bad. The sapper replacement might be overpowered/the only thing people use/banned in 6s. Apparently having ears is one of Spy's biggest counters, so an item that removes the enemy's ability to hear him might be overpowered. Also gels with the DR extremely well. It would also silence the enemy's scream on backstab, so it'd be really powerful in Casual. The watch might be banned in 6s, though it's the playstyle I had in mind when making it (get a pick, get away). Also you can't get chainstabs with it, so nobody will use it in Casual :V. It will gel well with the new knife I just came up with as well as pretty much all the other knives (but especially the Big Earner.) The knife, which I thought of last, is an idea I've seen thrown around quite a bit over the past few years, the Spy trading his one-shotting ability for a more team-focused "kill this guy" mentality. The issue with it is that the idea as a whole is far too weak. So I've given it some more meat. The idea is that the Spy, if he's good at not missing backstabs, gets behind the enemy and marks maybe 1 or 2 of them for death, and alerts his team. Team wipes out marked targets, and, now outnumbering the enemy, kills the rest of them. The new watch would allow the team to make easy pickings from a distance with less risk on the spy's part.[/QUOTE] x-post original weapons thread, some new weapons i came up with for spy that might make him viable in 6s. who knows. [editline]26th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Stroheim;52405289]I would probably tell a guy to go fuck himself if he was doing awful at medic and wouldn't swap off the now [B][U]permanently locked off[/U][/B] one medic slot because he "wanted to play medic with his friend so yeah". Said friend would be a cardboard-tier scout he would be pocketing onto the whole match. He also get called bad and to fuck himself.[/QUOTE] well, you could make it so that if you die, you're "no longer that class", and somebody can switch in. this means that people who die quickly won't stay as whatever class they are, and people good at the game who live longer will get to keep their class choice longer. idk

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52405321]well, you could make it so that if you die, you're "no longer that class", and somebody can switch in. this means that people who die quickly won't stay as whatever class they are, and people good at the game who live longer will get to keep their class choice longer. idk[/QUOTE] Staying alive for longest doesn't mean you're being effective with the class. I could just conga in the spawnroom, and thus not have to ever worry about getting killed, but that doesn't mean i'm actually being useful. Alternatively, I could be playing aggressively, doing a lot of damage, or provide some really good support in the middle of battle, but I end up dying faster, and hence able to be booted from the class due to this arbritary standard, despite conyributing to the team and to the game in a very meaningful way. Also the issue of people who want to play the class, who were given the first choice suddenly getting ejected from it. Not very fun. Nothing stopping a stubborn player from just throwing untill the class re-opens to him when that happens.

[QUOTE=MysticLlama;52405367]Staying alive for longest doesn't mean you're being effective with the class. I could just conga in the spawnroom, and thus not have to ever worry about getting killed, but that doesn't mean i'm actually being useful. Also the issue of people who want to play the class, who were given the first choice suddenly getting ejected from it. Not very fun. Nothing stopping a stubborn player from just throwing untill the class re-opens to him when that happens.[/QUOTE] make it so that if you stay in spawn longer than... say, a minute, a vote will automatically be made to kick you for idling.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52405380]make it so that if you stay in spawn longer than... say, a minute, a vote will automatically be made to kick you for idling.[/QUOTE] It was an exagerated example, but still, there would be nothing stopping me from finding a nice nook or corner of the map away from the heat, and conga-ing in a circle there. The point though, is still that life length does not nesesarily corelate to effectiveness as that class. The pocket medic to the heavy that's trying to cross-map with his minigun versus the medic on the frontlines, spreading heals to everyone he can, but also getting shot at from every direction. Who's more useful? The Battlement sniper hanging back from the heat, or the sniper up on the frontlines with his team. Who's more useful? The C&D spy sitting in corner waiting for the *perfect* stab opportunity, or the agressive Stock Cloak spy who's doing his best to distract and pick targets, but also getting shot at. Who's more useful? etc.

[QUOTE=MysticLlama;52405395]It was an exagerated example, but still, there would be nothing stopping me from finding a nice nook or corner of the map away from the heat, and conga-ing in a circle there. The point though, is still that life length does not nesesarily corelate to effectiveness as that class. The pocket medic to the heavy that's trying to cross-map with his minigun versus the medic on the frontlines, spreading heals to everyone he can, but also getting shot at from every direction. Who's more useful? The Battlement sniper hanging back from the heat, or the sniper up on the frontlines with his team. Who's more useful? The C&D spy sitting in corner waiting for the *perfect* stab opportunity, or the agressive Stock Cloak spy who's doing his best to distract and pick targets, but also getting shot at. Who's more useful? etc.[/QUOTE] Hm... How about basing class limits based on damage/kills done/healing/engythings/etc? like, the person who's getting a 1/3 k/d ratio would be told to try a new class, while the person who's getting a 7/1 k/d ratio as a scout but really wants to play soldier can change to that class after person told dies? i mean, that's pretty rude to new players but idk. better players get to choose or something

