[QUOTE=Jallen;27413004]No, because as previously stated it's just a skill like aiming. It's irrelevant that it's not an intended part of the gameplay. If it's not intended they should patch it or gamers should live with it.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't justify it one bit. Sometimes it is hard to patch out a exploit as old as FPS engines themselves. Physics engines are the one thing a developer is bound to not make themselves, so they won't put much effort into fixing it. It isn't intended gameplay, it makes the user a massive douche, at least if someone is just good at aiming you can hit them back if you get a upper hand, a good bunny hopper is impossible to hit on the other hand.
I've always hated bunnyhopping, to be honest. Especially the cunts who did it in Battlefield 2.
I consider it on the same level as the people who grab and release the flag over and over during Halo multiplayer. Yeah, it gives you a small boost, but it makes you look like an annoying twat. I've actually snatched the flag from people like that and ran it in myself.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;27413090]That doesn't justify it one bit. Sometimes it is hard to patch out a exploit as old as FPS engines themselves. Physics engines are the one thing a developer is bound to not make themselves, so they won't put much effort into fixing it. It isn't intended gameplay, it makes the user a massive douche, at least if someone is just good at aiming you can hit them back if you get a upper hand, a good bunny hopper is impossible to hit on the other hand.[/QUOTE]
Then be a good bunny hopper too.
If there's no restriction in the game, why impose one on yourself? It's just stupid to do so.
You're applying some kind of ridiculous moral that bunnyhopping is somehow cheating. The game enforces the rules, as long as you aren't using anything to bypass them I don't see what the problem is.
[QUOTE=Jallen;27413004]No, because as previously stated it's just a skill like aiming. It's irrelevant that it's not an intended part of the gameplay. If it's not intended they should patch it or gamers should live with it.[/QUOTE]
defending esoteric mechanics that arise as a unintended side effect is dumb as hell (because such mechanics are shit and game ruining 100% of the time)
there is nothing preventing a developer from intuitively implementing a mechanic such as bunnyhopping while maintaining the influence of skill
[QUOTE=Jallen;27414110]Then be a good bunny hopper too.
If there's no restriction in the game, why impose one on yourself? It's just stupid to do so.
You're applying some kind of ridiculous moral that bunnyhopping is somehow cheating. The game enforces the rules, as long as you aren't using anything to bypass them I don't see what the problem is.[/QUOTE]
Maybe people don't [i]want[/i] to bunnyhop? I can bunnyhop, but I hate doing it. Why should I be forced to do something I hate because some dickhead is exploiting the physics engine?
[QUOTE=Jallen;27414110]Then be a good bunny hopper too.
If there's no restriction in the game, why impose one on yourself? It's just stupid to do so.
You're applying some kind of ridiculous moral that bunnyhopping is somehow cheating. The game enforces the rules, as long as you aren't using anything to bypass them I don't see what the problem is.[/QUOTE]
The game tries and fails to enforce the rules. That's what makes it a glitch.
Just because the referee didn't catch you doesn't make it not cheating.
People don't limit themselves, they just don't know because the game wasn't made to be played that way. And if they like the game the way it was meant to be played why would they cheat to accommodate some glitching douchebag they can just voteban?
I only managed to bunny hop a few times on those TFC "jump" maps.
Then I felt carpel tunnel coming on.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;27414157]Maybe people don't [i]want[/i] to bunnyhop? I can bunnyhop, but I hate doing it. Why should I be forced to do something I hate because some dickhead is exploiting the physics engine?[/QUOTE]
Their loss then. If server admins don't like it then they can ban people for doing it. Otherwise I see no problem.
[editline]14th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ImBill;27414132]defending esoteric mechanics that arise as a unintended side effect is dumb as hell (because such mechanics are shit and game ruining 100% of the time)
there is nothing preventing a developer from intuitively implementing a mechanic such as bunnyhopping while maintaining the influence of skill[/QUOTE]
I can honestly say I have never seen bunnyhopping become "game ruining". It just adds another dimension which people can use to their advantage.
[IMG]http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae87/johny1337/ABhoppingartistsrendition.png[/IMG]
An artist's rendition of Bhopping.
(I made this myself very lazily in photoshop.)
