[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37257727]hey guys I could link you to several games of lycan getting destroyed
but i won't
because...it wouldn't prove anything!!!!
?????
can you people please start linking these games where these lycans are getting dominated, because you keep talking about them
also yeah you would be retarded for linking to that because there was a massive disparity in skill as you just said
I wasn't using that single game to prove that lycan is op, I'm using that game as a perfect example of what happens in almost every game lycan is in.
also nobody is arguing that he's an automatic win, you're missing the point
the point is that lycan is, in the current meta, one of the best heroes in the game by absolute miles, and we consider him to be too good compared to other heroes[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://dota-academy.com/herolist/[/URL]
A 57% win ratio is ahead of the curve, but it isn't disgusting levels of broken. Generally you'd want win rates to be in the 45-55% range across the board, but 40-60% isn't game breaking. Fun fact. Lycans win rate with 'dire roshan advantage' is 49% with this data.
There are some interesting anomalies with this data, like how jugg manages to crush with a 65% rate. Many of these you can attribute to surprise last picks that result in a very uneven draft. (Jug being 4th or 5th pick frequently would tend to fit this description.)
There's also some flaws with this data, including which teams are considered, and as I recall this data goes back in time quite a ways, which means that raw has been picked/banned counts aren't necessarily reflective of current play, but that doesn't impact the win rates very much for old heroes, and has no bearing on more recent additions. Also, as usual, you need to essentially ignore the heroes with almost no picks, because there simply aren't enough points to have any statistical significance. PA has a 60% win rate with 5 games as I recall, but that could be flukes either way if you don't take external information into account.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37258365][URL]http://dota-academy.com/herolist/[/URL]
A 57% win ratio is ahead of the curve, but it isn't disgusting levels of broken. Generally you'd want win rates to be in the 45-55% range across the board, but 40-60% isn't game breaking. Fun fact. Lycans win rate with 'dire roshan advantage' is 49% with this data.
There are some interesting anomalies with this data, like how jugg manages to crush with a 65% rate. Many of these you can attribute to surprise last picks that result in a very uneven draft. (Jug being 4th or 5th pick frequently would tend to fit this description.)
There's also some flaws with this data, including which teams are considered, and as I recall this data goes back in time quite a ways, which means that raw has been picked/banned counts aren't necessarily reflective of current play, but that doesn't impact the win rates very much for old heroes, and has no bearing on more recent additions.[/QUOTE]
so presumably those stats go back further than lycan's addition to the game?
and yet lycan still has the most bans of any hero in the game, even more than dark seer, and is in the top 10 for avg wins, a top 10 that is hugely distorted by heroes such as jugg, phantom, wisp and ogre who have very few games at all.
you have to ask yourself, why is he the most banned hero in the game.
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;37257012]New GTTV tomorrow with Valve - Watch a sneak peek with Gabe Newell discussing his strategy for DOTA2:
[url]http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/ghxnjq/gt-tv-gabe-newell-s-dota-2-strategies[/url][/QUOTE]
Oh god, that awkward ending. This gigantic faggot having no clue what he's talking about and Gabe
looking at the floor trying to end this as quick as possible.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37258585]so presumably those stats go back further than lycan's addition to the game?
and yet lycan still has the most bans of any hero in the game, even more than dark seer, and is in the top 10 for avg wins, a top 10 that is hugely distorted by heroes such as jugg, phantom, wisp and ogre who have very few games at all.
you have to ask yourself, why is he the most banned hero in the game.[/QUOTE]
I've already addressed that several times.
Bans do not necessarily correlate to a heroes brokenness. See [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1202016&p=37239676&viewfull=1#post37239676]this[/url].
Lycan fits into any lineup because of his ability to fit into most laning situations, or jungle. He shuts down some strategies. Many lineups can deal with him adequately, as his win rate clearly shows, but most teams don't want to be FORCED to play those lineups and playstyles. That's why he is banned. If you are already planning on a lineup that can deal with him, he frequently slips through, and lo and behold, he doesn't absolutely dominate.
It's part of the same reason dark seer is almost universally banned. It's the same reason Chen and Enchantress are at the tops of the ban lists. It's the same reason natures profit gets removed constantly. They all hard counter some lineups and playtyles. This is WHY bans exist. They allow you to remove things that YOU do not want to fight, regardless of the reasons.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;37259409]I've already addressed that several times.
Bans do not necessarily correlate to a heroes brokenness. See [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1202016&p=37239676&viewfull=1#post37239676"]this[/URL].
Lycan fits into any lineup because of his ability to fit into most laning situations, or jungle. He shuts down some strategies. Many lineups can deal with him adequately, as his win rate clearly shows, but most teams don't want to be FORCED to play those lineups and playstyles. That's why he is banned. If you are already planning on a lineup that can deal with him, he frequently slips through, and lo and behold, he doesn't absolutely dominate.