If he has a negative K/D, but is working with objectives effectively, or dealing good damage/support, the points still stand. And for the other delimiters, what would you compare the value to? A Global average? What if the game differs from that average? Would you base it from previous players' attempts at the class in the same game? That would again highlight the aformentioned issues. Only this time you might lock someone out from the class entierly because he was deemed "too ineffective" to play it. Would you base it on a pattern of comparative performance, based on how an individual player does per match compared to other players in those matches? Again, the issues already presented come forth, but now we have the issue of "chronically ineffective" players (i.e most newbies) that don't get first dibs or favor [I]ever[/I] because of how the did previously. And with how most players' skill progression works, it's going to take a long time for them to escape that ineffective status, all other issues notwithstanding. It might then also just enourage more match-throwing or super-passive gameplay to prevent dying to begin with. Either way, it's still too fustrating for everyone if you're not willing/able to play another class, and like you said, it also serves to hurt the newbies more.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52405419]Hm... How about basing class limits based on damage/kills done/healing/engythings/etc? like, the person who's getting a 1/3 k/d ratio would be told to try a new class, while the person who's getting a 7/1 k/d ratio as a scout but really wants to play soldier can change to that class after person told dies? i mean, that's pretty rude to new players but idk. better players get to choose or something[/QUOTE] How about no class limits at all? I don't want to be that guy but enforcing class limits is prone to having many problems no matter how you look at it and whatever tweaks you do to it, because the concept itself is inherently flawed for a casual game where people just want to have fun. Being able to retain your class by dealing damage/getting kills would not really change anything, it would just cause people to seek out kills rather than playing the objective. Bad players would be able to retain their class and block legitimate players from switching to it by unloading into a sentry nest/groups of people or taking potshots at other players, while people dying to get the intel or push the cart would get kicked out of their class because they can't stay alive. TF2 has some bullshit like any other game, you could die to a random crit, get headshotted/backstabbed after walking out of spawn, and that's besides the fact that it's a team game and if your team is unable to deal with the current situation you'll likely also be punished as a result by dying a lot and having less freedom to participate in the objective/getting kills. You can't fix all problems because some of them exist because people are different, have different skills and excel at different things, people shouldn't be punished because they aren't particularly good at the game or want to try out classes they don't play often to get better at them. No offense but if you really want class limits in casual you should just go play on community servers that enforce those.

How about making class limits a vote-able option? Said voting option could potentially be further divided into class specific limits, or a general limit on all classes.

I'd gladly be forced into playing a class I usually dont play if it means that I get to play with a team that isnt composed of 8 support classes, and 1 demoman.

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52404625]The simple solution is class limits. I don't know why the casual community hates them so much, but it needs to be done. Classes like Engineer, Sniper and Spy should have a limit of 2 per team.[/QUOTE] Class limits have always been a stupid limitation on community servers. There are always those people who play class X and cannot get anything done while you are powerless to pick that class and make things happen. If you cannot pick a class that you need to pick in order to help out your team, then the game has failed you and everyone on your team. It's really rare occurance when people do not switch off from having too many x class once you actually tell them and explain them why it is necessary for not having 4 snipers in a team. It's also as rare as 5 people stacking as engineers at the same time making fun of others. I've seen this happen and without other classes supporting those engineers, they get taken down easily. If anything is an issue, it's displaying the class signs on scoreboard. While it's easy to check who plays which class, it also encourages people to pick the classes that others play for the people who are new or do not know better. This should be put behind some advanced setting or atleast behind playhours so also new people don't go for the class that others already play. Before they added those to the scoreboard, you could only see classes from the class pick menu.

Bit late to discuss Dane's proposed Engineer changes, but personally, I'm not too sure about returning the Pomson to being a primary version of the Bison. It would just give Engine even more power to completely deny an area, by letting him participate more in spamming out chokepoints from a distance. I'm actually curious to see how it would play out as a mid-range hitscan rifle with particle effects similar to the CAPPER. I think it'd present an interesting choice, allowing less aggressive support Engineers the option to swap large amounts of close-range burst damage for more consistent midrange damage, and I'll be totally honest with you, a big part of this is just that I've wanted [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=270664350&searchtext="]either[/URL] of [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=220891608"]these[/URL] in the game for a long time and this is the closest I'm probably ever going to get

Agreed, while i occasionally enjoy some combat engineering, especially back in the days when minisentries deployed way faster, i managed to be really offensive class with it. Engineer is mainly a defensive class and should be as such and not be able to be that showstopper class, except in defence. I can understand why Dane wants it to be more powerfull in offence, but there's other more suitable classes for offence play.

