Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Firetornado;52406664]Is campaign 2/pyro update supposed to fix comp also?[/QUOTE] Theoretically. I think something was said about placement matches, etc and with the new changes fixing a ton of weapons previously banned in 6s, the experience should be more like the real thing.

[QUOTE=Firetornado;52406664]All these new posts but no update :-( But hey, if these changes really happen its worth the wait Is campaign 2/pryo update supposed to fix comp also?[/QUOTE] Maybe. Because situation with competitive is not good now (am I right?).

[QUOTE=Contra132;52406671]yeah ideally they'll do comp with class limits and a wider map pool to encourage a variety of class-picking they've at least already dealt with a lot of problem weapons in 6s, which is likely to make it a better experience overall proper elo is confirmed, though, so we at least have that to look forward to[/QUOTE] Awesome! If it works i know i will jump back into the game, hopefully others will too. Despite the length between updates i am hopeful for this games future once the comp community starts to take in the new players from comp mode. Now we just need a heavy update.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52406659]I think it's best to not get yourself hyped up for anything to happen before the summer sale ends (besides maybe the TF2 team finally getting around to answering the rest of VNN's questions).[/QUOTE] I know but uuuuuuugh, I just want the Update already. Can you really call someone impatient for this Update when literally almost an entire year passed?

[QUOTE=Contra132;52406671]yeah ideally they'll do comp with class limits and a wider map pool to encourage a variety of class-picking they've at least already dealt with a lot of problem weapons in 6s, which is likely to make it a better experience overall proper elo is confirmed, though, so we at least have that to look forward to[/QUOTE] it'd be cool if you could pick a "main" and it would try to hook you up with a team with a set of mains that makes sense in 6s: like, i say i'm a medic main, so it tries to set me up with one or two flank class mains (scout, pyro?), one or two power class mains (soldier, demo?), a defense main (heavy, engineer?), and a pick class main (spy, sniper?) now, if it can't find you a proper team, it will tell you, saying "be prepared to pick another class" or something. and with these new balance changes, i think prolander class limits might start making more sense. but for now, i think a 2 class limit across the board (except Medic) would be good for comp

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406691]it'd be cool if you could pick a "main" and it would try to hook you up with a team with a set of mains that makes sense in 6s: like, i say i'm a medic main, so it tries to set me up with one or two flank class mains (scout, pyro?), one or two power class mains (soldier, demo?), a defense main (heavy, engineer?), and a pick class main (spy, sniper?) now, if it can't find you a proper team, it will tell you, saying "be prepared to pick another class" or something.[/QUOTE] More matchmaker hell? Its slow already. We have 5 programmers, this would be terrible in my opinion. Plus it would encourage people to never switch class. No thanks

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406691]it'd be cool if you could pick a "main" and it would try to hook you up with a team with a set of mains that makes sense in 6s: like, i say i'm a medic main, so it tries to set me up with one or two flank class mains (scout, pyro?), one or two power class mains (soldier, demo?), a defense main (heavy, engineer?), and a pick class main (spy, sniper?) now, if it can't find you a proper team, it will tell you, saying "be prepared to pick another class" or something.[/QUOTE] that would nigh-immediately result in purgatory queue times. plus, using services like faceit and the such, I've found that most of the time people will be willing to work with you if you aren't good at something, especially if they actually want to win. for instance, 6s med has this whole skillset that I don't really know (basic heal order outside of rollouts is beyond me), and i've almost never had to play medic in faceit when I didn't want to. I feel like it's better to leave it in the hands of players as they join. Adding a whole other system would extend queue times and, even in the scenario you mention where you just get matched into a game anyways, would result in more than a little bit of player frustration.