This is why i miss games like quake 3 :saddowns:
[QUOTE=certified;27414749][img_thumb]http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae87/johny1337/ABhoppingartistsrendition.png[/img_thumb]
An artist's rendition of Bhopping.
(I made this myself very lazily in photoshop.)[/QUOTE]
You needed Photoshop for this piece of shit?
[editline]14th January 2011[/editline]
Everybody should try playing Warsow, you'll see, Bunnyhopping is awesome.
[quote]Xtreme-Jumps.eu has about 60,000 registered people.[/quote]
ahahahahahahaha
i had a spore modding forum with 25,000 registered users once
do you really think all 25,000 of those people still played spore?
number of registrations mean jack shit when measuring the size of a community.
[QUOTE=BENJA5;27393217][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ75jgcF02E[/media][/QUOTE]
Holy shit, that map looks awesome. I can't believe they make maps like that.
I've always believed that tactical skill should be focused on more than basic skills like aiming and whatnot.
When I play FPS games, I always do well and am either at the very top of the leaderboards or near the top. However, I am far from being the best at aiming. I can't twitch-aim to save my life, I don't do any nifty switching weapons bullshit or anything like that. The reason why I still do better than everyone else is because I am simply smarter than them.
You'd think "common sense" maneuvers like flanking and whatnot would be used by everyone in every game, but that is far from being the case. Everyone just runs around doing stupid shit, going the same routes and making every engagement a "who can aim faster" contest. To me, aiming fast and accurate isn't a skill. Bunny hopping isn't a skill. Being able to stick someone with a semtex from 50 meters away isn't a skill.
Having the jump on your enemies is a skill. I consider my ability to be the guy that is [i]always[/i] coming up from behind you or from the one direction you didn't check as being far more valuable than being able to 360 no-scope someone. That guy in the bunny hopping video someone posted took the [i]same[/i] routes and had a very repetitious pattern of movement. He'd tag me the first few times, but eventually it'd be piss easy to anticipate where he's going to come from.
I'm convinced that most people that play video games are borderline retarded, not just the little 12 year old kids.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;27417288]I've always believed that tactical skill should be focused on more than basic skills like aiming and whatnot.
When I play FPS games, I always do well and am either at the very top of the leaderboards or near the top. However, I am far from being the best at aiming. I can't twitch-aim to save my life, I don't do any nifty switching weapons bullshit or anything like that. The reason why I still do better than everyone else is because I am simply smarter than them.
You'd think "common sense" maneuvers like flanking and whatnot would be used by everyone in every game, but that is far from being the case. Everyone just runs around doing stupid shit, going the same routes and making every engagement a "who can aim faster" contest. To me, aiming fast and accurate isn't a skill. Bunny hopping isn't a skill. Being able to stick someone with a semtex from 50 meters away isn't a skill.
Having the jump on your enemies is a skill. I consider my ability to be the guy that is [i]always[/i] coming up from behind you or from the one direction you didn't check as being far more valuable than being able to 360 no-scope someone. That guy in the bunny hopping video someone posted took the [i]same[/i] routes and had a very repetitious pattern of movement. He'd tag me the first few times, but eventually it'd be piss easy to anticipate where he's going to come from.
I'm convinced that most people that play video games are borderline retarded, not just the little 12 year old kids.[/QUOTE]
Thinking ahead and knowing peoples quirks is the ultimate tool in a shooter. When playing against anyone you begin to notice patterns in their attack, defense and movement. Once you have figure that out, setting up traps, or simply being able to adjust your aim before they reach that point can usually mean you take them out before their "l33T tw1TCheZZzz" have a hope in hell of hitting you.
Does not work against bunny hoppers mind you as hitboxes get fucked up at the speeds they can reach.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;27417288]I consider my ability to be the guy that is [i]always[/i] coming up from behind you[/QUOTE]
And I'm the guy that can turn around and one shot you before you can do much of anything, but like you said, aim is a skill. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Lazor;27416961]ahahahahahahaha
i had a spore modding forum with 25,000 registered users once
do you really think all 25,000 of those people still played spore?
number of registrations mean jack shit when measuring the size of a community.[/QUOTE]
Okay, here's something else for you then.
