you can always exclude the possibility of [b]yourself[/b] being a troll. So 4/5 players on your team can be a troll and 5/5 players on the enemy team can be a troll.
My 11 year old brother has no problems grasping this concept, maybe league isn't the right game for you.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575232]How does that even work.
He said theres only a 44% of the troll coming on your team. That makes 0 sense, as the 5 people on the other team will have the same chance of getting a troll aswell.
That's just stat stuffing to try and make it look like the chances aren't equal.
And all that other BS. ELO hell doesn't exist, but I can see why people get stuck.
Take my initial seeding matches, I carried 4 and then got 3 disconnects in the next 6, meaning 3 free losses, 1 win, and 2 fair losses.
I didn't deserve those 3 free losses, but my elo claims I did because I lost.[/QUOTE]
the 44% is only an assumption, it's based on two things:
1) There will only be one troll in every game
2) [b]THE PROBLEM ISN'T YOU[/b]
so, if its not you, then you're not the troll, so theres now a 4/9 chance of it being on your team rather than 50/50. On the other hand, for the enemy team, there's now a 5/9 chance that they get the troll.
If another person did this (say, one on the enemy team to you), and they knew that they weren't a troll, yes it would become 4/9 for their own team and 5/9 for the other team [i]because they don't know that you're not a troll[/i]. Individually, unless you're with a duo partner, and provided you're not the problem, its safe to assume that the troll will be on the enemy team more than yours.
Also, if the troll is on your team, it appears more prominent since you'll be the one losing rather than you just picking up an easy win and hopping back into queue.
and one last thing - this is not a 100% true every-game-ever thing. You won't win more games than you lose because of this 44/56 chance. Some people will get unlucky and have a troll more often than not.
honestly, it shouldn't end up making that much of a difference as it only measures the chance of a troll being on either team. It doesn't take into account anything that could affect a games outcome that isn't a troll, like counterpicking, mistakes, lane matchups, baron steals etc.
Heck, you could argue that since blue wins more often than purple team, you should statistically lose more often as purple and win more often as blue.
He's merely pointing out that in a perfect, hypothetical scenario, you should win more games than losses [i]if there's a troll every game[/i]
If you're good, there are 4 slots on your team for bad players and 5 on theirs.
What's not to get? No wall of text needed
[QUOTE=Katsuie;38575634]If you're good, there are 4 slots on your team for bad players and 5 on theirs.
What's not to get? No wall of text needed[/QUOTE]
basically this
My opinion on elo hell is
yes it does exist
[B]BUT[/B] (don't rate me dumb yet)
It's not "gg I can't get out omg team so bad"
It exists around 1200 elo because of the additional noise of being the placement elo. You have a higher chance of getting a stacked team [B]HOWEVER[/B]
If you truly deserve more than 1200 elo, you should eventually get out. This may take more than 100 games if you're really not that great or you have bad luck. High elo players should have no problem getting out because 1200 is way below their league. mediocre/decent players I reckon claim elo hell because their influence makes a close to unnoticeable impact on their games.
I admit back in season 1 I was a firm believer of "gg can't get out of this trash elo no matter how hard I try" because I was decent but not good. I looked back at my season 1 stats and my god. I had like 40 CS as Swain by 20+ minutes. My scores were never bad, but I never carried. Eventually I hauled my ass out of 980 to 1250 thanks to duo queuing and actually being better than 980 players but it took me 200 games to achieve it.
In short, I believe elo hell is considered to be around 1200-1100 elo due to the noise of placement elo. However good players will eventually get out, but it may take a long time depending on person to person.
[QUOTE=Katsuie;38575634]If you're good, there are 4 slots on your team for bad players and 5 on theirs.
What's not to get? No wall of text needed[/QUOTE]
I'm not disputing that.
The issue is with the 9 other players. They could all be bad, or all be amazing. Statistically if you are good (and hey you could be the troll) you have less chance of getting a troll on your team, but whos to say you don't get 4 trolls.
Everyone faces the same formulaic approach. Everyone percieves that they have a 44% chance to not get a troll on their team, but that doesn't work if everyone has those odds.
