[QUOTE=EliteGuy;37236369]PL isn't terrible at all, he's one of the best late game pushers.
Just because you expect him to be a star hero within the first ten minutes doesn't make it so, same applies to alchemist.[/QUOTE]
phantom lancer is probably one of the worst heroes in dota 2 right now if not the worst, he takes too long to be relevant and is still countered by heavy aoe
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236321]Can somebody explain to me how lycan is balanced?[/QUOTE]
He doesn't scale as well as other heroes, and as a result, does far worse in shin kicking contests than most conventional carries. He pushes, but he loses out on team fight power.
On the power curve, he's certainly near the top, but it's more that he fundamentally alters how the game is played than anything specific with regards to his skills.
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236400]phantom lancer is probably one of the worst heroes in dota 2 right now if not the worst, he takes too long to be relevant and is still countered by heavy aoe[/QUOTE]
That heavy AoE has it's drawbacks. If they don't kill PL right away along with illusions, he will just rebuild them in seconds.
Even Leshrac can only keep up his AoE for so long, and then he will have cooldown on everything but Nova, PL is about outlasting that, outmanuvering that and then striking.
[QUOTE=Tokagero;37236556]That heavy AoE has it's drawbacks. If they don't kill PL right away along with illusions, he will just rebuild them in seconds.
[/QUOTE]
its not like hes a super hard hero to kill, his escape mechanism is countered by a dust or gem and he has no HP until he gets a heart or vanguard, which only delays any items that do actual damage.
ontop of the fact that he cant push until he has a radiance, he cant gank, and can barely teamfight makes him a practically useless hero until he has a full inventory, and against any competent team your base will be dead by the time he has his items
[QUOTE=Tokagero;37236556]That heavy AoE has it's drawbacks. If they don't kill PL right away along with illusions, he will just rebuild them in seconds.
Even Leshrac can only keep up his AoE for so long, and then he will have cooldown on everything but Nova, PL is about outlasting that, outmanuvering that and then striking.[/QUOTE]
He needs almost as much farm as spectre to be able to do anything (yes, i know, that's how carries work but he's outclassed by pretty much everybody) and even then, aoe combos rape him (tide, windrunner, etc).
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236664]He needs almost as much farm as spectre to be able to do anything (yes, i know, that's how carries work but he's outclassed by pretty much everybody) and even then, aoe combos rape him (tide, windrunner, etc).[/QUOTE]
His only real unique trait if that he is the only hero in the game that can truly split push by himself.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236321]Can somebody explain to me how lycan is balanced?[/QUOTE]
He's not.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37236532]He doesn't scale as well as other heroes, and as a result, does far worse in shin kicking contests than most conventional carries. He pushes, but he loses out on team fight power.
On the power curve, he's certainly near the top, but it's more that he fundamentally alters how the game is played than anything specific with regards to his skills.[/QUOTE]
He scales amazingly, what are you on? A crit AND a percentage buff to his attack speed AND a rtoo damn high stat gain.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37236532]He doesn't scale as well as other heroes, and as a result, does far worse in shin kicking contests than most conventional carries. He pushes, but he loses out on team fight power.
On the power curve, he's certainly near the top, but it's more that he fundamentally alters how the game is played than anything specific with regards to his skills.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, except for the fact that he has 300dmg after 20 mins with virtually no items (treads, vlads, bkb) and he will repeatedly poop on the enemy team and push the shit out of them while giving your main carry enough space to free farm till nobody on the other team can stand up to him cuz they're all underleveled and underfarmed.
Not even pro players want to deal with his bullshit and he's been pretty much the only number 1 ban since his release. Also, he farms so fast that you can't really 'shut him down'. I've had games where his jungle was constantly triple warded (small, pull camp and medium) and got killed like 6 times early game but he still outcarried everybody with a 20/8 score.
