Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52432788]This is a result of these balance changes being focused around competitive, specifically community 6v6. Were weapons like the base jumper and eviction notice particularly heinous offenders when it came to balance in regular TF2, highlander, or just general combat? Not really. In fact both are commonly outclassed and not equipped as a result by other unlocks. But they constituted a problem in 6s where items are banned to handicap the viability of the non-meta classes and discourage similarly non-meta strategies (base jumper spam) on account of them being determined to not require enough skill, or being unfun to fight against in that specific game mode. And so they were nerfed.[/QUOTE] If I can't hit a soldier using the BASE Jumper in casual with the direct hit, it needs a nerf. Period. Valve said when they released this weapon it is supposed to be used at the cost of maneuverability. It actually gives more, meaning the nerf is warranted, no matter if your playing in 6s, HP or a pub.

There is no reason to balance for anything besides competitive gameplay. The developers have decided that they don't want weapons to be banned, so they're balancing the ones currently banned in community competitive so that the competitive community is more open to the in-game competitive format. edit: "community competitive so that the competitive community" lol

[QUOTE=JackingApples;52432671]There is zero chance of happening today. Despite today being the 'perfect day' to announce the update we know Valve doesn't care about perfect days.[/QUOTE] Valve is actually a company made up of time travelers...but the problem is that their time traveling records are all from an alternate universe and they cant return home to correct the records. Thats where valve time comes from.

[QUOTE=prizepool;52432854]If I can't hit a soldier using the BASE Jumper in casual with the direct hit, it needs a nerf. Period. Valve said when they released this weapon it is supposed to be used at the cost of maneuverability. It actually gives more, meaning the nerf is warranted, no matter if your playing in 6s, HP or a pub.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Snowshoe;52432819]You're acting like the problems with the base jumper don't exist in casual as well. It's the same broken weapon. 1. Air-strafing with the parachute deployed is faster than normal which lets you make some pretty ridiculous turns, which is not what the weapon is about (the new Mantreads now fills this role). 2. You can instantly deploy the parachute for an infinite amount of times until you hit the ground to make yourself harder to hit, which is just bullshit. Valve capped mid-air crouching for the same reason. The new changes solve both of those problems.[/QUOTE] I think both of you have misread my post here. I literally just explained why these weapons needed to be nerfed in that post, despite people not using them often, or being seen as underpowered in casual. Of course the base jumper is still able to be used for cheap cheese in casual, the stats are still the same aren't they? You just don't see as many people using it as say, the gunboats, which are a better weapon 90% of the time. And that was my point, in replying to the base jumper comment- just because something feels underpowered in casual doesn't mean it's not worthy of being rebalanced. Conversely, like this example, If we truly were to balance around 6s, the non-metagame items and classes would be nerfed into the situational obscurities they are within it, and that will always be a problem unless we make the entirety of tf2 revolve around the communuty 6v6 whitelist.

So... What about the instances where weapons are ineffective in competitive, but absolutely obnoxious in casual mode? Like for instance... Demo-knight, and.. [i]Pyro.[/i] There was talk about Engineer nests being obnoxious and difficult to counter, but to the contrary I believe its just a lack of know-how from a majority of the players who face the obstacle. There isn't much information out there instantly accessible to new players on how to counter such things in the first place. And casual mode doesn't provide an adequate environment in which they'll learn to do so. [QUOTE=grif;52403718]All you need is a coordinated push with a DH/Loch-n-Load... If anything the "nest" has a huge disadvantage in that it doesn't move. ... The mini-sentry approach... I find to be horribly overpowered and annoying. Face 3-5 of those and your scouts/jumping soldiers/and medics get put in a real tough spot. The speed and mobility of the mini is strong. [I]Too strong.[/i] [/quote] [i]There is a bit more to this quote, follow the quote link to see more of it for context.[/i] Just like the issue of countering Engineer nests... I don't think many people understand the dangers of letting demo-knights acquire heads amidst their failed attempts to kill him (or not...) The Soda Popper, Baby-face blaster, and Pocket Pistol were changed because it felt silly to reward scouts for running/shooting at people... Doing their job... And yet weapons like the Diamond Back, and the Eyelander remain untouched. (Dead Ringer spies feed demoknights like crazy.) I very much dislike the "demoknight" gimmick and equate my opinion of it with it random crits and airblast. I enjoy first person shooters, I don't enjoy a half-ass attempt at combining FPS with some obscure "counter" system in which the player can be punished for shooting at the target.

