Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Ace of Butts;52407500]So why does VNN think the update is this week? If it does happen, I guess Thursday is the last possible day the update could drop?[/QUOTE] I'd just say it's hype building up. Seeing all of these lil pieces of an update puzzle getting closer and closer to completion does that. I wouldn't take Tyler's word as 100% fact, though. It's okay to be excited, but like he said in his last tf2 video, he said he "thinks" it'll be this week. Not that it will. Like void mentioned not too long ago, the TF2Maps/mapping community hasn't received word or notice of maps being chosen for the update yet, and a handful of people are still rushing to get maps finished before it's too late. My best guess is the update will be in the first part of July, if not later in the month. July just seems more likely for all of this at this point, given the circumstances. No matter when, I'm gonna be excited to see a new theme in the mixture. Jungle update is gonna be fun. I'll be happy and pleased when it gets here.

[QUOTE=Doodle966;52407526]Either today or thursday, When you mean this week[/QUOTE] I'd rather it be a Thursday than a Friday so we don't get a case of having everything broken for the whole weekend

Some thoughts on the suggested changes, I know it's a little late but whatever. Sandman: I've never had a problem with the stun mechanic. I don't think it should be removed, nor does it make sense to just throw away the animation and particle effect. If anything, I'd say the length of the stun could be shortened quite a bit. What I really don't understand is that Valve says their goal for this weapon is to make using it less random and more skill based, but changing the effects of the ball [I]after it already hits[/I] has no bearing on how random it is to land shots. Razorback: I like the tradeoff between different types of vulnerability they're trying to implement. It solves the problem of snipers being protected against everything at once. I would say be careful about the healing mechanics though, if the inability to overheal means that it builds uber faster then comp players might still complain about this being a problem. Vita-Saw: I kind of like this idea and I kind of don't. It's an interesting mechanic and helps to make the weapon more skill based instead of having a passive upside, but part of me feels like it would be pointless to risk your life to save uber that you may or may not have, when you could be using that time to heal your team and build uber in the first place. That means this weapon only has an upside if you die, [I]and[/I] you put in work beforehand to both build uber and to collect organs. Eviction Notice: I really don't think this needs the same effect as the Gloves of Running Urgently. It's weird enough on one weapon, and it makes even less sense on this one. To me it seems like Valve couldn't think of a drawback to put on it, and just slapped on a lighter version of the GRU's effect. Also, it seems like Valve is mostly focusing on fixing weapons that are too powerful, but they're kind of neglecting the ones that severely underused (bison? hello?).

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52407556]so we don't get a case of having everything broken for the whole weekend[/QUOTE] i really hate how nowadays this is what we've grown to expect from every update

[QUOTE=Mikroscopic;52407565]Some thoughts on the suggested changes, I know it's a little late but whatever. Sandman: I've never had a problem with the stun mechanic. I don't think it should be removed, nor does it make sense to just throw away the animation and particle effect. If anything, I'd say the length of the stun could be shortened quite a bit. What I really don't understand is that Valve says their goal for this weapon is to make using it less random and more skill based, but changing the effects of the ball [I]after it already hits[/I] has no bearing on how random it is to land shots. Vita-Saw: I kind of like this idea and I kind of don't. It's an interesting mechanic and helps to make the weapon more skill based instead of having a passive upside, but part of me feels like it would be pointless to risk your life to save uber that you may or may not have, when you could be using that time to heal your team and build uber in the first place. That means this weapon only has an upside if you die, [I]and[/I] you put in work beforehand to both build uber and to collect organs. Also, it seems like Valve is mostly focusing on fixing weapons that are too powerful, but they're kind of neglecting the ones that severely underused (bison? hello?).[/QUOTE] Stuns and slowdowns are absolutely horrible and I would be happier if every one were removed from the game. I think you're misinterpreting the use case for the Vita saw. You don't run out and try to melee soldiers to get organs agressively, at that point you'd just be better off with the ubersaw. It's supposed to be a defensive item, where you hit people with it if they try to flank you and get up in your grill. That way you can save your Uber if you know you're going to die anyway.

[QUOTE=Mikroscopic;52407565] Also, it seems like Valve is mostly focusing on fixing weapons that are too powerful, but they're kind of neglecting the ones that severely underused (bison? hello?).[/QUOTE] underused weapons arent as much of a priority as weapons considered too good, as weapons that are op or annoying affect multiple people on the other team, but an underpowered or hard to use weapon only annoys the user. It's more logical to prioritize a fix that improves multiple players' experiences instead of ones that improve only one person's.

[QUOTE=Mikroscopic;52407565]Also, it seems like Valve is mostly focusing on fixing weapons that are too powerful, but they're kind of neglecting the ones that severely underused (bison? hello?).[/QUOTE] That will probably happen in the full update. This was just getting the most important/controversial changes out of the way. Remember, the list is not complete.

