Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

What if there was a thing like with overwatch where it tells you that your team needs a medic or that there's too many snipers/spies/ect.?

[QUOTE=EmilyVasquez;52408919]What if there was a thing like with overwatch where it tells you that your team needs a medic or that there's too many snipers/spies/ect.?[/QUOTE] You aren't the first person to say this. Not even on this page. [QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;52408385]Why not just include a proper tutorial or something like Overwatch's class selection screen? You know, like how the screen warns you of too many offensive heroes on a team.[/QUOTE] and my response: [QUOTE=Contra132;52408427]because, like in overwatch (at least in quickplay) people will stack hero types anyways because they don't feel like healing or tanking and playing around the team[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Drury;52407022]Menu tweaks could go a long way. Overwatch-style "game telling you what to play" system is often mentioned. It's a bit on the side of class limits in that the game is telling you how to play it rather than just letting you play it, but meh at least it's not restrictive.[/QUOTE] and my response: [QUOTE=Contra132;52407091]overwatch has a class limit of 1 in quickplay and competitive alike, after they came to the (right) conclusion that the game played better for it bad example to provide in an argument against class limits, since overwatch is a better game for it.[/QUOTE] The feature would be nice, but it's not a valid argument against the implementation of class limits.

The only issue I could see with a thing telling you the team needs a Medic/Offensive class/too many Snipers is that class composition in TF2 is more complicated than Overwatch and encourages changing classes more. i.e. if you're playing offense on Payload, there are 100% situations where you'd rather have an Engie with a teleporter up than another Soldier, but you wouldn't want to recommend Engineer to players at the start of the match when they're just gonna get killed leaving spawn. It can't take differing loadouts into account, either; having one Soldier with a roamer loadout and another with a dedicated pushing loadout is often better than two pushers, and always better than two roamers. Also it would probably tell you to never play Pyro ever, seeing as he has no clearly defined place in team composition

i really don't think we should be learning class limits from overwatch since tf2 only has 9 classes while overwatch has like 20?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52378305]Tomorrow blogpost, then starting on the 4th we get a 4-day update (2 for pyro, 2 for jungle) ending on friday the 7th? [IMG]https://media.tenor.com/images/829f358fdf8f41b7bdf0874818f41519/tenor.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE] seems less overly optimistic now, doesn't it? :V

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408915]If there are 4 Snipers and 3 Spies on you're team, your ability doesn't matter because your team is going to get rolled and you won't be able to do anything to change that.[/QUOTE] If they are intentionally choosing and staying on those classes, this hypothetical team isn't getting anywhere even if they're forced into different classes.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408851]Sounds... very very slimy on their part. Lawsuit? Really?[/QUOTE] Yea, they said that if I didn't take down the first video, and make a second video that they first approved, they would take legal action. So I complyed trying to not to ruin my carrer with legal fees. So I make this second "approved" video (which is now unlisted : [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w_OFT6DDOM[/url]). After the video went up, I contacted my cousins who own a law firm, and they stated I am in no legal trouble reporting on a leak. So I contacted Bang and Ronin, and they then told me that they would give me a bunch of information on future community updates early if I followed them. They never told me anything and disappeared after I put my original video back online. Also, I had heard about Bang and Ronin messing with the community far before the drama started. All having to do with the update, but before anything went public and was provable. It was a complete mess, and I'm very glad what Valve did to fix the issue. Hopefully the Jungle stuff turns out good, and is a accurate representation of what the community can do, not just a bunch of beanies and a meme map. I did hear from someone, I don't remember who, that they were wanting, and pitching, invasion style updates for every class. That would have sucked.

[QUOTE=valvenews;52409004]So I contacted Bang and Ronin, and they then told me that they would give me a bunch of information on future community updates early if I followed them.[/QUOTE] Bribing? wtf

[QUOTE=rolfum;52408986]i really don't think we should be learning class limits from overwatch since tf2 only has 9 classes while overwatch has like 20?[/QUOTE] yes, but tf2 as an experience is also much better when class stacking (whether at the expense of your own team or their team) is taken out of the picture. there's nothing fun about fighting against 5-stack engie nests or having a solid half of your team, sometimes more, deadweighting on spy or sniper. [editline]27th June 2017[/editline] also, we wouldn't be "learning class limits from Overwatch". class limits have been in our competitive games and community servers for literal years before Overwatch was even a twinkle in Blizzard's eye, and the game was better for it.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52408988]seems less overly optimistic now, doesn't it? :V[/QUOTE] Did they confirm something like that or something?