Here are pageviews of Xtreme-Jumps.eu and garrysmod.com
[IMG]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=400&h=220&o=f&c=1&y=p&b=ffffff&n=666666&r=3m&u=xtreme-jumps.eu&&u=garrysmod.com&[/IMG]
Speaking of twitch... if you're having problems with someone out twitching you, don't try to beat them at that. That is impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.
Zen beats everything.
[QUOTE=BENJA5;27417513]Okay, here's something else for you then.
Here are pageviews of Xtreme-Jumps.eu and garrysmod.com
[img_thumb]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=400&h=220&o=f&c=1&y=p&b=ffffff&n=666666&r=3m&u=xtreme-jumps.eu&&u=garrysmod.com&[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
let's fix this graph. nobody uses garrymod.com because it's basically just an official blog for garry and whoever else is writing shit there
how about for xtreme-jumps, and garrysmod[b].org[/b], you know, the website where all the community created content is hosted?
[img_thumb]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=400&h=220&o=f&c=1&y=p&b=ffffff&n=666666&r=3m&u=xtreme-jumps.eu&&u=garrysmod.org&[/img_thumb]
yeah nice try
[editline]14th January 2011[/editline]
not that page views are the best way of measuring the size of a community either
[QUOTE=BENJA5;27417513]Okay, here's something else for you then.
Here are pageviews of Xtreme-Jumps.eu and garrysmod.com
[img_thumb]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=400&h=220&o=f&c=1&y=p&b=ffffff&n=666666&r=3m&u=xtreme-jumps.eu&&u=garrysmod.com&[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
Oh cool, Garrysmod.com is beating your community, and it's just a news site that's not updated every day... What are you trying to show?
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;27417288]I've always believed that tactical skill should be focused on more than basic skills like aiming and whatnot.
When I play FPS games, I always do well and am either at the very top of the leaderboards or near the top. However, I am far from being the best at aiming. I can't twitch-aim to save my life, I don't do any nifty switching weapons bullshit or anything like that. The reason why I still do better than everyone else is because I am simply smarter than them.
You'd think "common sense" maneuvers like flanking and whatnot would be used by everyone in every game, but that is far from being the case. Everyone just runs around doing stupid shit, going the same routes and making every engagement a "who can aim faster" contest. To me, aiming fast and accurate isn't a skill. Bunny hopping isn't a skill. Being able to stick someone with a semtex from 50 meters away isn't a skill.
Having the jump on your enemies is a skill. I consider my ability to be the guy that is [i]always[/i] coming up from behind you or from the one direction you didn't check as being far more valuable than being able to 360 no-scope someone. [B]That guy in the bunny hopping video someone posted took the [i]same[/i] routes and had a very repetitious pattern of movement. He'd tag me the first few times, but eventually it'd be piss easy to anticipate where he's going to come from.[/B]
I'm convinced that most people that play video games are borderline retarded, not just the little 12 year old kids.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the majority of FPS players are idiots who repeat the same moves and such, but when they are running the map it can be very hard to break their flow, especially on Q3 maps where there are less than 4 power items.
DM6 for example is very difficult to take control back on when someone's efficient at timing and getting around the map. You're constantly at a health and armour disadvantage and the only way you're going to get back on top is either with pro aiming skill, extreme stealth collecting shards and green hp's, your enemy making a mistake in their runs, or just plain luck.
In games like call of duty, yes it's definitely a case of everybody being an idiot pretty much and you just have to put yourself in the right situation to start racking up kills.
Sign up to quake live and play some duels. I guarantee you will be in for a world of frustration. Quake duelers are fucking tricky.
If this isn't playing smart I don't know what is (also down to incredible aim for his win though):
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytfwYUB1krA[/media]
i hate jump-diving in FPS games
how is bunnyhopping giving you an unfair advantage? anyone can fucking bunnyhop thats like saying people who use weapons have an unfair advantage over people who dont
i agree with OP movement is the single most important thing in games
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;27417288]I've always believed that tactical skill should be focused on more than basic skills like aiming and whatnot.
When I play FPS games, I always do well and am either at the very top of the leaderboards or near the top. However, I am far from being the best at aiming. I can't twitch-aim to save my life, I don't do any nifty switching weapons bullshit or anything like that. The reason why I still do better than everyone else is because I am simply smarter than them.