Pretty much what Papaya said.
Stats are stats, but when it comes to games anything can happen.
You could get a guy who is actually really good who consistently gets 0 luck and gets 4 bads on his team every time. What would ELO do then? It would punish him. That's the only point i'm trying to state.
The guy who made the video is like "oh well if you aren't a troll then you've got better chances of winning because the other team has more chance to get a troll, BUT, the guy on the other team does the same as you, and says, "well i'm not a troll, the other team has a higher chance of getting the troll compared to my team".
It's completely circular.
[QUOTE=WTF Nuke;38575441]I don't see how you can disagree with[B] math[/B]. Say there's a feeder in each ranked game. Those odds mean that 1/9 players (not counting you) could be a feeder. You have 4 additional people on your team, so your odds are 1/9*4 = 44.4%. They have the odds of 1/9*5, so 55.5%.[/QUOTE]
There's your problem. I'm not disputing the math, but disputing it's significance and power to explain trolls and "ELO Hell".
[QUOTE=OldFusion;38575593]you can always the possibility of [b]yourself[/b] being a troll. So 4/5 players on your team can be a troll and 5/5 players on the enemy team can be a troll.
My 11 year old brother has no problems grasping this concept, maybe league isn't the right game for you.[/QUOTE]
But bads often don't claim they are bad. hence the whole "i cant carry this nub team OMG U GUYS SUX"
Jesus why doesn't league ask you where you want to install? It asks where you want to download, but not install. If I want to change the directory, can I simply cut and paste the files, or are there registry values associated with league?
[QUOTE=Flip pl;38574687]theres still one serious problem
you cant carry as support 99% of the time[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/1tLZn[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/1tLZI[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/1tM0B[/IMG]
yes you can??
I started at the default 1200 ELO, without an improved ELO from last season.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575691]Words[/QUOTE]
I think you are just blaming your teammates too much.
[QUOTE=MrFlashcat;38575729][IMG]http://puu.sh/1tLZn[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/1tLZI[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/1tM0B[/IMG]
yes you can??
[/QUOTE]
Nicely done.
I think on the whole it is much harder to climb as a support because you can carry somewhat, but often rely on the other players to take kills you serve up.
Not saying it can't be done, but i'm confident that most people who get up to the high elo brackets as supports rely alot more on the team to get things done for them.
I started at the default 1200 ELO, without an improved ELO from last season.
[QUOTE=WTF Nuke;38575743]I think you are just blaming your teammates too much.[/QUOTE]
Are you reading what I'm writing or just guessing? I've not mentioned anything in particular about any experience of mine. I simply stated in my seeding matches I lost 3 matches because we had DC's, we lost some fairly, and won some fairly.
I'm more certain you can't comprehend what I'm actually getting at and are trying to backpedal out with the "lol u r bad".
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575691]
You could get a guy who is actually really good who consistently gets 0 luck and gets 4 bads on his team every time. What would ELO do then? It would punish him. That's the only point i'm trying to state.[/QUOTE]
and there will always be anomalies or people who are unlucky.
The system works for most other people, and for every chance that you will get four baddies consistently and plummet to 200 elo, there's a chance that you'll consistently get four goodies and be carried to 2k elo
the main point of that math was pointing out how bullshit the "but there's always trolls!!!" argument is.
the video also contains other points like the fact that if you're not playing to improve then you won't improve, and the point that if you do well then you'll probably win more often. If you're consistently doing badly at your current elo, maybe thats not your true elo.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/OV0q5.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=papaya;38575748]and there will always be anomalies or people who are unlucky.
The system works for most other people, and for every chance that you will get four baddies consistently and plummet to 200 elo, there's a chance that you'll consistently get four goodies and be carried to 2k elo
the main point of that math was pointing out how bullshit the "but there's always trolls!!!" argument is.
the video also contains other points like the fact that if you're not playing to improve then you won't improve, and the point that if you do well then you'll probably win more often. If you're consistently doing badly at your current elo, maybe thats not your true elo.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I'm actually agreeing with the guys rating me dumb, ELO hell doesn't exist. If you are better than your peers eventually you will rise, more often than not.