Hey guys. I recently came up with a suggestion for the TFTeam, how to improve the TF2 economy a bit, what do you think of this suggestion? [t]http://i.imgur.com/pcyPrWY.png[/t]

[QUOTE=Firetornado;52406695]More matchmaker hell? Its slow already. We have 5 programmers, this would be terrible in my opinion. Plus it would encourage people to never switch class. No thanks[/QUOTE] well, in 6s, generally switching classes only happens when you're holding last (heavy, engineer, pyro) or going for a specific pick (sniper, spy) anyway. with the new update, however, a fulltime pyro might be viable, and a fulltime heavy might be possible (gru change). not holding out for fulltime spy, sniper, or engineer yet though. fulltime spy would require some core class buffs or some [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1250554&p=52405102#post52405102]new items[/url]. [editline]27th June 2017[/editline] -snip- [editline]27th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Contra132;52406701]that would nigh-immediately result in purgatory queue times. plus, using services like faceit and the such, I've found that most of the time people will be willing to work with you if you aren't good at something, especially if they actually want to win. for instance, 6s med has this whole skillset that I don't really know (basic heal order outside of rollouts is beyond me), and i've almost never had to play medic in faceit when I didn't want to. I feel like it's better to leave it in the hands of players as they join. Adding a whole other system would extend queue times and, even in the scenario you mention where you just get matched into a game anyways, would result in more than a little bit of player frustration.[/QUOTE] obviously at the moment something like this would make queue times ridiculous. but if the matchmaking system becomes actually good, whether it be in this update, the next, or the one after that, people might actually start playing it again, en masse. that's when changes like this would start making sense, so that you don't end up with a group of 6 that just wants to play sniper and spy.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406713]It'd be cool, but Valve will never let TF2's primary source of income be crafted for free, especially with such a ridiculous amount of refined in the market.[/QUOTE] The tool costs the same as a key (2,50$). It can only be obtained via Mann Co. store purchase, it can not be traded, how is that making a key with it for free?

[QUOTE=Robot Agent;52406757]The tool costs the same as a key (2,50$). It can only be obtained via Mann Co. store purchase, it can not be traded, how is that making a key with it for free?[/QUOTE] didn't see that part. why would you buy a tool to craft a key, using refined AND money you spent on it, when you could just buy the key

Why would anyone do that ever!?? It's just paying a key and 3 ref for a key, how does that make sense

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406761]didn't see that part. why would you buy a tool to craft a key, using refined AND money you spent on it, when you could just buy the key[/QUOTE] Maybe you should read the email in it's entirety, and give it some thought. Same goes for everyone.

[QUOTE=Robot Agent;52406769]Maybe you should read the email in it's entirety, and give it some thought. Same goes for everyone.[/QUOTE] you didn't answer the question. why would you buy a key crafting tool for the same price as a key, and lose 3 refined, when you could just buy a key?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406778]you didn't answer the question. why would you buy a key crafting tool for the same price as a key, and lose 3 refined, when you could just buy a key?[/QUOTE] He was just trying to make a helpful idea

-snip it was already asked-

[QUOTE=AD/HD;52406765]Why would anyone do that ever!?? It's just paying a key and 3 ref for a key, how does that make sense[/QUOTE] Okay, again, I guess people don't have the attention span to read. I didn't say anywhere in the email that's it's a perfect idea, that it's just a suggestion for Valve to brainstorm. What I had to say gave them a lot of material to work with, and I said that if they find any flaws, then they can just eliminated them. Your comment for example could be fixed if the value of the tool is a bit lower than the key (like 10-20 cents lower) so when using the 3 ref, the value of the crafted key would be the same as a purchased one.

[QUOTE=Robot Agent;52406792]Okay, again, I guess people don't have the attention span to read. I didn't say anywhere in the email that's it's a perfect idea, that it's just a suggestion for Valve to brainstorm. What I had to say gave them a lot of material to work with, and I said that if they find any flaws, then they can just eliminated them. Your comment for example could be fixed if the value of the tool is a bit lower than the key (like 10-20 cents lower) so when using the 3 ref, the value of the crafted key would be the same as a purchased one.[/QUOTE] you said you "couldn't find any flaws with this suggestion". i'd say people deciding to never buy it is a pretty large flaw

Personally I believe the most creative and most potential way of sinking metal would be making crafting hats more valuable. An idea I had, as an example, would be craft-exclusive styles for hats.

