Article - PC Game Piracy Examined (Author: Koroush Ghazi - Tweak Guides) - Games

[QUOTE=johanz;19821033]Guess what, any game that requires online activation can fuck you over if that service stops working. And valve said if for some reason steam goes dead, they will release thing that allows you to play it nonsteam(not like we don't have such tools already)[/QUOTE] Supporting their customers to the very end. Shame EA would never do this.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;19821044]Supporting their customers to the very end. Shame EA would never do this.[/QUOTE] Especially how ea shut down servers of many sports games. I understand they're not the latest games, but still. If I remember right, they were what, year or two old?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;19818298]A week and a year are different time frames, a week stops very, very, very fucking little, where as a year stops a lot, but is the rarest of occurrences. How many games have gone that long? 2? Not enough to justify DRM. When a game get's cracked the day of, the day after, the week of, sales change, what? under a %? Is that really [b]worth[/b] forever inconveniencing a customer? To you, it might be, not to the fucking customer. And generally those outcries are still getting it right.[/QUOTE] Games ship the majority of their copies within the first weeks of going on sale. If a company can prevent people who really want the game from getting a free copy for even a few days or weeks, they'll gain a huge increase in legitimate buyers because only those die-hard pirates are going to wait it out.

When I saw the 90% piracy rate for World Of Goo I sat up in my fucking chair. With my morals, a sale taken away from a large corporation isn't the end of the world since they have a big advertising budget and most of the time the employees get the same flat rate pay as they normally do. When you have an independent game, you most of the time get a direct cut of the money. Sometimes the earnings you get are your source of income. I never [I][U]ever[/U][/I] pirate indie games, it makes me feel like a complete bastard. I don't even do my usual "Torrent, play for 45 minutes, stop playing and decide if I like it and if I do like it, buy it" routine I do with other games. To see that 90% of the people haven't paid for the game really grinds my gears. Seriously, [B]TWENTY FUCKING DOLLARS[/B]! That's $20 folks. $20 will give you hours of entertainment for hours on end. What a great deal! At the same time you're directly (Or in the case of Steam, indirectly) supporting the developer who put his/her blood, sweat and tears into making this thing. Fuck all of you that pirated World Of Goo, die in a apartment fire.

[QUOTE=benjgvps;19823606] Fuck all of you that pirated World Of Goo, die in a apartment fire.[/QUOTE] World of goo was a piece of shit flash game. I didn't pirate it, I bought it for 1 cent when the sale was. Though I didn't enjoy it at all.

It's also doubly horrible because they also put out that Pay Whatever You Feel It's Worth deal, which is a huge bargain, and not even the rich companies do that. [editline]12:18PM[/editline] [QUOTE=johanz;19823626]World of goo was a piece of shit flash game. I didn't pirate it, I bought it for 1 cent when the sale was. Though I didn't enjoy it at all.[/QUOTE] What was wrong with it?

[QUOTE=Wtbalife;19818033]if "read the article" is all you can say to back up your opinion then i think we are finished here. I see no reason why companies should still be using intrusive types of DRM when alternatives have been more successful[/QUOTE] Just read the article, that is the only way this topic is going beyond the arguments that every other uninformed person starts. Anyways, we are talking about the article too, not just piracy in general, so it's pretty mandatory. It's pretty obvious who has, and has not read the article. [QUOTE=PredatorKing;19819732]No, it's not because I hate consoles. I have an Xbox and a PS3 and I enjoy them both greatly and, in fact, they are my main gaming platforms until I can get a better PC. I'm rejecting the idea because it's invasive technology which most likely will not function properly and will only punish the people who buy games legitimately. And what will happen if invasive DRM hardware or software gets put to stop pirates from doing so? Instead of going out and buying the game, then buying an extra five copies for themselves like you think they will, they'll either crack it or say "Fuck this shit" and not bother with the game. I think he's getting desperate. :3:[/QUOTE] Keyword - Invasive. Right? Ok, so is the copy protection "invasive" on your PS3 and 360? I'm sure there is a way to develop it on a PC without it being invasive and hindering performance.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;19817035]And then it would be a waste of money because within a few months there would be ways around it, and anyone who is a dedicated pirate would know better than to buy that motherboard when making a new computer. It solves [b] absolutely fucking nothing[/b]. And you know god damn well they would make you pay extra for it and act like it was a crime not to have one.[/QUOTE] exactly

All I can say after reading the article is, that if DRM is for delaying cracking as long as possible, then why isn't it unilaterally removed after it is?

