[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442161]Wait, you guys actually expected BioWare to rewrite the entire ending just to satisfy you? I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. You can't force an artist to change their vision, you can ask them to explain and clarify their vision but to force them to change it would just be a giant fuck you to the artist, it would be saying that their vision does not matter at all, and they should only work if its in the interest of the consumer rather than the creator.[/QUOTE]
I actually agree with this, yes the ending is bad but all they can do now is explain what they intended with it. It's too late with changing the ending into something else, even the Indoctrination Theory won't be useable since the Extended Cut doesn't mention it at all.
The DLC is exactly what I wanted, an Epilogue, to explain how what I did affected the rest of the galaxy.
Better be Narrated by Ron Perlman (jokes)
I would just like to note something on the green/blue/red explosions.
"Emission nebulae tend to be red in color because of the abundance of hydrogen. Additional colors, such as blue and green, can be produced by the atoms of other elements"
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442161]Wait, you guys actually expected BioWare to rewrite the entire ending just to satisfy you? I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. You can't force an artist to change their vision, you can ask them to explain and clarify their vision but to force them to change it would just be a giant fuck you to the artist, it would be saying that their vision does not matter at all, and they should only work if its in the interest of the consumer rather than the creator.[/QUOTE]
Mind, isn't the best thing about art is that it can easily be modified? Granted, changing the whole damn ending is a large stretch of belief, but atleast fix up the plotholes, remove some stuff, and atleast make sense of things and add closure, because right now the ending is pretty bad even at an artistic standpoint, and right now claims of "artistic integrity" come off more as a deviantArt user going "It's my style!"
Granted, some people are expecting too much, but some change is needed. Besides, we can't just mindlessly agree with everything without any sort of doubt of what you're agreeing with could be bad, that's just silly.
[QUOTE=Blooper Reel;35442229]Mind, isn't the best thing about art is that it can easily be modified? Granted, changing the whole damn ending is a large stretch of belief, but atleast fix up the plotholes, remove some stuff, and atleast make sense of things and add closure, because right now the ending is pretty bad even at an artistic standpoint, and right now claims of "artistic integrity" come off more as a deviantArt user going "It's my style!"
Granted, some people are expecting too much, but some change is needed. Besides, we can't just mindlessly agree with everything without any sort of doubt of what you're agreeing is could be bad, that's just silly.[/QUOTE]
Art should only be changed at the whim of the artist, to expand their vision. Not because a bunch of people are crying at you. Sure they can change it to what any consumer wants, but then its no longer art, its a product.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442161]Wait, you guys actually expected BioWare to rewrite the entire ending just to satisfy you? I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. You can't force an artist to change their vision, you can ask them to explain and clarify their vision but to force them to change it would just be a giant fuck you to the artist, it would be saying that their vision does not matter at all, and they should only work if its in the interest of the consumer rather than the creator.[/QUOTE]
No. Movies undergo focus screening beforehand and often alter the story to fit the audience better. Authors often rewrite the events of their books if there is a negative fan reaction. Songs are often recut or remixed for listeners.
The idea of ~artistic vision~ is entirely juvenile. It demeans constructive criticism and implies that artists are somehow better than their audience. These are people who make mistakes, not Olympians tossing their greatness down for us mere mortals to enjoy.
[editline]5th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442255]Art should only be changed at the whim of the artist, to expand their vision. Not because a bunch of people are crying at you. Sure they can change it to what any consumer wants, but then its no longer art, its a product.[/QUOTE]
So Sherlock Holmes isn't art then? Because Holmes was killed off by Doyle and only revived after a huge public outcry.
[QUOTE=Darth_GW7;35442102]That's because you're too wrapped up in your own opinions to recognise that while you think it's "Bad" other people might think otherwise[/QUOTE]
You seem to have a difficult time understanding that there is such a thing as objectively bad writing.
[QUOTE=Blooper Reel;35442229]Mind, isn't the best thing about art is that it can easily be modified? Granted, changing the whole damn ending is a large stretch of belief, but atleast fix up the plotholes, remove some stuff, and atleast make sense of things and add closure, because right now the ending is pretty bad even at an artistic standpoint, and right now claims of "artistic integrity" come off more as a deviantArt user going "It's my style!"