[QUOTE=AD/HD;52432740]Everytime the fuck up a weapon just cause it's banned in comp, I die a little inside, what about the other 95% of the players[/QUOTE] Balancing is generally better around people who actually know everything about the weapon then those who don't have a clue. Other wise we'll have more underpowered weapons getting nerfed for no reason just like the Phlog did lol. Comp players will break weapons down completely to understand just what they can get out of the weapon, mostly because fully understanding how a weapon works can also give you an edge when fighting with or against someone using it. That mean's they're more likely to provide Valve with actual facts about what makes or breaks a weapon. Casual player base will mostly never understand the weapons they complain about enough to give reliable enough information towards to them. This is why balancing around competitive is considered the better way to balance a game.

Mmmmm I guess I'm in the camp of "definitely next week" now.

It's Tuesday and you are ringing the "next week" bell?

Its ok we'll be right eventually.

[QUOTE=A_Guardian;52432959]It's Tuesday and you are ringing the "next week" bell?[/QUOTE] On a holiday no less?

its gonna be friday [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] i can feel it

Tomorrow or Thursday.

[QUOTE=GuntMyFries;52432712][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ncP539r.png[/IMG] I think the most worrying part of the update is that BASE Jumper change. It already feels under-powered, and is just a fun weapon to goof around with. If they take the fun out of this one too by making it redundant and uncontrollable, I feel it'll get invited to the obsolete club of boring weapons, right next to the once-enjoyable Claidheamh Mòr. Anyone else going to miss it?[/QUOTE] Really? The BASE Jumper is annoying as fuck. Whenever I see someone using it I just rocket jump away because there's no way I'm hitting a target that has full freedom of movement in the air.

Blog post tomorrow, update Thursday. It may not feel like it but there's always the famous Valve silence before an update.

[QUOTE=Scott713;52433085]Blog post tomorrow, update Thursday. It may not feel like it but there's always the famous Valve silence before an update.[/QUOTE] Really? Because that famous valve silence is what we've gotten as developer communication for years.

[QUOTE=Antary;52433073]Really? The BASE Jumper is annoying as fuck. Whenever I see someone using it I just rocket jump away because there's no way I'm hitting a target that has full freedom of movement in the air.[/QUOTE] Maybe play hitscan

[QUOTE=Man in the Moon;52433129]Maybe play hitscan[/QUOTE] The parachuting soldier is usually too far away for the Scattergun/Shotgun to do much damage. The pistol is only okay at dealing with it. Heavy is really the only class that can effectively deal with BASE Jumper soldiers, and since he's not widely used in 6s, it remains banned there. And in (community) 6s, you can't just change from Soldier to Scout if the enemy has something you don't like. This change was well deserved.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52433147]The parachuting soldier is usually too far away for the Scattergun/Shotgun to do much damage. The pistol is only okay at dealing with it. Heavy is really the only class that can effectively deal with BASE Jumper soldiers, and since he's not widely used in 6s, it remains banned there. And in (community) 6s, you can't just change from Soldier to Scout if the enemy has something you don't like. This change was well deserved.[/QUOTE] This conveniently ignores sniper, which easily deals with base and is often run as an off class. Maybe the change is better for comp overall, but they might as well have removed it from the game if they're going to leave you as a sitting duck whenever you use it.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52432772]Speaking of that, I do wonder if we'll get a proper Halloween this year.[/QUOTE] For your consideration, a team fortress 2 Halloween update with a new boss monster, two new weapons for every class, a new mann vs Machine map and meet your match wait time is now less than 5 seconds. [IMG]http://gephardtdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Rod-Serling-04-cover.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52433173]This conveniently ignores sniper, which easily deals with base and is often run as an off class. Maybe the change is better for comp overall, but they might as well have removed it from the game if they're going to leave you as a sitting duck whenever you use it.[/QUOTE] You can still bomb people from above while using it.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52433173]This conveniently ignores sniper, which easily deals with base and is often run as an off class. Maybe the change is better for comp overall, but they might as well have removed it from the game if they're going to leave you as a sitting duck whenever you use it.[/QUOTE] just because you can't abuse redeploys anymore doesn't mean that you're a sitting duck