What I fundamentally disagree on is the logic of that trolls statement he made. Its flawed.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575745]Nicely done.
I think on the whole it is much harder to climb as a support because you can carry somewhat, but often rely on the other players to take kills you serve up.
Not saying it can't be done, but i'm confident that most people who get up to the high elo brackets as supports rely alot more on the team to get things done for them.
I started at the default 1200 ELO, without an improved ELO from last season.
[/QUOTE]
Not saying I'm a pro player or anything, but a good support CAN actually carry games, he gets his botlane fed.
Everyone will just say "wow that ezreal is fed" while it's actually thanks to a good support he got all those kills.
Warding stuff like Baron, Dragon and ganking paths can also carry your team to victory. They have knowledge on where the enemy is. If they don't use the information I'm willing to provide them then they'll most likely won't get to a higher ELO.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575745]Are you reading what I'm writing or just guessing? I've not mentioned anything in particular about any experience of mine. I simply stated in my seeding matches I lost 3 matches because we had DC's, we lost some fairly, and won some fairly.
I'm more certain you can't comprehend what I'm actually getting at and are trying to backpedal out with the "lol u r bad".[/QUOTE]
All you are saying is that it's possible that you get 4 bads every game and lose elo because of it. Now, that is very statistically unsound, and if you do well, you can carry your team. That's what the video is saying. If you do your best, you will gain elo. And yes, you are drawing back to how you lost 3 matches because of dcs. That shouldn't be an issue, because being placed in a lower elo when you belong in a higher one is easy to get out of, because, as mentioned before, you can carry yourself.
more often than not, the people complaining about elo hell have actually just hit their elo barrier, and are now in their true elo. There are cases where people are stuck in a certain elo and can't climb out of it, but if their true elo is actually higher than where they are now, then over the course of enough games they should rise out of it.
Didn't want to mention this because I can't find the source, but I remember reading that purple side elo is higher than blue side in ranked matches because of the inherit advantages of being blue (first pick, easier dragon, double golem bot).
[QUOTE=WTF Nuke;38575868]Didn't want to mention this because I can't find the source, but I remember reading that purple side elo is higher than blue side in ranked matches because of the inherit advantages of being blue (first pick, easier dragon, double golem bot).[/QUOTE]
I remember reading this somewhere too, although it's not much. It's only like 10 or 20 ELO or something.
[QUOTE=WTF Nuke;38575441]I don't see how you can disagree with math. Say there's a feeder in each ranked game. Those odds mean that 1/9 players (not counting you) could be a feeder. You have 4 additional people on your team, so your odds are 1/9*4 = 44.4%. They have the odds of 1/9*5, so 55.5%.[/QUOTE]
It just means you have at least a 56% chance to win naturally. It just means over time you should gradually rise in elo but the amount of games this may take is variable. All it proves is that [I]eventually[/I], you'll get to higher elo.
I don't really play ranked much. Simply because its far less enjoyable than a casual game. At least when some dumb fuck goes "FIRST TIME NASUS LOL" in normals it doesn't doom the entire game to a wasted effort. There's a distinct possibility the person he's up against will suck just as much as him.
I've just had too many harrowing experiences in the mode people claim is supposed to be "SERIOUS PLAYING". That would perhaps change if I took the time to climb out of unranked ELO but I really don't have the patience. I'd rather just normal with friends.
[QUOTE=ashxu;38575898]It just means you have at least a 56% chance to win naturally. It just means over time you should gradually rise in elo but the amount of games this may take is variable. All it proves is that [I]eventually[/I], you'll get to higher elo.[/QUOTE]
Unless you are the bad player.