You'd think "common sense" maneuvers like flanking and whatnot would be used by everyone in every game, but that is far from being the case. Everyone just runs around doing stupid shit, going the same routes and making every engagement a "who can aim faster" contest. To me, aiming fast and accurate isn't a skill. Bunny hopping isn't a skill. Being able to stick someone with a semtex from 50 meters away isn't a skill.
Having the jump on your enemies is a skill. I consider my ability to be the guy that is [i]always[/i] coming up from behind you or from the one direction you didn't check as being far more valuable than being able to 360 no-scope someone. That guy in the bunny hopping video someone posted took the [i]same[/i] routes and had a very repetitious pattern of movement. He'd tag me the first few times, but eventually it'd be piss easy to anticipate where he's going to come from.
I'm convinced that most people that play video games are borderline retarded, not just the little 12 year old kids.[/QUOTE]
Are you implying that advanced movement techniques, well practiced prediction and twitch aiming beget the inability to navigate a map in a manner most subversive? Because I can assure you while that may be the case for some people, especially those who become complacent in their ability, it certainly isn't the case, these things only serve to compliment being unpredictable by making sneak attacks more deadly and disorientating.
I don't know what video you are talking about, but common bunny hopping videos have people jumping around a map in a practiced streamlined route, when there are no opponents on the field this is common practice because there's no penalty for being predictable. You can see an example of unpredictable movement assisted map navigation in Quake duels between two good players.
However it really should be restricted to games that are made with it in mind, it would be out of place in game like Arma.
Bunnyhop is cool, and people calling it "unbalanced" are stupid 12 year olds thinking life is fair, but it is not. Its not fair, i bunnyhop in real life, [B]its called sprinting[/B], its the same, make your feet hit the ground in a correct rythm in order to get a long leap and consume the least energy, tap spacebar in the correct rythm, while aiming is just as hard.
[QUOTE=Riutet;27418354]Are you implying that advanced movement techniques, well practiced prediction and twitch aiming beget the inability to navigate a map in a manner most subversive? Because I can assure you while that may be the case for some people, especially those who become complacent in their ability, it certainly isn't the case, these things only serve to compliment being unpredictable by making sneak attacks more deadly and disorientating.
I don't know what video you are talking about, but common bunny hopping videos have people jumping around a map in a practiced streamlined route, when there are no opponents on the field this is common practice because there's no penalty for being predictable. You can see an example of unpredictable movement assisted map navigation in Quake duels between two good players.
However it really should be restricted to games that are made with it in mind, it would be out of place in game like Arma.[/QUOTE]
Except people don't use tactics and whatnot. You can talk about how advanced movement techniques and whatnot supplement tactical movements, but the bottom line is that people do not use tactical movements in games. The mere fact that I, someone who has mediocre aiming skills (I'm not bad, but I'm not fantastic either), can consistently top leaderboards in nearly every game I play speaks for this. I don't do anything advanced or incredibly tricky, I just use common tactical sense.
The video I watched was one someone posted of a guy bunnyhopping in CS, massacring the other team while they try to call him a hacker. Throughout the entire video, he uses the same routes and approaches from the same places. I'm not impressed by Quake duel videos. Sure, they fly around like crazy, but they use very rudimentary "tactics." It's pretty much a case of grabbing all the powerups/items you can, then finding the other guy. The farthest I see them go tactically is going around and trying to intercept a retreating enemy. Real unpredictable. I used to play Quake a long time ago and a simple trick like pretending I'm retreating, then continuing forward to end up behind my enemy (who went to intercept me) worked every fucking time.
As long as bunnyhopping doesn't break the game (like fucking with hitboxes or whatever), I'm fine with it because the people that use it tend to be retarded. I love games like CoD because it doesn't take 10 years to kill someone, so the best twitch shooter won't be able to turn around and bust off a headshot on me despite me getting the jump on them. My aim is good enough to not miss someone that isn't engaging me.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;27419652]Except people don't use tactics and whatnot. You can talk about how advanced movement techniques and whatnot supplement tactical movements, but the bottom line is that people do not use tactical movements in games. The mere fact that I, someone who has mediocre aiming skills (I'm not bad, but I'm not fantastic either), can consistently top leaderboards in nearly every game I play speaks for this. I don't do anything advanced or incredibly tricky, I just use common tactical sense.[/quote]
Then clearly you're playing with bad players, or players far below your level of ability, I would suggest stepping things up and challenging yourself by putting yourself on a playing field with people who do the same things, try getting into competitive Call of Duty or something?