It's part of the same reason dark seer is almost universally banned. It's the same reason Chen and Enchantress are at the tops of the ban lists. It's the same reason natures profit gets removed constantly. They all hard counter some lineups and playtyles. This is WHY bans exist. They allow you to remove things that YOU do not want to fight, regardless of the reasons.[/QUOTE]
I think the elephant in the room you don't want to admit is that lycan is far better at forcing certain lineups than others.
He doesn't 'frequently slip through', lycan has been banned in 76% of the games played since he was put in the game.
To say that it's not him being broken, it's just that teams don't want to fight him I think is to admit that there is a problem, not to deflect the claim. If many lineups can deal with him, he wouldn't have a 76% ban rate. If in 76% of matches, teams aren't willing to face him, there is a problem. If he is better than other heroes because he fits into so many lineups, there is a problem.
To compare his stats to dark seer and chen is also to admit the problem, as both of also considered to be outrageously powerful heroes, dark seer pre-nerf being one of the most ridiculous things in the game.
dark seer hasn't even gotten close to the number of bans that lycan has since he was added, neither does prophet.
the fact that the game has obviously more powerful heroes is certainly a bad thing, it's not something that we should just accept, it's something that should be fixed, otherwise the game gets stale. And when you are saying stuff like 'well he's balanced against chen and windrunner and dark seer', it leads to a hugely shitty tier balanced game because you aren't balancing the heroes against all the others, you're balancing them against the same tier.
lycan is almost banned in 10 games for every 1 that he actually gets played in
that's fucking shocking.
0 WIN ALMCHEMIST ON MY TEAM OH GOD LOW PRIORITY YOU CARD
LMAO
Nightstalker is fun as fuck.
They had an alchemist who kept blowing himself up ;)
[QUOTE=BloodYScar;37258935]Oh god, that awkward ending. This gigantic faggot having no clue what he's talking about and Gabe
looking at the floor trying to end this as quick as possible.[/QUOTE]
actually geoff and gabe are really good friends
[QUOTE=Meatpuppet;37259979]actually geoff and gabe are really good friends[/QUOTE]
thanks meatpuppet I was actually wondering if they had ever met before and had any relationship, good to see they're friends
regardless I thought gabe didn't know him due to "Have you even played dota 2?"
About that Riki vs Lycan earlier [IMG]http://horobox.reager.org/u/MadHatterJon_1343106195.jpg[/IMG]
Reposting this image, Lycan doesnt need a Wolf form nerf he needs a nerf with his push its just too strong.
I may be late, but apparently there are some jinx shirts promos for dota?
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[url=http://cdr.thebronasium.com/app/218576]Dota 2 - Donkey and wizard shirt Jinx[/url]
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[url=http://cdr.thebronasium.com/app/218571]Dota 2 - Axe Shirt[/url]
[QUOTE=SmashJonXD;37260551]About that Riki vs Lycan earlier [IMG]http://horobox.reager.org/u/MadHatterJon_1343106195.jpg[/IMG]
Reposting this image, Lycan doesnt need a Wolf form nerf he needs a nerf with his push its just too strong.[/QUOTE]
how does riki have 480 gpm and no items
[editline]16th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=l l;37260050]thanks meatpuppet I was actually wondering if they had ever met before and had any relationship, good to see they're friends
regardless I thought gabe didn't know him due to "Have you even played dota 2?"[/QUOTE]
you're welcome
[QUOTE=SmashJonXD;37260551]About that Riki vs Lycan earlier [IMG]http://horobox.reager.org/u/MadHatterJon_1343106195.jpg[/IMG]
Reposting this image, Lycan doesnt need a Wolf form nerf he needs a nerf with his push its just too strong.[/QUOTE]
This is a terrible image and you should feel bad for posting it.
[QUOTE=SmashJonXD;37260551]About that Riki vs Lycan earlier [IMG]http://horobox.reager.org/u/MadHatterJon_1343106195.jpg[/IMG]
Reposting this image, Lycan doesnt need a Wolf form nerf he needs a nerf with his push its just too strong.[/QUOTE]
Riki has no items so
[QUOTE=SmashJonXD;37260551]About that Riki vs Lycan earlier [IMG]http://horobox.reager.org/u/MadHatterJon_1343106195.jpg[/IMG]
Reposting this image, Lycan doesnt need a Wolf form nerf he needs a nerf with his push its just too strong.[/QUOTE]
yo this is a really bad way to back up your argument, i'm sorry
[QUOTE=Meatpuppet;37260756]you're welcome[/QUOTE]
thanks again
I always remember watching the show with geoff when I was a little and being like "I wonder if he is friends with Gabe Newell" and now I know
Does anyone remember how to make lycan a giant?
[QUOTE=titopei;37261466]Does anyone remember how to make lycan a giant?[/QUOTE]
what kind of giant
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37259778]I think the elephant in the room you don't want to admit is that lycan is far better at forcing certain lineups than others.
He doesn't 'frequently slip through', lycan has been banned in 76% of the games played since he was put in the game.