[QUOTE=Hostel;19823704] I'm sure there is a way to develop it on a PC without it being invasive and hindering performance.[/QUOTE] There is no successful way to do it yet. Companies will still lose money, either by piracy, or this new drm

I think Mass Effect 2 is proving the article right as of this moment, they added no DRM to the disk copy and are currently suffering from day 0 piracy. Judging by some of the torrent sites I've been looking at, well over 60,000 copies have been pirated already or to put it another way, that's 3 million dollars. And personally I've never had any trouble with any of the software DRM stuff, SecuROM has always been fast to activate, Steam is perfect as always and I actually enjoy some of the features of GFWL. I think the people in this thread saying piracy hurts the consumer really have no real grasp who the average consumer is, they certainly aren't the type of person to go onto a message-board complaining about DRM.

[QUOTE=James0890;19825903]I think Mass Effect 2 is proving the article right as of this moment, they added no DRM to the disk copy and are currently suffering from day 0 piracy. Judging by some of the torrent sites I've been looking at, well over 60,000 copies have been pirated already or to put it another way, that's 3 million dollars. [/QUOTE] I "acquired" mass effect 2 too just to find out it runs at 10fps on my system. Deleted it quick after the first mission. I will buy it when I get a better pc. Thank god I didn't buy it now.

[QUOTE=Hostel;19823704]Just read the article, that is the only way this topic is going beyond the arguments that every other uninformed person starts. Anyways, we are talking about the article too, not just piracy in general, so it's pretty mandatory. It's pretty obvious who has, and has not read the article. Keyword - Invasive. Right? Ok, so is the copy protection "invasive" on your PS3 and 360? I'm sure there is a way to develop it on a PC without it being invasive and hindering performance.[/QUOTE] No, it's not invasive on a PS3 on 360 because, again, one company makes that piece of technology, and it wouldn't function as it does now. It's invasive on a home PC because they're forcing you to have something just because THEY want you to. [editline]12:12PM[/editline] [QUOTE=James0890;19825903]I think Mass Effect 2 is proving the article right as of this moment, they added no DRM to the disk copy and are currently suffering from day 0 piracy. Judging by some of the torrent sites I've been looking at, well over 60,000 copies have been pirated already or to put it another way, that's 3 million dollars. And personally I've never had any trouble with any of the software DRM stuff, SecuROM has always been fast to activate, Steam is perfect as always and I actually enjoy some of the features of GFWL. I think the people in this thread saying piracy hurts the consumer really have no real grasp who the average consumer is, they certainly aren't the type of person to go onto a message-board complaining about DRM.[/QUOTE] And yet, it will still sell ridiculously well because it's aimed at a mostly console audience. That's where they're going to pull in money on it. Though, I do feel bad they lose so much, being the best gaming company around. I'm buying collectors edition just to make up for some of the other assholes.

[QUOTE=Hostel;19805711]Again, I would read the article if you haven't already, what you guys are saying is just old news to this guy and his article. The consoles have an intelligent piece of hardware installed with firmware that stops piracy. While some do overwrite the hardware with modified firmware, it's a real hassle to accomplish and there is a risk of permanently screwing up your console. This is the main reason why less people pirate games on the consoles. [b]This same technology should be implemented into motherboards for PCs[/b], but developers better make damn sure that they get a legitimate demo out to us, or maybe even a 6 hour trial of the full game like the indie developers of Mount & Blade did.[/QUOTE] The day this happens, is the day that PC gamers will revolt.

PC is not a gaming platform, it's universal platform. So no gaming only stuff should be added to MOTHERBOARD itself.

[QUOTE=Libertas;19824547]All I can say after reading the article is, that if DRM is for delaying cracking as long as possible, then why isn't it unilaterally removed after it is?[/QUOTE] i wonder this too

[QUOTE=James0890;19825903]I think Mass Effect 2 is proving the article right as of this moment, they added no DRM to the disk copy and are currently suffering from day 0 piracy. Judging by some of the torrent sites I've been looking at, well over 60,000 copies have been pirated already or to put it another way, that's 3 million dollars. And personally I've never had any trouble with any of the software DRM stuff, SecuROM has always been fast to activate, Steam is perfect as always and I actually enjoy some of the features of GFWL. I think the people in this thread saying piracy hurts the consumer really have no real grasp who the average consumer is, they certainly aren't the type of person to go onto a message-board complaining about DRM.[/QUOTE] I did not know about the Mass effect 2 thing. Sounds interesting and i wonder what will happen to those numbers after the game comes out. As for your opinion on DRM, while i disagree you make a fair point. The problem is that with all the different hardware and software combinations out there it becomes a problem of compatibility. This and other problems make DRM a pain for the customer, which would be no problem if there was a tool to remove it after it had done it's duty to delay piracy as much as possible. Sadly, this process is something of which most companies would not be willing to put effort into. The only reason we even see a revoke tool for activations now is because of the constant complaints and even some boycotts by players against the games that originally had these limits. DRM such as steam is good because it can still manage to do its job without overcomplicating the consumer's Experience and allowing them the liberties they should have as a video game owner.

