[QUOTE=dual elites;37238491]and dark seer is also great, what's your point? are you trying to say "dark seer exists therefore lycan isn't overpowered"? because that is a retarded argument[/QUOTE]
Actually that's a pretty good argument. Welcome to DOTA. Almost everything is overpowered. Ergo, very little is.
[QUOTE=dual elites;37238528]so what are lycan's weaknesses?[/QUOTE]
Ghost scepter prevents him from ever doing anything to you without some form of castable disable item like an abyssal.
He has no built in mobility besides his ultimate, which doesn't give him magic immunity, resistance, or a blink.
He has no built in snare or disable of any kind.
He must maintain a considerable gold lead to maintain his relevance in team fights compared to many of the 'conventional hard carries'.
I've had a losing streak
what do I do to stop it
[QUOTE=aydin690;37237838]Pro teams are as coordinated as it gets, right? Maybe you should explain to me why he is pretty much the only insta-ban hero in the game. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]
You've conveniently ignored what I've repeatedly said. He fundamentally alters how the match is played, and him being in the pool automatically limits your potential picks because only certain lineups can deal with him, and he also fundamentally limits your choices in the game once he is in it, regardless of your linup. He can be dealt with, but it's very easy to be drafted into a hole with him in the pool at all. The first round of bans are almost always heroes that you do not want to face for one reason or another. You want as many options as possible for your team, and as few as possible for the enemy team. He basically eliminates a third of the carries in the game when he is picked because they cannot get online fast enough to compete with him, even though they can crush him if they ever manage to get there. Teams fucking HATE that, because many of those hard carrys like anti mage, void, mirana, etc can be played as utility semi carries in some linueps as well.
You are also ignoring his win rate which hasn't exactly been disgusting in most of the major tournaments. Sure it's above 50%, but it's not like it's 80% or anything. You also don't seem to be bitching about naga siren at all, and she has been banned/picked on the same level because of her equally obnoxious play style and skill set.
[QUOTE=Tokagero;37238500]Actually, I like how someone described Lycan before. Not sure who though.
Lycan is essentially big angry creep. He has no form of affecting enemy, other than damaging them.
He can summon wolves, for scouting, but mainly for damage.
He can increase his/allies/minion damage.
His passive effectively increases his damage.
His ultimate gives him MS, some health and mostly damage/chance to do damage.
Nothing else, no utility whatsoever.
Anti-Mage has mini-stun, manaburn and blink. Faceless void has bash, blink, dodge and AoE disable. Naga Siren has snare, - armor aoe nuke, pause button and illusions, etc.
Lycan has only damage, a lot of it, but only damage.[/QUOTE]
Oh my god I just realised how to win against Lycan !
PREVENT HIM TO DO DAMAGE.
It was so simple.
Might be late, but what's the update?
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37238651]
Ghost scepter prevents him from ever doing anything to you without some form of castable disable item like an abyssal.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, for a whopping 4 seconds after which he proceeds to rip your face off.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37238778]You've conveniently ignored what I've repeatedly said. He fundamentally alters how the match is played, and him being in the pool automatically limits your potential picks because only certain lineups can deal with him, and he also fundamentally limits your choices in the game once he is in it, regardless of your linup. He can be dealt with, but it's very easy to be drafted into a hole with him in the pool at all.[/QUOTE]
So he's not broken, he just dominates pubs and forces entire competitive teams to be built around countering him? What is your fucking metric for broken if that doesn't qualify?
[QUOTE=aydin690;37238957]Yeah, for a whopping 4 seconds after which he proceeds to rip your face off.[/QUOTE]
What about disablers like Bane & Batrider?
They aren't hard counters but, with proper teamwork, they can put a dent in Lycan's impact on an enemy team.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37238778]You've conveniently ignored what I've repeatedly said. He fundamentally alters how the match is played, and him being in the pool automatically limits your potential picks because only certain lineups can deal with him, and he also fundamentally limits your choices in the game once he is in it, regardless of your linup. He can be dealt with, but it's very easy to be drafted into a hole with him in the pool at all. The first round of bans are almost always heroes that you do not want to face for one reason or another. You want as many options as possible for your team, and as few as possible for the enemy team. He basically eliminates a third of the carries in the game when he is picked because they cannot get online fast enough to compete with him, even though they can crush him if they ever manage to get there. Teams fucking HATE that, because many of those hard carrys like anti mage, void, mirana, etc can be played as utility semi carries in some linueps as well.[/QUOTE]
But isn't that the definition of overpowered/broken? By picking one single hero you're forcing the other team to change their play style and dedicate 3 heroes to slowing that one hero.
[editline]14th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tokagero;37238500]Actually, I like how someone described Lycan before. Not sure who though.
Lycan is essentially big angry creep. He has no form of affecting enemy, other than damaging them.
He can summon wolves, for scouting, but mainly for damage.
He can increase his/allies/minion damage.
His passive effectively increases his damage.
His ultimate gives him MS, some health and mostly damage/chance to do damage.