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52407556]I'd rather it be a Thursday than a Friday so we don't get a case of having everything broken for the whole weekend[/QUOTE] Oh, I have a feeling there will be major breakage for the first month, then mostly clean up after that until October.

Oh my I'm getting flashbacks from next year. The update wont be Friday, Valve doesn't work weekends. Or at least not historically. If there isn't a blog post soon, it wont be tonight.

[QUOTE=gjw22;52407863]Oh my I'm getting flashbacks from next year. The update wont be Friday, Valve doesn't work weekends. Or at least not historically. If there isn't a blog post soon, it wont be tonight.[/QUOTE] Valve released the Halloween update last year on a Friday, that's why I'm worried about it

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52407919]Valve released the Halloween update last year on a Friday, that's why I'm worried about it[/QUOTE] I wouldn't consider Sp00k Fortress to be a major update. Valve also knows they're on thin ice. at least i hope

class limits are probably a better option without the need to make the game more complicated if you already have 2 shit spies that can't deal with the heavy/engie/sniper etc that's destroying your team, you going spy and killing that player won't make your team win, there are still 11 other players on the enemy team while you have 3 spies, similarly when half your team switches to sniper to get that heavy/medic combo that killed your entire team, then you too switch to sniper and kill him, you're still being spawncamped, just without the heavy if you can only play one class, then you should try playing another one, you don't need to be good at it how's a bad player helping more by being a bad soldier than being a bad sniper? because at least on soldier enemies are shooting him instead of you, he will die anyway but he still helped by being there, similar to how a sniper could theoretically kill half the enemy team by himself, but only if their attention is on his team mates rather than on him.

besides, even if you nerf the effectiveness of class stacking, people are still going to stack. people like playing sniper and spy, so if they want to play them even if there are 3 others, they will, if they're new and don't know any better. literally the only solution to stacking is class limits.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408360]besides, even if you nerf the effectiveness of class stacking, people are still going to stack. people like playing sniper and spy, so if they want to play them even if there are 3 others, they will, if they're new and don't know any better. literally the only solution to stacking is class limits.[/QUOTE] Why not just include a proper tutorial or something like Overwatch's class selection screen? You know, like how the screen warns you of too many offensive heroes on a team.

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;52408385]Why not just include a proper tutorial or something like Overwatch's class selection screen? You know, like how the screen warns you of too many offensive heroes on a team.[/QUOTE] because, like in overwatch (at least in quickplay) people will stack hero types anyways because they don't feel like healing or tanking and playing around the team

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408360]besides, even if you nerf the effectiveness of class stacking, people are still going to stack. people like playing sniper and spy, so if they want to play them even if there are 3 others, they will, if they're new and don't know any better. literally the only solution to stacking is class limits.[/QUOTE] Fighting them in isolation is fine, it's when things are grouped that things become a problem. 2 Medics on the same heavy gets reduced overall healing and uber building, but still has better-than-1 medic's worth of healing and ubercharge. It then propagates further the more medics are added to the mix. Unless you start to introduce arbitrary damage modifiers when multiple of a class are present, you're never going to get rid of class stacking, the best that can be done is reducing the healing that those classes provide when stacked so they don't become absurdly durable.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408360]besides, even if you nerf the effectiveness of class stacking, people are still going to stack. people like playing sniper and spy, so if they want to play them even if there are 3 others, they will, if they're new and don't know any better. literally the only solution to stacking is class limits.[/QUOTE] Those are different issues you're trying to fix in one fell swoop. The first issue is stacking classes in order to become an unbeatable force. Imposing class limits is a way to counter that, but are you certain it's the [I]best[/I] way? I don't see how the consequences are worth it. The second, you have players either unfamiliar with the game or not interested in helping the team win. I don't see how class limits solve this. The unfamiliar players are still unfamiliar and the disinterested are still disinterested. They're more likely to impede team success by blocking classes.

Nothing tonight I presume.

[QUOTE=Blade Rx69;52408550]They're more likely to impede team success by blocking classes.[/QUOTE] I'd rather an unfamiliar player play Soldier than play yet another Sniper.

So what is the correct limit for each class?

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52407588]Stuns and slowdowns are absolutely horrible and I would be happier if every one were removed from the game.[/QUOTE] Can I ask why? As long as they take a reasonable amount of skill to pull off (which, sure, you can argue the sandman doesn't require at the moment, but that could be changed) I don't see why the player shouldn't be rewarded for it. Maybe it can seem random at times to be hit by the ball, but then again so can being headshot or backstabbed, and this case isn't even a certain instakill. (I [I]do[/I] think that the stun time is way too long though.) Either way, Valve seems to be saying they want to remove the feeling of randomness of being hit by a stray ball. But their proposed changes don't do anything to fix that, they just make it less of a nuisance when you do get randomly hit by it.