[quote]The video I watched was one someone posted of a guy bunnyhopping in CS, massacring the other team while they try to call him a hacker. Throughout the entire video, he uses the same routes and approaches from the same places. I'm not impressed by Quake duel videos. Sure, they fly around like crazy, but they use very rudimentary "tactics." It's pretty much a case of grabbing all the powerups/items you can, then finding the other guy. The farthest I see them go tactically is going around and trying to intercept a retreating enemy. Real unpredictable. I used to play Quake a long time ago and a simple trick like pretending I'm retreating, then continuing forward to end up behind my enemy (who went to intercept me) worked every fucking time.[/quote]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58[/media]
About 4 minutes in.
"Grabbing all the powerups" is a tactic, both players can get them, and stopping the player from getting them while getting them yourself is a test of skill, taking note of where the player is and denying them from their objective is a test of skill, out twitch aiming the other guy is a test of skill, predicting where the enemy player is going to be and planting a shot there is also a skill. This is just what you're talking about when you talk about "common tactical sense", only with a bunch of other skills in play too.
They're all different skills, and each one must be used together collectively to out do the other player, you dismiss the actual thought that goes into the plays they make, yet you praise the mindlessness that is Call of Duty? Your simple tricks won't work on good players, they're good because they're reactive, they constantly change their strategies when things don't work, when things do work, they don't change what they're doing until it stops working.
That CS player didn't need to change up what he was doing, it worked. If you had been there and after dying four times after he used the same route over and over again, got the drop on him by preying on his predictability, the likely outcome is he'd just change what he was doing and get you another four times, or realise that you're paying attention to what he does and change up what he does constantly, a player who can bunny hop but doesn't learn from his mistakes, is a bad player and bunny hopping isn't to blame for that.
[quote]As long as bunnyhopping doesn't break the game (like fucking with hitboxes or whatever), I'm fine with it because the people that use it tend to be retarded. I love games like CoD because it doesn't take 10 years to kill someone, so the best twitch shooter won't be able to turn around and bust off a headshot on me despite me getting the jump on them. My aim is good enough to not miss someone that isn't engaging me.[/QUOTE]
You are aware that getting the jump on someone is a meager example of skill, you can get the jump on someone without even trying, in Call of Duty where there's no defined line between one team's side and the others', getting the jump on someone is common, easy and not to mention unrewardingly repetitive. So you can put them down in three shots from your semi-automatic rifle when they aren't looking in your direction and can't combat you in any way, congratulations, you've thrown away all other trials of skill in the pursuit of but one element of skillful play that requires a minor amount of thought to be good at.
Ambushing people is a good tactic, but it shouldn't be the end all tactic, the finisher, it should merely give you a way in which you can cause more immediate damage, an advantage tipping the battle in your favour without instantly ending it. Because then things turn into Call of Duty mode, where you're just running around a map fairly aimlessly hoping you don't get seen first so you can see other people first and get those easy to land shots in before they realise you're there, all day every day. Honestly if you like that, fine, but know that it's hardly a test of ability (it's a test of one ability that often can just come down to luck outside of controllable circumstances) and you're wrong for thinking it is.
Simulations and realistic games are exempt from this because they aren't trying to be a test of skill or have some decent "gamey" mechanics, they're just trying to create an experience similar to that of real life.
I think "advanced techniques" and the like are best kept to competitive games meant to accommodate them. Things get weird when a game has a community that's split between pubbers/normal players and people who can do all sorts of crazy things with the game's engine. Granted they're usually separated to some degree, but I just hate the infighting that springs up when they interact.
[QUOTE=Orayn;27421695]I think "advanced techniques" and the like are best kept to competitive games meant to accommodate them. Things get weird when a game has a community that's split between pubbers/normal players and people who can do all sorts of crazy things with the game's engine. Granted they're usually separated to some degree, but I just hate the infighting that springs up when they interact.[/QUOTE]
I think more effort should be put into normalising "advanced techniques" so that they aren't advanced techniques, but common techniques used by all, rather than just removing them so people don't feel alienated, I miss games with high skill ceilings.
i hate like in deard rising you can barely fucking move it may as well be a rail shooter
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