[QUOTE=RagerTrader;37236751]He scales amazingly, what are you on? A crit AND a percentage buff to his attack speed AND a rtoo damn high stat gain.[/QUOTE]
no he doesnt actaully scale well at all and just about evrey agility hero will outcarry him after 40 minutes, the hard part is actaully getting to 40 minutes with him on the enemy team
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236785]no he doesnt actaully scale well at all and just about evrey agility hero will outcarry him after 40 minutes, the hard part is actaully getting to 40 minutes with him on the enemy team[/QUOTE]
The fact that he gets so powerful by 20 minutes is the issue, not that he gets outcarried 20 minutes later
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236785]no he doesnt actaully scale well at all and just about evrey agility hero will outcarry him after 40 minutes, the hard part is actaully getting to 40 minutes with him on the enemy team[/QUOTE]
except as i explained, even if you get to the 40 min mark. Since he has had the farm and map control all game and your carries have been turtling because of him and therefore are underleveled and underfarmed, lycan will still poop on everybody.
he also has the ability to bounce back from [I]any [/I]early game setbacks with ease. no matter how often you gank him, the second you let up the pressure he will have his junk farmed up three minutes later and then it's gg because he'll be pushing every tower and eating your supports for breakfast.
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236785]no he doesnt actaully scale well at all and just about evrey agility hero will outcarry him after 40 minutes, the hard part is actaully getting to 40 minutes with him on the enemy team[/QUOTE]
That doesn't really matter if can't do quite as much damage when he has 3x as much health.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236822]except as i explained, even if you get to the 40 min mark. Since he has had the farm and map control all game and your carries have been turtling, lycan will still poop on everybody.[/QUOTE]
not if you actaully know what you're doing and you go harass his jungling, ward roshan and gank him consistently. his stat gains arent even that ridiculous and the only reason hes so good in pub games is because no one actaully tries to counter him. of course hes going to kill you when you let him get complete freefarm and a free roshan for 20 minutes
ohhhh so he's balanced you just have to kill him every time he sets foot outside his base from level 1 onwards. that makes much more sense, thank you for clearing this up. time to stop banning him EG, if only you'd thought of [I]ganking him[/I] before!
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236857]not if you actaully know what you're doing and you go harass his jungling, ward roshan and gank him consistently. his stat gains arent even that ridiculous and the only reason hes so good in pub games is because no one actaully tries to counter him. of course hes going to kill you when you let him get complete freefarm and a free roshan for 20 minutes[/QUOTE]
Kill a lycan 4 times, completely ward his jungle. So he can't farm, and MAYBE you will shut him down.
What other fucking hero requires that much work to make it so he doesn't dominate the game? the answer is no one. Having a character where 3 member of your team have to actively work to ruin his game so he doesn't fucking auto-win isn't balanced.
Lycan is a broken piece of shit and if you think otherwise you are either retarded or you are lying to protect your free-win button.
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236857]not if you actaully know what you're doing and you go harass his jungling, ward roshan and gank him consistently. his stat gains arent even that ridiculous and the only reason hes so good in pub games is because no one actaully tries to counter him. of course hes going to kill you when you let him get complete freefarm and a free roshan for 20 minutes[/QUOTE]
That's bullshit. Why is he the number 1 ban in comp games, if he's so easily countered? He farms so fast that you cannot shut him down and even with vlads and necro books alone, he pushes harder than leshrac.
[QUOTE=RagerTrader;37236912]Kill a lycan 4 times, completely ward his jungle. So he can't farm, and MAYBE you will shut him down.
What other fucking hero requires that much work to make it so he doesn't dominate the game? the answer is no one. Having a character where 3 member of your team have to actively work to ruin his game so he doesn't fucking auto-win isn't balanced.
Lycan is a broken piece of shit and if you think otherwise you are either retarded or you are lying to protect your free-win button.[/QUOTE]
ive beaten lycan many times by simply picking chen and patrolling his jungle, you can ward his small camp and go kill him when he tries to kill camps he can barely take on. ontop of the fact chen is almost always a solid pick and he allows you to have insane ganking and push potential, maybe try it next time you have to play against scary imba lycan
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37236976]ive beaten lycan many times by simply picking chen and patrolling his jungle, you can ward his small camp and go kill him when he tries to kill camps he can barely take on. ontop of the fact chen is almost always a solid pick and he allows you to have insane ganking and push potential, maybe try it next time you have to play against scary imba lycan[/QUOTE]
LOL, so your entire argument is based on you beating a pub lycan? haha.