[QUOTE=Mikroscopic;52408778]Can I ask why? As long as they take a reasonable amount of skill to pull off (which, sure, you can argue the sandman doesn't require at the moment, but that could be changed) I don't see why the player shouldn't be rewarded for it. Maybe it can seem random at times to be hit by the ball, but then again so can being headshot or backstabbed, and this case isn't even a certain instakill. (I [I]do[/I] think that the stun time is way too long though.) Either way, Valve seems to be saying they want to remove the feeling of randomness of being hit by a stray ball. But their proposed changes don't do anything to fix that, they just make it less of a nuisance when you do get randomly hit by it.[/QUOTE] Because being stunned for longer than 1 second = instant death in high skill environments. I want to see how you feel about being targeted by a Sandman Scout. And make sure to play Heavy while being targeted. I bet you'll really feel like the Scout is putting a great amount of skill into hitting you with that ball.

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;52407554][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLg8Ekn08fM[/url][/QUOTE] I just watched this video for the first time since the upload. I got so much shit for this video, so far as bang and ronin threatening me with a lawsuit if I didn't comply with them. There was so much more going on, but I just didn't want to get sued. I still have the chat logs, it was a nightmare.

[QUOTE=Mikroscopic;52408778]Can I ask why? As long as they take a reasonable amount of skill to pull off (which, sure, you can argue the sandman doesn't require at the moment, but that could be changed) I don't see why the player shouldn't be rewarded for it. Maybe it can seem random at times to be hit by the ball, but then again so can being headshot or backstabbed, and this case isn't even a certain instakill. (I [I]do[/I] think that the stun time is way too long though.) Either way, Valve seems to be saying they want to remove the feeling of randomness of being hit by a stray ball. But their proposed changes don't do anything to fix that, they just make it less of a nuisance when you do get randomly hit by it.[/QUOTE] The reason stuns are bad is that, once they hit, they remove skill from the equation. They also create a time where you are definitely going to die and can't do anything about it, but you aren't dead yet. Even a slowing effect diminishes the influence of skill on the outcome. This is undesirable. e: too slow

[QUOTE=valvenews;52408802]I just watched this video for the first time since the upload. I got so much shit for this video, so far as bang and ronin threatening me with a lawsuit if I didn't comply with them. There was so much more going on, but I just didn't want to get sued. I still have the chat logs, it was a nightmare.[/QUOTE] It honestly seems all so crazy to me that these two people were running this crazy system that just spells out corruption. Was it all really that messed up? or were sources just biased at the time. It wasnt till last few months i even heard drama about some community update. I'm guessing this was the "drama behind the scenes of some community update" that led the TF team to start doing the community updates in the new format now?

[QUOTE=valvenews;52408802]I just watched this video for the first time since the upload. I got so much shit for this video, so far as bang and ronin threatening me with a lawsuit if I didn't comply with them. There was so much more going on, but I just didn't want to get sued. I still have the chat logs, it was a nightmare.[/QUOTE] Sounds... very very slimy on their part. Lawsuit? Really?

[QUOTE=Curly Bill;52408824]It honestly seems all so crazy to me that these two people were running this crazy system that just spells out corruption. Was it all really that messed up? or were sources just biased at the time. It wasnt till last few months i even heard drama about some community update. I'm guessing this was the "drama behind the scenes of some community update" that led the TF team to start doing the community updates in the new format now?[/QUOTE] And also the fact that it was like the 3rd "sniper scout engie and pyro get class sets, everyone else gets nothing/an all-class" update, which was complete bull since there was [I]so many[/I] popular items for each class uploaded to the workshop. 70% of the update's submitted content being cut due to the chosen few running it was probably the reason why valve added the new format, they even mentioned the "gatekeepers" thing in the VNN interview.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52408761]So what is the correct limit for each class?[/QUOTE] In Casual? Ideally 2 per class, no need to make it complicated. In Competitive? 2-1-1 (Offense-Defense-Support classes) to maintain competitive balancing and game pacing. [QUOTE=valvenews;52408802]I just watched this video for the first time since the upload. I got so much shit for this video, so far as bang and ronin threatening me with a lawsuit if I didn't comply with them. There was so much more going on, but I just didn't want to get sued. I still have the chat logs, it was a nightmare.[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ. Kudos, though. That's how you know you've made it as a journalist: by pissing off slimy people when you expose them. By the way, any news on the email? o:

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408606]I'd rather an unfamiliar player play Soldier than play yet another Sniper.[/QUOTE] I value my own ability to adapt (by changing classes) over even class distribution. If a teammate wants to be something less than ideal, that's their choice to make.

[QUOTE=Blade Rx69;52408909]I value my own ability to adapt (by changing classes) over even class distribution. If a teammate wants to be something less than ideal, that's their choice to make.[/QUOTE] If there are 4 Snipers and 3 Spies on you're team, your ability doesn't matter because your team is going to get rolled and you won't be able to do anything to change that.