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52409075]Did they confirm something like that or something?[/QUOTE] he posted that right before the changelog post was released.

Since we have reached the phase where every night, could be the night, I don't know if it's a bad or good thing that we don't have like 100+ posts every night about nothing like for Meet Your Match. Pointless and spammy, but certainly entertaining

[QUOTE=Fluury;52409190]Since we have reached the phase where every night, could be the night, I don't know if it's a bad or good thing that we don't have like 100+ posts every night about nothing like for Meet Your Match. Pointless and spammy, but certainly entertaining[/QUOTE] It takes on average 2 years to get balance changes in this game. I don't know why people are thinking that a finalized update will drop 7 days after a blog post that took almost a year to be posted.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52409190] Pointless and spammy[/QUOTE] just like meet your match

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52409194]It takes on average 2 years to get balance changes in this game. I don't know why people are thinking that a finalized update will drop 7 days after a blog post that took almost a year to be posted.[/QUOTE] Where did you get this 2 year figure? They have released rebalances in far shorter spans of time. They aren't usually highly regarded changes mind you, but your claim is far from the truth.

[QUOTE=Punchy;52409390]Where did you get this 2 year figure? They have released rebalances in far shorter spans of time. They aren't usually highly regarded changes mind you, but your claim is far from the truth.[/QUOTE] That figure was Zenomite's average estimate in his latest video, and also in how long it takes valve (but not always) to fix the botched rebalances of updates past.

[QUOTE=valvenews;52409004]Yea, they said that if I didn't take down the first video, and make a second video that they first approved, they would take legal action. So I complyed trying to not to ruin my carrer with legal fees. So I make this second "approved" video (which is now unlisted : [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w_OFT6DDOM[/url]). After the video went up, I contacted my cousins who own a law firm, and they stated I am in no legal trouble reporting on a leak. So I contacted Bang and Ronin, and they then told me that they would give me a bunch of information on future community updates early if I followed them. They never told me anything and disappeared after I put my original video back online. Also, I had heard about Bang and Ronin messing with the community far before the drama started. All having to do with the update, but before anything went public and was provable. It was a complete mess, and I'm very glad what Valve did to fix the issue. Hopefully the Jungle stuff turns out good, and is a accurate representation of what the community can do, not just a bunch of beanies and a meme map. I did hear from someone, I don't remember who, that they were wanting, and pitching, invasion style updates for every class. That would have sucked.[/QUOTE] I'm glad to see some actual reason as to why Invasion was bad other than "WE DIDNT GET TO FIGHT TUH ALIENZ!" and stuff. I still stand by that EOTL was ruined because the community hyped the everlasting shit out of it but now i'm curious if there's underlying reasons behind that too.

I'm just going to say what everybody else has said about class limits: It's not a good idea regardless of how many people chose sniper or spy. I think what should be done is making it less appealing to play as those classes, I feel like the recent changes to both is a decent start, but that's probably not going to stop the new players from picking them. Maybe atop of an Overwatch style warning system, there could be visual cues that indicate that there's too much of one class when you get ready to join, like say one class is a slightly dark red color, smaller than the others, and a warning pops up when you hover over it, while other class portraits have a different more inviting colored tint and are slightly bigger than the others? For the refined problem, I think I heard this from other people (possibly other youtubers), but using it as a currency to use on things players didn't know they wanted would be a good thing. Like using metal to recycle paint you already used, recycling strange parts, making stat track counters, tags, etc... you just have to make sure that it's not too cheap that you make those things worthless, but not so expensive that it's a deterrent to making them. OR... you can maybe use them to reroll or upgrade tiered items depending on how much you spend? You just can't use metal to craft something that will undermine the crate key.

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52409437]I'm glad to see some actual reason as to why Invasion was bad other than "WE DIDNT GET TO FIGHT TUH ALIENZ!" and stuff. I still stand by that EOTL was ruined because the community hyped the everlasting shit out of it but now i'm curious if there's underlying reasons behind that too.[/QUOTE] Hype will do that regardless, best to stay calm and neutral (but the wait for the current update is absolutely brutal.) Wished a lot of content creators were more open about the conditions behind the scenes, paints somewhat of a clearer picture once you see both sides. Though it makes sense why the TF2 team took back control with the jungle update.