[B]
Granted, some people are expecting too much, but some change is needed. Besides, we can't just mindlessly agree with everything without any sort of doubt of what you're agreeing with could be bad, that's just silly.[/B][/QUOTE]
Some change [I]is[/I] needed, but how much are they actually able to change without radically altering the plot? It's looking like, at best, they'll give us the ability to talk the Starkid down or die (Liara's box ending) while giving more clarification over the other three endings.
[editline]5th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;35442272]
So Sherlock Holmes isn't art then? Because Holmes was killed off by Doyle and only revived after a huge public outcry.[/QUOTE]
On a completely unrelated note to the Mass Effect series about this, I found it a damn shame they killed off Moriarty in the second movie of the Sherlock Holmes series.
Also, there is nothing at all that says art can not be a product, or that a product can not be art. Infact the vast majority of art is produced entirely for money, to say the two are mutually exclusive is absurd.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;35442272]No. Movies undergo focus screening beforehand and often alter the story to fit the audience better. Authors often rewrite the events of their books if there is a negative fan reaction. Songs are often recut or remixed for listeners.
The idea of ~artistic vision~ is entirely juvenile. It demeans constructive criticism and implies that artists are somehow better than their audience. These are people who make mistakes, not Olympians tossing their greatness down for us mere mortals to enjoy.
[editline]5th April 2012[/editline]
So Sherlock Holmes isn't art then? Because Holmes was killed off by Doyle and only revived after a huge public outcry.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't. Artistic Vision is not juvenile. Its juvenile when you use it to try and brush away criticism, it is not juvenile to use it to refuse to change something. It is juvenile to use it to put yourself above others. It is also juvenile to refuse to explain or clarify your vision. BioWare is trying to keep their vision, while trying to appeal to the community. They compromised on this, they are extending the ending for more closure and explanation, the community is outright refusing this compromise. Who seems like a juvenile in this case?
Yeah if you're going to ask me to give you $60 dollars minimum, your artistic vision can fuck right off.
Where was your artistic integrity when this happened?
[img]http://thegamefanatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/razerme3-602x354.jpg[/img]
Because it almost seems as though you're a business, judging from how much money you're trying to wring out of people.
Or were $40 mousepads with red and white stripes on them your "artistic vision?" Because it seems to me, if you're worried about the art, you've got bigger fucking issues to deal with.
If this kind of shit is art, I will be glad to see it die.
Fact of the matter is I'm not going to be paying someone $60 USD just to watch them do whatever the fuck they want. I expect to get something that I want for that kind of money, and when I don't get it, I stop giving it. If you want to talk artistic rights, I'm going to talk consumer's rights.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442161]Wait, you guys actually expected BioWare to rewrite the entire ending just to satisfy you? I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. You can't force an artist to change their vision, you can ask them to explain and clarify their vision but to force them to change it would just be a giant fuck you to the artist, it would be saying that their vision does not matter at all, and they should only work if its in the interest of the consumer rather than the creator.[/QUOTE]
I have to say, I am at a complete loss as to where this "You have to respect my artistic vision!" stuff came from, especially when it comes to what is effectively commercialized art. Since when is it a disgrace for a video game to change based on fan feedback? Since when are videogames sacred, unalterable pieces of art?
Much like movies, video games have always been a combination between art and product. When a movie is met with poor reception in test screenings, the movie is often altered to improve its appeal, even if this comes at the cost of some "artistic vision." Same thing for videogames. The difference between videogames and movies is that thanks to DLC and widespread high-speed internet, videogames can easily be altered AFTER being released.
There is nothing artistic or admirable about defending a bad artistic choice. You know what's admirable? Being humble, admitting you made a bad decision, and respecting your customers.
The community is rejecting it because it ignores the main complains people have been presenting, Bioware are brushing off the criticsims of their audience and constantly congratulaing themselves for a job well done. Every single press statement from Bioware has focused more on how great they are and how proud they are of themselves while only barely touching on the criticisms presented to them.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35441835]The sound you're describing is at 1:35. It's more intimidating than most, but I don't hear any language.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3sD17Ovyk[/media][/QUOTE]
I love Reaper sounds which is weird because I don't like dubstep. :v:
[QUOTE=Arachnidus;35441986]Perhaps not language, but it sounds structured and different than normal Reaper noises. I'm almost certain it's not important, just thought it was interesting.[/QUOTE]
It's just going "hey guys, did I miss the party?" as it's just landing.