[QUOTE=piggycan99;38573959]oh i've always gone, cutlass into gunblade then phage and build triforce[/QUOTE]
can't stop watching your avatar
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575952]Unless you are the bad player.[/QUOTE]
Uh the video was made for people who believe that they are stuck in elo hell aka they are good but their elo is bad
If they're a bad player then it's their own fault
Then again if they believe they're stuck in elo hell it's their own fault too
[editline]24th November 2012[/editline]
If you go into games thinking that you have a 50% chance to be shit then lol good luck with that
Well let's assume you're a decent but not good player. You don't carry very much but you usually don't throw the game or feed. Worst case scenario you lose all 10 of your placement matches. According to statistics, you should then lose 34 games and win 56. This is with a sample size of 100. So after 100 games you should be roughly around 1250 again. So you just spent 100 games getting to where you were before. To the person that had to sit through those 100 games, it would of felt like a grueling process as progress was little however they eventually did get back to where they started.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575232]How does that even work.
He said theres only a 44% of the troll coming on your team. That makes 0 sense, as the 5 people on the other team will have the same chance of getting a troll aswell.
That's just stat stuffing to try and make it look like the chances aren't equal.
And all that other BS. ELO hell doesn't exist, but I can see why people get stuck.
Take my initial seeding matches, I carried 4 and then got 3 disconnects in the next 6, meaning 3 free losses, 1 win, and 2 fair losses.
I didn't deserve those 3 free losses, but my elo claims I did because I lost.[/QUOTE]
so this is what you're saying:
enemy team has a d/c: GG I CARRIED HARD
your team has a d/c: BG YOU GUYS HAD FREE WIN
[editline]24th November 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=papaya;38575607]the 44% is only an assumption, it's based on two things:
1) There will only be one troll in every game
2) [b]THE PROBLEM ISN'T YOU[/b]
so, if its not you, then you're not the troll, so theres now a 4/9 chance of it being on your team rather than 50/50. On the other hand, for the enemy team, there's now a 5/9 chance that they get the troll.
If another person did this (say, one on the enemy team to you), and they knew that they weren't a troll, yes it would become 4/9 for their own team and 5/9 for the other team [i]because they don't know that you're not a troll[/i]. Individually, unless you're with a duo partner, and provided you're not the problem, its safe to assume that the troll will be on the enemy team more than yours.
Also, if the troll is on your team, it appears more prominent since you'll be the one losing rather than you just picking up an easy win and hopping back into queue.
and one last thing - this is not a 100% true every-game-ever thing. You won't win more games than you lose because of this 44/56 chance. Some people will get unlucky and have a troll more often than not.
honestly, it shouldn't end up making that much of a difference as it only measures the chance of a troll being on either team. It doesn't take into account anything that could affect a games outcome that isn't a troll, like counterpicking, mistakes, lane matchups, baron steals etc.
Heck, you could argue that since blue wins more often than purple team, you should statistically lose more often as purple and win more often as blue.
He's merely pointing out that in a perfect, hypothetical scenario, you should win more games than losses [i]if there's a troll every game[/i][/QUOTE]
like me! three d/c's in my first 3 placement matches, but that didn't stop me from trying my hardest to win.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;38575952]Unless you are the bad player.[/QUOTE]
The guy in the video made the statement that assuming you are not the troll (hint) you will have a 56% to win, therefore statistically his figures are correct.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;38576023]Whenever people say you can't get higher with support I just laugh.
inb4 get carried by Katsuie
There have been games that I got the AD fed while Katsuie was busy feeding their Jax toplane[/QUOTE]
I do have to agree with this, however, you do need a decent start with Support to actually get higher, because look at where I was in Season 2 (1200-1300 ELO), and that's even with the help of you.
In this Season I just skyrocketed to a whopping 1650 top rating.
In gold ELO you can make a bigger difference in your game since more players know how to follow up an engage or specific maneuvers you're making.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mwPbM.png[/IMG]
cant win ranked anymore, there are almost always 2-3 people who just troll or are generally awful at the game, it's hell
on tuesday, i was 20-11
Playing LB against a smurf Mal, suckin dick as per usual, so after going 0/3/0 I say "brb commiting suicide" and afk the rest of the game.
[QUOTE=Feralicous;38576223][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mwPbM.png[/IMG]
cant win ranked anymore, there are almost always 2-3 people who just troll or are generally awful at the game, it's hell
on tuesday, i was 20-11[/QUOTE]
First time I saw a Moonflair Spellblade in ranked.
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