To say that it's not him being broken, it's just that teams don't want to fight him I think is to admit that there is a problem, not to deflect the claim. If many lineups can deal with him, he wouldn't have a 76% ban rate. If in 76% of matches, teams aren't willing to face him, there is a problem. If he is better than other heroes because he fits into so many lineups, there is a problem.
To compare his stats to dark seer and chen is also to admit the problem, as both of also considered to be outrageously powerful heroes, dark seer pre-nerf being one of the most ridiculous things in the game.
dark seer hasn't even gotten close to the number of bans that lycan has since he was added, neither does prophet.
the fact that the game has obviously more powerful heroes is certainly a bad thing, it's not something that we should just accept, it's something that should be fixed, otherwise the game gets stale. And when you are saying stuff like 'well he's balanced against chen and windrunner and dark seer', it leads to a hugely shitty tier balanced game because you aren't balancing the heroes against all the others, you're balancing them against the same tier.
lycan is almost banned in 10 games for every 1 that he actually gets played in
that's fucking shocking.[/QUOTE]
Once again, much of this comes down to the metagame. Lycan is [I]the[/I] embodiment of the push meta. In the matches that I've seen, lycan has been allowed in more now that kotl is in the pool (I freely admit that I haven't actually researched that specific point, just an anecdotal observation). I would expect that to continue once heroes like pitlord, warchief, and medusa who shit on waves are ported. In pitlords case, he has insane global presence, and expulsion flat out evaporates a push in a manner that makes kotl green with envy.
If this conversation were taking place around January, you could have subbed anti mage in place of lycan, and 90% of what has been said would be the same. Look where anti mage is now.
My point remains that in the games that Lycan is picked in, his win rates are on the edge of what is and is not acceptable. If he needs a nerf, it's an exceedingly minor one. You cannot achieve 50% balance with everything. The sheer complexity of the game combined with the extremely large variance in skill and preferences between the players, as well as enormous amount of overlap for many roles makes it effectively impossible.
His winrate, and his ban count are two separate things. They are related, but they are not synonymous. If you want to reduce his ban rate, he needs to be forced into a much narrower role, which would ironically probably require him to become better at that role, whatever it is, than he currently is if you want him picked at all. As has been said already, he is very universal.
[editline]15th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=titopei;37261466]Does anyone remember how to make lycan a giant?[/QUOTE]
Wasn't there some dumb thing involving rubick spell stealing the wolf form and then having bloodlust + bkb applied, or maybe it was just WTF mode spamming his ultimate.
Can't recall offhand.
[QUOTE=SmashJonXD;37260551]About that Riki vs Lycan earlier [IMG]http://horobox.reager.org/u/MadHatterJon_1343106195.jpg[/IMG]
Reposting this image, Lycan doesnt need a Wolf form nerf he needs a nerf with his push its just too strong.[/QUOTE]
Lol what a Riki, that player's name translates to "hangover session"
[QUOTE=l l;37261508]what kind of giant[/QUOTE]
physical growth like clifford the big red dog
Dota 2 just updated adding 50 community items in.
[QUOTE=Sharc;37262230]Dota 2 just updated adding 50 community items in.[/QUOTE]
sigh I wonder how many of them are just models of items already in game and require no creativity
Patch Notes.
[quote]GAMEPLAY:
- Fixed Captain's Mode Level 1 & 2 penalties reducing a bit more time than intended.
- Silencer: Fixed Invoke proccing Last Word.
- Juggernaut: Fixed a bug that was causing the first tick of Healing Ward to always heal the Radiant team.
- Tiny: Fixed Toss disabling allied Blink Daggers.
- Huskar: Fixed Life Break not hurting Huskar if he jumped on a magic immune unit.
- Outworld Destroyer: Fixed Essence Aura not proccing on items.
UI:
- Save/Load system for private games is back online.
- Clicking on a hero portrait in the stats dropdown now queries that hero.
- Added stat dropdown category "net worth", the value of non-consumable items in their inventory and their current gold.
- Fixed world lines not being drawn properly when networked to other clients.
- Fixed Hero card movies not working if the hero selection was made while you had the dashboard up.
- Fixed the timeline being broken if you jumped back to the picking stage while viewing the Vs animation.
- Fixed Silenced state getting stuck on in the hud.
- When spectator fog of war hotkeys are pressed, the UI now updates to match.
STORE:
- Added over 50 new items from the community. [/quote]
[QUOTE]- Silencer: Fixed Invoke proccing Last Word.[/QUOTE]
that's dumb
Sorry, Dota, but TF2's MvM has priority.
Go ahead and rate this dumb, I feed off of boxes.
[b]50[/b] New Items? Wow.
[QUOTE=Amaurus;37262292]Patch Notes.[/QUOTE]
FUCK FUCK FUCK.
Did not expect. My internet is getting screwed sideways today.
Cowboy Ursa came back.
So did the sword for Axe.
Lots of Ursa items actually.
[QUOTE=titopei;37261466]Does anyone remember how to make lycan a giant?[/QUOTE]
get rubick to steal undyings strength sap, steal it from heroes until he gets massive, steal wolf form from lycan
at least thats how I remember
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