[QUOTE=Jackald;35442082]I've said it before and i'll say it again, I would love a pure downer ending. No hope, Shepard fighting to the death, reapers have won, maybe Liara's box gets through to the next cycle.[/QUOTE]
My dream was a couple radically different ending possibilies but I knew ever since ME2 that it wasn't gonna happen. Still, something like using the Catalyst, do your choice blah blah. Or you don't build the Catalyst in time / it gets destroyed, Reapers win, Liara box ending. Or finally you ignore the whole Catalyst business and decide not to build it, but rather gather a massive fleet, engage the Reapers at the Citadel trying to win conventionally, but ultimately fail cue blowing up the Citadel to wipe out a large part of the Reaper fleet, yourself, and your allied fleets in a huge explosion that wipes the Widow system but gives the races of the galaxy some chance to get their shit together in the future in a joint effort and defeat the Reapers.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442161]Wait, you guys actually expected BioWare to rewrite the entire ending just to satisfy you? I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. You can't force an artist to change their vision, you can ask them to explain and clarify their vision but to force them to change it would just be a giant fuck you to the artist, it would be saying that their vision does not matter at all, and they should only work if its in the interest of the consumer rather than the creator.[/QUOTE]
Oh god here we go with ~artistic integrity~ again.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;35442414]The community is rejecting it because it ignores the main complains people have been presenting, Bioware are brushing off the criticsims of their audience and constantly congratulaing themselves for a job well done. Every single press statement from Bioware has focused more on how great they are and how proud they are of themselves while only barely touching on the criticisms presented to them.[/QUOTE]
No the community is rejecting it because they refuse to budge on what they think the ending should be. All I've seen BioWare say is that they're proud of their team and respect their choices. Which they should be. There is a difference between caving into criticism and taking criticism into consideration.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442480]No the community is rejecting it because they refuse to budge on what they think the ending should be. All I've seen BioWare say is that they're proud of their team and respect their choices. Which they should be. There is a difference between caving into criticism and taking criticism into consideration.[/QUOTE]
There's also a difference between listening to consumers and telling consumers to fuck off because art.
The latter is not a good idea for a business. It puts the "starving" in "artist."
[QUOTE=Lankist;35442499]There's also a difference between listening to consumers and telling consumers to fuck off because art.
The latter is not a good idea for a business. It puts the "starving" in "artist."[/QUOTE]
Except they didn't tell consumers to fuck off, they decided to explain their vision and are attempting to try and have it make more sense.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442480]No the community is rejecting it because they refuse to budge on what they think the ending should be. All I've seen BioWare say is that they're proud of their team and respect their choices. Which they should be. There is a difference between caving into criticism and taking criticism into consideration.[/QUOTE]
So they're proud of making an objectively bad ending
okay
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442530]Except they didn't tell consumers to fuck off, they decided to explain their vision and are attempting to try and have it make more sense.[/QUOTE]
They can have their vision.
But they aren't entitled to any more money for it.
When ever I feel down about the ending I just watch this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kqVB15Yab4[/media]
why is that chatlog so god damn long
paraphrase motherfucker
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442480]No the community is rejecting it because they refuse to budge on what they think the ending should be. All I've seen BioWare say is that they're proud of their team and respect their choices. Which they should be. There is a difference between caving into criticism and taking criticism into consideration.[/QUOTE]
I'm proud of the team as well. What they've done overall is a monumental achievement and a damn good trilogy. HOWEVER, I will not respect the notion that they view what they've done as "sacred." While that may not be the word they're using, it's the implication that they're giving.
Look, a big part of why fans are upset is because of how Bioware is presenting their defense. If they said something like:
"We understand why fans are upset with how we constructed the ending of the game, and many of the frustrations are valid. Please understand that we did work hard on the ending and we did not intentionally mislead you. We would like to take this opportunity to explain the ending of the game and why we're proud of it. Hopefully this will give you a deeper understanding of why we did what we did and we can build a more constructive dialogue as to how we can make the best of this situation for everyone."
Then most people would at least be happy that Bioware is treating them with respect as well as providing (hopefully) a justifiable sense of reasoning behind the bizzare decision. Instead, all we're getting is "We're proud of what we've done, and we're not going to do whatever the hell you want."