Nothing else, no utility whatsoever.
Anti-Mage has mini-stun, manaburn and blink. Faceless void has bash, blink, dodge and AoE disable. Naga Siren has snare, - armor aoe nuke, pause button and illusions, etc.
Lycan has only damage, a lot of it, but only damage.[/QUOTE]
K, let's see, in order to win a dota game you need to kill the enemy heroes and destroy their towers. Let's see what we need to achieve that, yeah that's right, uninterruptable and unstoppable damage output which lycan is more than happy to deliver.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37238957]Yeah, for a whopping 4 seconds after which he proceeds to rip your face off.[/QUOTE]
See my edit. I submitted too soon.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37239006]But isn't that the definition of overpowered/broken? By picking one single hero you're forcing the other team to change their play style and dedicate 3 heroes to slowing that one hero.[/QUOTE]
No. That's why bans exist. To allow you to remove heroes that you do not wish to see in the game for one reason or another. You can be unwilling to ever play against something without it being broken. Many of the heroes he forces off the table are signature heroes for people.
Being broken would require him to have a monstrously high winrate, which he simply doesn't have.
*Disclaimer. I am basing these statements around professional levels of play. Pub play isn't as relevant to balance discussion in my eyes. Balance should always be focused around competitive, with the occasional nod to prevent griefing, exploitation, and hilariously broken things for moderately skilled individuals. Exceedingly bad players largely win through randomness and brief periods of not sucking as much as the other team.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37239140]No. That's why bans exist.[/QUOTE]
And if someone is banned every game without fail pretty much?
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37238651]
Ghost scepter prevents him from ever doing anything to you without some form of castable disable item like an abyssal.
He has no built in mobility besides his ultimate, which doesn't give him magic immunity, resistance, or a blink.
He has no built in snare or disable of any kind.
He must maintain a considerable gold lead to maintain his relevance in team fights compared to many of the 'conventional hard carries'.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but the problem is that he farms way too fast and he can have a vlads, basher and bkb in less than 30mins.
I've been doing good with Lina. Everyone always plays her support. I'm like 110% sure she works better in an anti-carry (especially squishy ones or ones without natural magic resistance bonuses (basically all of them except a few)) or semi-carry role. Go mid, get some items and maybe first blood on your lane enemy at level 6, then once you have phase boots and bottle, roam and fuck dudes up. Enemy lycan on the team? Stop in to say hello and burst him into the fucking dust because most lycan players aren't [I]that[/I] good, though I've seen crazy shit like 5 minute aegis in pubs.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37239140]
No. That's why bans exist. To allow you to remove heroes that you do not wish to see in the game for one reason or another. You can be unwilling to ever play against something without it being broken. Many of the heroes he forces off the table are signature heroes for people.
Being broken would require him to have a monstrously high winrate, which he simply doesn't have.
*Disclaimer. I am basing these statements around professional levels of play. Pub play isn't as relevant to balance discussion in my eyes. Balance should always be focused around competitive, with the occasional nod to prevent griefing, exploitation, and hilariously broken things for moderately skilled individuals. Exceedingly bad players largely win through randomness and brief periods of not sucking as much as the other team.[/QUOTE]
You can sugar coat it however you want but by your definition, dota is not a balanced game as you claim because only a handful of heroes see competitive play.
The enemy team pauses: Nobody ever dares to unpause, everyone waits and is polite
My team pauses:
"HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S COMING BACK?"
"YOU HAVE 30 SECONDS DUDE!"
and if it's not an impatient BR on the enemy team it's that american teenager who is all smug about getting a few kills from your BR teammates
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37238651]Ghost scepter prevents him from ever doing anything to you without some form of castable disable item like an abyssal.[/quote]
So you need to dedicate 2200 gold to protect yourself from him from 4 seconds while not being able to attack yourself. If his ult wasn't 18 seconds long this might be more relevant. Besides, that applies to every physical DPS heroin the game.
[QUOTE]He has no built in mobility besides his ultimate, which doesn't give him magic immunity, resistance, or a blink.[/QUOTE]
Except A) the anti-slow straight up renders a huge number of common gankers useless against him (ex: venomancer, crystal maiden) and when combined with the huge movement speed boost means you need several stun-heavy heroes to take him down. Nobody is saying he's invincible but he has a really really easy time escaping or initiating on a level comparable with Anti-Mage.
Also he can farm up a BKB with ridiculous ease.
[QUOTE]He has no built in snare or disable of any kind.[/QUOTE]
He doesn't need one as much as some heroes due to the nearly 50% uptime on his max movespeed buff, and again it is very very easy for him to farm up a basher or something similar to gain those disables.
[quote]He must maintain a considerable gold lead to maintain his relevance in team fights compared to many of the 'conventional hard carries'.[/QUOTE]
But, yet again, this is not a weakness because his entire skillset lends him to being able to farm up massive amounts of gold in a short space of time. It is not difficult for a lycan to maintain a gold lead.
[QUOTE=Tokagero;37238500]Actually, I like how someone described Lycan before. Not sure who though.