Also I really hope they'll add the unused Sitting Pyro taunt for the Update.

sitting Pyro can wait when we have the Engineers robo-dog on the line![video=youtube;1-HXL9A0nQ4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-HXL9A0nQ4[/video] Pyro has been out cuted.

From and including: Thursday, 7 July 2016 To and including: Tuesday, 27 June 2017 Result: 356 days nearly a year lads

I'm surprised so many people are strongly against the implementation of class limits when it it would solve a lot of balance issues that only seem to arise without them. Issues such as: *Everyone on your team deadweighting you on Sniper or Spy *Infinite pub stalemates wherein a thousand Engineers ensure that points like Barnblitz last (or any 5CP last) are nigh impossible to push, even with an Ubercharge Implementation of class limits would pretty handily solve both of those problems, and both of those problems are why a lot of my pubbing experience is so abysmal in comparison to playing Comp. Now, to be fair, getting locked out of playing your favorite class can suck. But at the same time, think about it this way: would you rather insist on being the third Spy and likely losing or would you rather play what the team needs you to and win? I obviously love playing Spy, even a glance at me can tell you that, but I also really don't like getting my nuts kicked into the back of my asshole if there's something I can do to prevent that. Like just playing a combat class instead. I have little doubt that class limits in Casual games would be so much better in the long-run to prevent the balance issues inherent in class-stacking and the sheer despair of knowing you can't win because over half of your team are Spy/Snipers at the bottom of the scoreboard. Hell, maybe just make a vote option to disable them if your team wants to do something goofy together.

[IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/257235652083580938/329269774460780545/1498556010936.png[/IMG] Happy birthday, friend

[QUOTE=Shaohs;52406562][IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/257235652083580938/329269774460780545/1498556010936.png[/IMG] Happy birthday, friend[/QUOTE] Too bad the Scorch Shot is such an annoying weapon now.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52406515]I'm surprised so many people are strongly against the implementation of class limits when it it would solve a lot of balance issues that only seem to arise without them. Issues such as: *Everyone on your team deadweighting you on Sniper or Spy *Infinite pub stalemates wherein a thousand Engineers ensure that points like Barnblitz last (or any 5CP last) are nigh impossible to push, even with an Ubercharge Implementation of class limits would pretty handily solve both of those problems, and both of those problems are why a lot of my pubbing experience is so abysmal in comparison to playing Comp. Now, to be fair, getting locked out of playing your favorite class can suck. But at the same time, think about it this way: would you rather insist on being the third Spy and likely losing or would you rather play what the team needs you to and win? I obviously love playing Spy, even a glance at me can tell you that, but I also really don't like getting my nuts kicked into the back of my asshole if there's something I can do to prevent that. Like just playing a combat class instead. I have little doubt that class limits in Casual games would be so much better in the long-run to prevent the balance issues inherent in class-stacking and the sheer despair of knowing you can't win because over half of your team are Spy/Snipers at the bottom of the scoreboard. Hell, maybe just make a vote option to disable them if your team wants to do something goofy together.[/QUOTE] Agreed. People have said if Valve added class limits people will bitch and moan until they get to play their favorite class. I think this could happen rarely but for the most part people will be okay with it. If it prevents stupid stalemates on maps like dustbowl, I'm all for it

[QUOTE=Shaohs;52406562][IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/257235652083580938/329269774460780545/1498556010936.png[/IMG] Happy birthday, friend[/QUOTE] I know valve doesnt honor "birthdays" like that but announcing the Pyro Update at the same date as the Pyromania Update? Who is with me [IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/rainbow.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=prizepool;52406595]Agreed. People have said if Valve added class limits people will bitch and moan until they get to play their favorite class. I think this could happen rarely but for the most part people will be okay with it. If it prevents stupid stalemates on maps like dustbowl, I'm all for it[/QUOTE] I think it more likely that people will bitch, moan, and votekick anybody not playing whatever they consider meta (like MvM currently). A mediocre engi taking 1 of 12 slots is more palatable than the same player taking up 1 of 2 slots.

I really really can't wait for: new flamethrower particle physics reworking of like all the pyro weapons mobility options? viability

[QUOTE=Fluury;52406610]I know valve doesnt honor "birthdays" like that but announcing the Pyro Update at the same date as the Pyromania Update? Who is with me [IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/rainbow.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] I think it's best to not get yourself hyped up for anything to happen before the summer sale ends (besides maybe the TF2 team finally getting around to answering the rest of VNN's questions).

All these new posts but no update :-( But hey, if these changes really happen its worth the wait Is campaign 2/pryo update supposed to fix comp also?

[QUOTE=Firetornado;52406664]Is campaign 2/pryo update supposed to fix comp also?[/QUOTE] yeah ideally they'll do comp with class limits and a wider map pool to encourage a variety of class-picking they've at least already dealt with a lot of problem weapons in 6s, which is likely to make it a better experience overall proper elo is confirmed, though, so we at least have that to look forward to