[QUOTE=Lankist;35442538]They can have their vision.
But they aren't entitled to any more money for it.[/QUOTE]
Well the DLC is going to be free for 2 years. So I don't think they're asking for your money for a change in the ending.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442480]No the community is rejecting it because they refuse to budge on what they think the ending should be. All I've seen BioWare say is that they're proud of their team and respect their choices. Which they should be. There is a difference between caving into criticism and taking criticism into consideration.[/QUOTE]
Caving? They're not making agreat stand here. They're not fighting for the rigts of artists. They're clinging to a childish idea of what an artist is. They're not even taking the criticism into consideration, no one has asked for clarity. By clarifying the ending they [i]look[/i] like they're doing something, when they're actually giving a big middle finger to their critics.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;35442583]I'm proud of the team as well. What they've done overall is a monumental achievement and a damn good trilogy. HOWEVER, I will not respect the notion that they view what they've done as "sacred." While that may not be the word they're using, it's the implication that they're giving.
Look, a big part of why fans are upset is because of how Bioware is presenting their defense. If they said something like:
"We understand why fans are upset with how we constructed the ending of the game, and many of the frustrations are valid. Please understand that we did work hard on the ending and we did not intentionally mislead you. We would like to take this opportunity to explain the ending of the game and why we're proud of it. Hopefully this will give you a deeper understanding of why we did what we did and we can build a more constructive dialogue as to how we can make the best of this situation for everyone."
Then most people would at least be happy that Bioware is treating them with respect as well as providing (hopefully) a justifiable sense of reasoning behind the bizzare decision. Instead, all we're getting is "We're proud of what we've done, and we're not going to do whatever the hell you want."[/QUOTE]
I'm glad they're not going "We'll do whatever the hell the community wants". Half of the community the minute an argument comes up devolve into "Biodrone" or some other word they came up with as an "insult" for whoever disagrees with them. BioWare is also showing us some respect, they're changing the ending. If they wanted to give a real fuck you to the community they could refuse to change it whatsoever and tell us to grow the fuck up. But they didn't, because there is some respect for the community there.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;35442596]Well the DLC is going to be free for 2 years. So I don't think they're asking for your money for a change in the ending.[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about the ending, I'm talking about every single thing they make henceforth.
I know I'm simply not interested in giving them money. Not a boycott in any way, just sheer consumer disinterest. I have absolutely no desire to buy another Bioware product ever again, which was coincidentally the last EA brand I gave a shit about as well. I know quite a few people are leaning toward the same.
You may think that sounds reactionary, but think about all the shitty games you used to always buy and now don't give a shit about. I know I used to think Final Fantasy was amazing. Now, I don't even notice when one of those games comes out, let alone buy it.
I can't even blame this on EA, because at least EA knows how to operate a fucking business. This is all on Bioware being stubborn and telling their constituency to piss off because they don't understand how artistic this shit they paid for is. And they're going to suffer for it. Their brand has already been diluted into some shitty new Command and Conquer game and low-revenue MMO's with exceedingly short lifespans. A marked disregard for consumer expectations is just another nail in that coffin, and this brand is seriously going to suffer for it.
[QUOTE=Jackald;35442552]Darth is such a fucking biodrone.[/QUOTE]
Despite mass effect being the only bioware game I actually like?
sure
Still blows me away that they claim the ending is the team's vision, even though the Final Hours CLEARLY and DIRECTLY shows that everyone except Casey and Mac had nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=Jackald;35442593]Because I meticulously argued how the plot holes made no sense, but Darth is hellbent on pointing out how the endings are perfectly fine as they are and make perfect sense because, as he put it,
Darth GW[h+]³: like casey says
Darth GW[h+]³: I don't need it spelt out to me
Darth GW[h+]³: I'm quite happy to speculate
Darth GW[h+]³: I use my imagination[/QUOTE]
[quote]
Darth GW[h+]³: like casey says
Darth GW[h+]³: I don't need it spelt out to me
Darth GW[h+]³: I'm quite happy to speculate
Darth GW[h+]³: I use my imagination
Darth GW[h+]³: I imagine Shepard and EDI locking up in the bathroom and getting it on.
Darth GW[h+]³: Ohhhhh, yeeeeaaaaahhh.
[/quote]
BiowareFan.txt
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