[QUOTE=Contra132;52433202]just because you can't abuse redeploys anymore doesn't mean that you're a sitting duck[/QUOTE] By "sitting duck" I mean "can't dodge anything". And you cannot dodge anything with no redeploys and reduced air control.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52433173]This conveniently ignores sniper, which easily deals with base and is often run as an off class. Maybe the change is better for comp overall, but they might as well have removed it from the game if they're going to leave you as a sitting duck whenever you use it.[/QUOTE] You can't give a Soldier full air control and a way to negate fall damage by giving up his shotgun, same with Demo. Why's that? Because they both still have their goddamn primary weapons. It's too powerful to give both of the highest DPM classes free air mobility for no cost at all. Soldiers and Demos can bomb groups of players with this weapon and escape alive with no punishment which shouldn't happen in pubs or in competitive play. Sure, Sniper counters the Base Jumper in a lot of situations, yes, but smart players could've just used infinite deploys to throw off Snipers. Not to mention, [I]weapons need counters.[/I] "But... but the parachute isn't going to be an all-powerful weapon anymore!" This is a [U]good[/U] thing. You know what you call a weapon with no counters? That's right, overpowered.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52433216]By "sitting duck" I mean "can't dodge anything". And you cannot dodge anything with no redeploys and reduced air control.[/QUOTE] It's reduced air control versus the original BASE Jumper, which boosted air control significantly. It did so to such an extent that it was banned on Jump servers because it provided an unfair advantage to jumps that previously required much more skill to execute. If its air control is brought more in line with normal air control, you still have the ability to dodge. Additionally, stalling your descent even once will throw off people's prediction of your midair trajectory. I think you're overexaggerating the impact of this nerf on what was a fundamentally broken and frustrating weapon to play against.

I have never ever seen the base jumper abused to the ridiculous lengths that you people are claiming in casual. I [I]have[/I] seen exactly that in 6v6 pre-ban and agree it needed a change, but honestly, the thing is fairly useless without the air strike in casual due to taking full damage from rocket jumps, the overabundance of snipers/hitscan classes shooting at you, and just generally being outclassed by the gunboats in terms of mobility that won't get you killed. To the average casual player, this change will probably turn the weapon into crafting fuel due to being vastly easier to kill while using it, when you could be using the gunboats.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52433441]I have never ever seen the base jumper abused to the ridiculous lengths that you people are claiming in casual.[/QUOTE] Then this nerf will leave casual play untouched.

[QUOTE=Darth_Toast;52433449]Then this nerf will leave casual play untouched.[/QUOTE] Nerfing a broken weapon into uselessness solves the problem, but in an unhelpful way that creates dead content. It needs a nerf, just not this particular one. EDIT: I meant valve's nerf to the redeploy is fine.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52433457]Nerfing a broken weapon into uselessness solves the problem, but in an unhelpful way that creates dead content. It needs a nerf, just not this particular one. (The redeploy thing is fine)[/QUOTE] How exactly is the base jumper "useless" with less turn speed while deployed?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52433457]Nerfing a broken weapon into uselessness solves the problem, but in an unhelpful way that creates dead content. It needs a nerf, just not this particular one. (The redeploy thing is fine)[/QUOTE] but it's not, redeploying the parachute was one of the main issues, which allowed base jumping players to have incredible air control not just horizontally, but vertically as well, which only made him harder to headshot/airshot than they were also the base jumping players who used the market gardener need to be kicked down a peg for their crimes against humanity the main purpose of the base jumper is to have you fall down at a fixed slower rate, not to fall as fast as feel like and have incredible air control to boot

I'm not a fan of the parachute thing in casual/community servers, because you can die instantly against a good Sniper or random sentry gun placed by juanito.sanchez.2007 or be killed by the classic Market Gardener Soldier while he floats gently on the air. On the other hand, I can see why the weapon can become a nuisance in a competitive match, but does anyone have some video footage of it being used in that environment? Or the weapon was banned from day 1?