[QUOTE=valvenews;52409004]Yea, they said that if I didn't take down the first video, and make a second video that they first approved, they would take legal action. So I complyed trying to not to ruin my carrer with legal fees. So I make this second "approved" video (which is now unlisted : [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w_OFT6DDOM[/url]). After the video went up, I contacted my cousins who own a law firm, and they stated I am in no legal trouble reporting on a leak. So I contacted Bang and Ronin, and they then told me that they would give me a bunch of information on future community updates early if I followed them. They never told me anything and disappeared after I put my original video back online. Also, I had heard about Bang and Ronin messing with the community far before the drama started. All having to do with the update, but before anything went public and was provable. It was a complete mess, and I'm very glad what Valve did to fix the issue. Hopefully the Jungle stuff turns out good, and is a accurate representation of what the community can do, not just a bunch of beanies and a meme map. I did hear from someone, I don't remember who, that they were wanting, and pitching, invasion style updates for every class. That would have sucked.[/QUOTE] Ronin is a goofball. I've met him a few times while playing with some semi-competitive guys and every single time he's come off as being straight up smarmy. No wonder they changed that stuff up. Who the fuck bribes (with all due respect here) 2015 VALVE NEWS NETWORK with secret update info?

[QUOTE=phillipc;52409438]I'm just going to say what everybody else has said about class limits: It's not a good idea regardless of how many people chose sniper or spy. I think what should be done is making it less appealing to play as those classes, I feel like the recent changes to both is a decent start, but that's probably not going to stop the new players from picking them. Maybe atop of an Overwatch style warning system, there could be visual cues that indicate that there's too much of one class when you get ready to join, like say one class is a slightly dark red color, smaller than the others, and a warning pops up when you hover over it, while other class portraits have a different more inviting colored tint and are slightly bigger than the others? [/QUOTE] That wouldn't solve the problem, new players don't know how the game works, even if you make the class worse, they still don't know how the class works and only playing it because it's cool too many snipers isn't only a TF2 thing, it exists in almost all games that allow you to have different loadouts like CSGO, Battlefield, COD etc... Every one of them becomes less enjoyable the more snipers there are on a team

Class limits are just a bad idea, at least in a pub setting. If it's 6v6 or Highlander, obviously there's gonna be some class limits (either because that's the meta or because it's Highlander and those are the rules), but pubs shouldn't have to deal with those kinds of restrictions, just because you find such a wide array of players in unranked (for lack of a better term, "casual") game modes. It's been said time and time again, but it's no fun getting locked out of your main class because someone with a Gibus got there first. And no, there's no way to kick people out of a character slot that's 100% fair 100% of the time; you could be the best Sniper on your team and still lose your slot to a toddler spamming Lenny binds because the enemy team happens to have a legitimately talented Spy. It's a workaround for a workaround that's just too unreliable to possibly work and NOT be infuriating. To compare it to Overwatch, you can only have one of each character there too. But you aren't limited to X amount of Defense or X amount of Support. If I want to play as a Tank and someone is already playing Reinhardt, there's several other Tanks I can play as, no problem. TF2 is a lot more restrictive; it's 9 characters who can each do a lot of things, compared to 20+ characters who all operate differently (despite filling the same general role). If I want to play Winston in Overwatch but have to play as D.va instead, that's not such a drastic change. If I want to play Heavy, however, my options are far more limited, since the only class that plays like Heavy is Heavy. Sniper, Spy, and Medic are all Support heroes, but that doesn't mean they can be played in remotely the same way. To make a long post short, the key things they need to focus on is weapon/class balance and making the UI more beginner-friendly. If the game is truly balanced, then there should be no problem in countering 4 Engies with 4 Demomen. If they work out the kinks in balance and make sure that everything is simply challenging to fight against, rather than unfun, the issues presented by class stacking will fade away. There's also a really good FunkE video that compares TF2 to OW in terms of how welcoming they are to new players (in terms of teaching them how to play). While it's not an exact science, the addition of a "hey, you guys don't have a Medic, maybe play as a healer?" prompt on the class select screen would make a world of difference with new players; at the very least, new players who aren't screeching 6-year-olds who just want to play as a Friendly Sandvich Hooby or 1337 Trickstab Spy. tl;dr Class limits are a terrible idea outside of comp/more serious modes, the real root of the problem lies in class/weapon balance and unskilled players who have no idea what they're doing.