[QUOTE=Robot Agent;52406705]Hey guys. I recently came up with a suggestion for the TFTeam, how to improve the TF2 economy a bit, what do you think of this suggestion? [t]http://i.imgur.com/pcyPrWY.png[/t][/QUOTE] That doesn't make such sense to me. Why would I spent the full price of a key on...making a key, when I can just buy a key or trade the same amount of ref away from a key? Who would ever want to use this? If implemented into the game as suggested, this would do nothing to shrink ref inflation because there would be absolutely no incentive to use it if you don't like throwing your money away.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406802]you said you "couldn't find any flaws with this suggestion". i'd say people deciding to never buy it is a pretty large flaw[/QUOTE] Yea, I said it wasn't really meant to be bought, essentially, the only people who would really buy it, would be dumb F2P. But like I said in the email, the point of the tool is that it's basically supposed to be a guide stone, to show how much a key is worth. Think about it. If you had an item in the game that allows you to craft a key, with the use of 3 refs, why would anyone buy keys for 29 refs? They would just point to the fact that in-game, it costs 3 refs to make a key, and people couldn't argue with that, so they would just be forced to sell keys for 3 refs. The only reason this tool has to be purchased (and let's say this time for a slightly lower value than a key, so it can make up with the extra 3 refs that have to be used on it to make a key) is because if it was a crafting recipe, making keys would be for free, causing key inflation, and the destruction of the economy.

[QUOTE=Robot Agent;52406846]Think about it. If you had an item in the game that allows you to craft a key, with the use of 3 refs, why would anyone buy keys for 29 refs? They would just point to the fact that in-game, it costs 3 refs to make a key, and people couldn't argue with that, so they would just be forced to sell keys for 3 refs. The only reason this tool has to be purchased (and let's say this time for a slightly lower value than a key, so it can make up with the extra 3 refs that have to be used on it to make a key) is because if it was a crafting recipe, making keys would be for free, causing key inflation, and the destruction of the economy.[/QUOTE] No, it doesn't cost 3 refined to make a key. It costs $2.49 [I]and[/I] 3 refined to make a key, which makes no sense, because just buying a key costs less. It doesn't function as a "guide stone", either. The only guide stone for a key's worth are its price on the market, which is...$2.49. You can't make refined more valuable than it is because it doesn't have any real value. It is constantly generated, at no cost to the people who make it besides time. Keys, meanwhile, have a real value because they directly correspond to real life money. The more refined is generated, the less it is worth. You can't get around that, and even if you could, your solution makes literally no sense and wouldn't be the way to go about it.

I Think that scrap metal should know longer be able to be crafted

I feel like a more-interactive way to address the refined elephant in the room is to bring back chemistry sets. Both sets that create a cosmetic strangifier and sets that create collector's quality items. To keep things as a persistent sink rather than a 1-time thing, collector's items should come native with a counter (that starts at 200) that counts how many of that item have been merged into it. It's subtle but would continue to drain items out of circulation as they're permanently destroyed simply for orange/red text.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52406980]I feel like a more-interactive way to address the refined elephant in the room is to bring back chemistry sets. Both sets that create a cosmetic strangifier and sets that create collector's quality items. To keep things as a persistent sink rather than a 1-time thing, collector's items should come native with a counter (that starts at 200) that counts how many of that item have been merged into it. It's subtle but would continue to drain items out of circulation as they're permanently destroyed simply for orange/red text.[/QUOTE] what if you crafted twice the amount of weapons into a chemistry set and that made it strange? there's no way otherwise to make strange collector's, as far as I'm aware, and I doubt it would impact the value of regular stranges either...

there should be a collector's set for a "collector's refined metal" that takes 200 ref, and when used in a hat crafting recipe makes a random hat with a random unusual effect. you want metal to get out of the economy and make it worth more? that's how you do it