Lycan is essentially big angry creep. He has no form of affecting enemy, other than damaging them.
He can summon wolves, for scouting, but mainly for damage.
He can increase his/allies/minion damage.
His passive effectively increases his damage.
His ultimate gives him MS, some health and mostly damage/chance to do damage.
Nothing else, no utility whatsoever.
Anti-Mage has mini-stun, manaburn and blink. Faceless void has bash, blink, dodge and AoE disable. Naga Siren has snare, - armor aoe nuke, pause button and illusions, etc.
Lycan has only damage, a lot of it, but only damage.[/QUOTE]
This is what they were thinking when they added Lycan, but the problem is that he does SO MUCH damage and he has a lot of health to boot.
They're fixing this by reducing his armor. There, problem solved, he no longer can't be killed. He deals lots of damage if you don't watch your ass, but he's essentially fragile.
[QUOTE=Maruhai;37238782]Oh my god I just realised how to win against Lycan !
PREVENT HIM TO DO DAMAGE.
It was so simple.[/QUOTE]
5 ghost scepters
:v:
It seems like every 3 games of playing Dota, at the end of the game my Steam blows out. I'm not the only one getting this either. It keeps happening to me in parties.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37239307]You can sugar coat it however you want but by your definition, dota is not a balanced game as you claim because only a handful of heroes see competitive play.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I'd say the game as a whole is unbalanced. The vast majority of heroes are good in different situations or against different line-ups and other than a few brokenly good/brokenly bad heroes there's nobody I would say is [I]really[/I] out of line.
[QUOTE=aydin690;37239307]You can sugar coat it however you want but by your definition, dota is not a balanced game as you claim because only a handful of heroes see competitive play.[/QUOTE]
Define a handful. I've seen just about everything picked under some situations. I'd say two thirds of the pool sees enough play to be considered fine.
The majority of top pick/bans are heroes that fit into multiple lineups. If you first pick profit, windrunner, and enigma, you already have a support that works in all stages of the game, three possible mech/pipe/medalion carriers, three hex carriers, two possible semi carries, three possible offlaners, three possible midlaners, two possible junglers, and three heroes that have moderate to strong push, counter push, and a multitude of disables.
Those heroes aren't necessarily overpowered, but they fit into ANY lineup. With a starting draft like that, your enemy cannot know what you are going to pick next, and even if they ban something specific, you can modify your strategy, and subsequent picks, to work against anything they might chose to pick later in the draft.
Unorthodox shit like 5 man party raids happens all the time in big tournaments. Ever seen abbadon axe dazzle + 2? Those aren't picked at all frequently, but they have their niche. Lycan works with effectively anything because he can jungle or lane. That too, is why teams don't like facing him.
There are underpowered heroes like alchemist, and there are a lot of metagame dependent heroes like spectre, phantom lancer, pugna, axe, dazzle, etc. The former is a problem. The latter is what makes this game superior to League of Legends where you get banned for violating the metagame. Even if they don't get used much, their presence allows for some extremely unorthodox games, and that keeps things fun to play, and just as importantly, fun to watch.
has dagon always worked with tinker's ultimate?
[QUOTE=l l;37239711]has dagon always worked with tinker's ultimate?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's why he's one of the few heroes it's good on because it turns him into a ridiculously nasty ganker.
are people in this thread honestly arguing that lycan is balanced
is there a gas leak in here or something
[QUOTE=l l;37239711]has dagon always worked with tinker's ultimate?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
Back in the day bkb worked with it too. The horror.
I play often against Lycan and with/as a Lycan, but I've never seen issue with him being too strong.
His jungle can be screwed up in multitude of ways. Good warding (i.e. not obvious spots that block camps), aggresive jungling, global ganks (wisp/prophet, etc).
Roshan can be contested early if you are afraid of him doing that, or just get inside-unit, like treant, dominated creep, anything. Wards help too.
In teamfights you need priority of disables/items like ghost scepter/force staff, until he gets BKB, then you need to bait it out/use BKB piercing abilities.
There are ways. Lycan is annoying to deal with, but so is Prophet, so is Chen early, so is Tinker, so is Silencer if you happen to have expensive spells early on, so is Leshrac laning with stunner, so is Vengeful Spirit when you play Enigma, and so forth and so on.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37239836]are people in this thread honestly arguing that lycan is balanced
is there a gas leak in here or something[/QUOTE]
Oh boy here we go again.
God damnit tokagero, that's like the 4th automerge this week. :v:
People here love to argue that Alchemist is secretly [I]really good[/I] too. I guess holding contrarian opinions is just a thing people love to do!
3 pages of saying Lycan is OP.
Earlier today I randomed Lycan, then my friend went Wisp.
There were no survivors.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37239868]Oh boy here we go again.
God damnit tokagero, that's like the 4th automerge this week. :v:[/QUOTE]
no there is no here we go again
lycan is overpowered and that is it, if you choose not to believe this go for it but it won't stop it from being the truth
the end
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