[editline]14th August 2012[/editline]
I've carried pub games with dagon 5 pugna too but that doesn't mean pugna isn't trash.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236991]LOL, so your entire argument is based on you beating a pub lycan? haha.
[editline]14th August 2012[/editline]
I've carried pub games with dagon 5 pugna too but that doesn't mean pugna isn't trash.[/QUOTE]
i didnt know you were a pro player, infact im almost sure we were talking about lycan destroying pub games and how to stop that, pelase try to read before you look like an idiot
From reddit:
[t]http://i.imgur.com/t8LAr.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/ZQxXi.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236822]except as i explained, even if you get to the 40 min mark. Since he has had the farm and map control all game and your carries have been turtling because of him and therefore are underleveled and underfarmed, lycan will still poop on everybody.[/QUOTE]
That's where my point comes in about how he alters the game. He allows you to get the map dominance allowing him to maintain a gold lead. He punishes aggressive play because he just shows up where you aren't and forces people to run back. With equivalent farm, any number of heroes have a bigger impact in direct engagements, but lycan is all about never bothering with direct fights unless it's convienient. He's perfectly fine just shoving lanes all day and never getting a kill.
Without a gold lead, he isn't nearly as devastating. Without having tower leads it's the same thing. Pro teams don't like facing him because he makes it frustratingly difficult to capitalize on things. He forces nearly everything to be trades. If lycan is up after you wiped 3 other people on his team, he can push any other lane while you go for a tower. At worst he does damage to the tower, and at best he trades for it.
And to top it all off, he's so damn piss easy to play it isn't even funny.
Activate all three of your NON-TARGETED, NON-AOE, NON-SKILLSHOT spells and then rightclick the enemy tower/players.
Congrats, you are a grand-master lycan player.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37236952]That's bullshit. Why is he the number 1 ban in comp games, if he's so easily countered? He farms so fast that you cannot shut him down and even with vlads and necro books alone, he pushes harder than leshrac.[/QUOTE]
Because he alters how the game is played. Same with dark seer. They force you into certain playstyles and positions, and that reduces your potential options throughout the draft, and throughout the game.
[QUOTE=Fancy Parrot;37237041]i didnt know you were a pro player, infact im almost sure we were talking about lycan destroying pub games and how to stop that, pelase try to read before you look like an idiot[/QUOTE]
Nobody here claimed they we're pro players. We are talking about lycan ruining the game and automatically winning the game for whatever team he's on. You're the one who suggested he can easily be shut down which is not the case. Also, i've never seen a pub chen player that doesn't suck dick.
[editline]14th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37237092]Because he alters how the game is played. Same with dark seer. They force you into certain playstyles and positions, and that reduces your potential options throughout the draft, and throughout the game.[/QUOTE]
After his ult nerf, he went from that scary team fight hero to merely annoying.
[QUOTE=Tokagero;37236556]That heavy AoE has it's drawbacks. If they don't kill PL right away along with illusions, he will just rebuild them in seconds.
Even Leshrac can only keep up his AoE for so long, and then he will have cooldown on everything but Nova, PL is about outlasting that, outmanuvering that and then striking.[/QUOTE]
Kunkka can just 1shot his illusions
[QUOTE=titopei;37237150]Kunkka can just 1shot his illusions[/QUOTE]
To be fair, Kunkka can oneshot a whole team with enough farm.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37237120]Nobody here claimed they we're pro players. We are talking about lycan ruining the game and automatically winning the game for whatever team he's on. You're the one who suggested he can easily be shut down which is not the case.
[/QUOTE]
except that is the case, and i already explained how to do it, its not hard to buy a set of wards and ward 2 camps and then go kill him, ive done it plenty of times before and ive had it done to me before.
the only actually OP hero in the game is dark seer
[QUOTE=aydin690;37237120]After his ult nerf, he went from that scary team fight hero to merely annoying.[/QUOTE]
Dark seers ult can't be used for pushing anymore. That's the only way that it is worse. In many cases it's more devastating than before. It's borderline impossible to fight uphill into a darkseer agh wall now. Before you could under some situations where you had a considerable advantage.
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