[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;52409586]It's been said time and time again, but it's no fun getting locked out of your main class because someone with a Gibus got there first. And no, there's no way to kick people out of a character slot that's 100% fair 100% of the time; you could be the best Sniper on your team and still lose your slot to a toddler spamming Lenny binds because the enemy team happens to have a legitimately talented Spy. It's a workaround for a workaround that's just too unreliable to possibly work and NOT be infuriating.[/QUOTE] you shouldn't play your main if 2 people are already playing it, class limits or not If you're the only good sniper on a team and you already have 2 snipers, you shouldn't go sniper because you're still putting your team on a disadvantage Atleast with class limits if you're already playing sniper, you won't suddenly get spawncamped then realise 4 other people switched to sniper

I feel like in a game where the skill levels of players in any particular pub range from serious comp players to people who have literally never played a shooter in their lives, class limits are a recipe for disaster. Imagine all the power classes being filled with people who can't hit the broad side of a spawn room to save their lives, with a pub-stomping pocket combo on the other team demolishing everything. Under these circumstances, you have no recourse at all for dealing with those pub stars and you might as well taunt in spawn for all the good you'll be able to do. As it stands pubs are basically fought between the 2-3 best players on each team carrying, while the rest of the server is full of people blindly bumping into each other hoping that the enemy drops dead from a heart attack. Unless we can get some kind of mmr in casual mode, class limits will make matches the luck of the draw on which team gets competent people in power class roles before they get locked out. [editline]28th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Nebrassy;52409603]you shouldn't play your main if 2 people are already playing it, class limits or not If you're the only good sniper on a team and you already have 2 snipers, you shouldn't go sniper because you're still putting your team on a disadvantage Atleast with class limits if you're already playing sniper, you won't suddenly get spawncamped then realise 4 other people switched to sniper[/QUOTE] If you have 2 soldiers in a pub who can't kill anything, that doesn't mean playing soldier isn't the best option.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52409603]you shouldn't play your main if 2 people are already playing it, class limits or not [/QUOTE] This doesn't exactly apply to everyone. There are good classes to stack and then there are bad classes to stack. If your main isn't sniper or spy (and sometimes pyro, engineer depending on the map) then theoretically, the team won't suffer all that much by you stacking the class. That's just the cold hard truth of it. Without [I]exceptional[/I] levels of class specific skill, teams are made worse the more snipers and spies they have, and are made better by the number of soldier/demo/heavy/medics they run. That's just how the sniper and spy are designed, but most casual players don't realize they're meant to be played by a small number of highly skilled specialists. As for the other classes... -Pyro sucks as a generalist, outdone by the 6s cast and heavy but is still better than the assassins at team stuff. Even with some skills like flare aim its still hard to compete with due to consecutive weapon nerfs. -Scout like sniper is near-useless if the user is inexperienced and at high levels the game's almost unfairly good deathmatch king, but at least has the distinction of battlefield presence thanks to speed and multiplied cap rate. -Engie stacking is only good on defense for most maps, one or two offensive engies or on 5cp can be helpful, but you'd be better off running another generalist instead of stacking it.

[QUOTE=valvenews;52409004]It was a complete mess, and I'm very glad what Valve did to fix the issue.[/QUOTE] I stopped following the Invasion update after all of the initial drama and searching up stuff is proving difficult. I hate to bring up old stuff but what did Valve do to help with this whole thing?

[QUOTE=hugthebed2;52409692]I stopped following the Invasion update after all of the initial drama and searching up stuff is proving difficult. I hate to bring up old stuff but what did Valve do to help with this whole thing?[/QUOTE] Valve put their foot down and said "We're shipping this update soon, either agree to these terms or you wont be part of the update" [QUOTE][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k9sQC2g.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Class limits would work quite well in theory if everyone was decent and reasonable, but you forget that this is Valve servers we are talking about here. If players joined and the class they wanted wasn't available then the most common result wouldn't be them playing a free class, they would either; 1. Kick or attempt to kick the people that are playing their desired class 2. Pick a free class and do nothing until the class they wanted was free Or 3. Disconnect immediately.

Perhaps they could make it so that you actually get matched with players of a similar skill level in casual

[QUOTE=SirWubbles;52409876]Perhaps they could make it so that you actually get matched with players of a similar skill level in casual[/QUOTE] but that would be bad because new players couldnt improve that way + handholding!!!! [t]https://files.catbox.moe/p0qzxy.png[/t] This is completely fine! Fun for everyone.