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406995]there should be a collector's set for a "collector's refined metal" that takes 200 ref, and when used in a hat crafting recipe makes a random hat with a random unusual effect. you want metal to get out of the economy and make it worth more? that's how you do it[/QUOTE] 200 ref isn't really worth even the cheapest unusual, also, this would make unusuals worth less, since it would cause inflation.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52406515]I'm surprised so many people are strongly against the implementation of class limits when it it would solve a lot of balance issues that only seem to arise without them. Issues such as: *Everyone on your team deadweighting you on Sniper or Spy *Infinite pub stalemates wherein a thousand Engineers ensure that points like Barnblitz last (or any 5CP last) are nigh impossible to push, even with an Ubercharge.[/QUOTE] The problem with class limits isn't that it's not a solution, it's that it's a crummy solution. It's like fixing a flat tire by filling it with cement. Amazing solution, never going to have that problem again, right? Dane sketched a possible way to go with fixing sentryspam, by nerfing engineer cooperation. He didn't say anything concrete IIRC, but I think something like making it impossible for two (big) sentries to shoot the same target might work - you wouldn't build next to someone else if your sentry gets no kills ever, and even if you do it's not going to be as difficult to push into with an uber since you're not going to have 5 sentries' combined knockback blasting you against a wall. A less intrusive solution might be to keep the targeting as it is now, but make the knockback not stack. There might be other ways to approach this philosophy. The sniper and spy situation is trickier. The strategy is already quite ineffective, we know that as we don't have 3 spy/3 sniper comp teams, so I think this is more a matter of new player psychology. A common situation is that you have a sniper standing around never getting any kills ever, with 3 of his buddies next to him thinking this is the meta. I'm guessing to them this is a comfy situation, no danger, no stress. Same goes for the CnD Spy observing the game from a corner. It makes perfect sense why a new player would gravitate towards this playstyle, it's (seemingly) very low-risk, you're so far away from everyone/invisible so you can't ever die, most of all you don't have to touch the controls at all so it's very relaxing. The only downside is that you don't get anything done, but a new player is not yet aware of how terrible they're doing. Even if they only score a single bodyshot/backstab in the whole match, to them that one kill is the memorable part, and in their mind all the waiting was worth it just for that. There are two ways to approach this problem: make it easier for pub players to punish campers, and make it less relaxing to camp (TF2 isn't eurotruck). The former could be more long-range weapons capable of killing a 125hp class like the flare gun or rescue ranger for more classes (buff bison 2017) (also less shitty design like the new DDS) or more mobility items for more classes (which would also be beneficial for those classes in comp), or make snipers more visible the longer they are scoped making them more of an obvious target, say at full charge your rifle's laser pointer gets a dazzling teamcolored glare - this shouldn't affect comp much since snipers killing overhealed heavies usually shoot instantly after getting full charge/the moment the target enters their view. The latter could be something like scope charge begins degrading ~5 seconds after it reaches 100% charge, so you have to rescope and charge it again. The idea is that this gets annoying after a while and makes you want to just get out there and find something to kill already. Good snipers rarely spend that long scoped in, so they shouldn't be affected. Something like this already works on Huntsman. As for CnD camp, the watch could make you flicker at empty [i]and[/i] full charge while cloaked, meaning you have to constantly keep moving back and forth, making it way less comfy/braindead to use, but not any less functional in comp environment. Menu tweaks could go a long way. Overwatch-style "game telling you what to play" system is often mentioned. It's a bit on the side of class limits in that the game is telling you how to play it rather than just letting you play it, but meh at least it's not restrictive.

I am certain there will be a 2nd balance related blog post in the next 12 hours, roughly.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52406995]there should be a collector's set for a "collector's refined metal" that takes 200 ref, and when used in a hat crafting recipe makes a random hat with a random unusual effect. you want metal to get out of the economy and make it worth more? that's how you do it[/QUOTE] can i use a collector's scrap metal to make an unusual weapon