[QUOTE=James0890;19825903]I think Mass Effect 2 is proving the article right as of this moment, they added no DRM to the disk copy and are currently suffering from day 0 piracy. Judging by some of the torrent sites I've been looking at, well over 60,000 copies have been pirated already or to put it another way, that's 3 million dollars. And personally I've never had any trouble with any of the software DRM stuff, SecuROM has always been fast to activate, Steam is perfect as always and I actually enjoy some of the features of GFWL. I think the people in this thread saying piracy hurts the consumer really have no real grasp who the average consumer is, they certainly aren't the type of person to go onto a message-board complaining about DRM.[/QUOTE] alot of what people say about drm is just bandwagon shit the only problem i have ever had with anti piracy measures was with GFWL because it couldn't connect to the internet so I could sign in. it fixed itself eventually though [editline]03:33PM[/editline] aw fuck that was supposed to merge

I would really like to read this but it's just way too long. [editline]03:38PM[/editline] [QUOTE=James0890;19825903]I think Mass Effect 2 is proving the article right as of this moment, they added no DRM to the disk copy and are currently suffering from day 0 piracy. Judging by some of the torrent sites I've been looking at, well over 60,000 copies have been pirated already or to put it another way, that's 3 million dollars. And personally I've never had any trouble with any of the software DRM stuff, SecuROM has always been fast to activate, Steam is perfect as always and I actually enjoy some of the features of GFWL. I think the people in this thread saying piracy hurts the consumer really have no real grasp who the average consumer is, they certainly aren't the type of person to go onto a message-board complaining about DRM.[/QUOTE] Please explain to me how they are losing money from pirated copies, as the people who pirated were not going to buy the game anyway. I don't see how them taking a digital copy hurts their profit. Maybe if they stole a physical copy they would lose money in the physical discs and cases, but pirating things does [b]not[/b] make the developer lose money.

[QUOTE=Wtbalife;19827181] DRM such as steam is good because it can still manage to do its job without overcomplicating the consumer's Experience and allowing them the liberties they should have as a video game owner.[/QUOTE] Resale rights would like to talk with you. That seems to be a moot point though, you all bring that up as the big conspiracy of the devs to "ruin" the secondhand market with DRM, but Steam does it as well, and yet it's like a pantheon of gods to you all.

[QUOTE=Odellus;19827305] Please explain to me how they are losing money from pirated copies, as the people who pirated were not going to buy the game anyway. I don't see how them taking a digital copy hurts their profit. Maybe if they stole a physical copy they would lose money in the physical discs and cases, but pirating things does [B]not[/B] make the developer lose money.[/QUOTE] You make a point. It will be interesting to see the numbers after its released, and if any of those who pirated it buy a legitimate copy or do not buy one at all. [editline]03:43PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Libertas;19827385] That seems to be a moot point though, you all bring that up as the big conspiracy of the devs to "ruin" the secondhand market with DRM, but Steam does it as well, and yet it's like a pantheon of gods to you all.[/QUOTE] I'm not understanding what you mean. please explain.

Woa. The article totally changed my opinion on pirating. Brb destroying my linux distros.

[QUOTE=Hostel;19815113]Don't lie to yourself and act like an impulsive PC, dare I say it, fanboy. I feel inclined to think that the only reason you are rejecting the idea is for the pure reason that it came from a console. This is nothing radical or extreme, it's just putting a tiny chip on a motherboard with firmware to stop people from attempting to install illegitimate software. I am a die hard PC gamer, I have never owned a console in my life. And again, those of you who did not read the entire article are just looking like fools, I wasn't bullshitting you when I said it covers a wide variety of things. If you just the article, we could have been beyond this old news and into something a little more interesting. I agree that they should stop with anti-piracy software like DRM, SecuROM, etc. Games are always cracked in the first day, the popular games are usually leaked days before the actual release because someone out their is attaining them from where they are waiting to be shipped.[/QUOTE] No, we're rejecting the idea because it's fucking retarded, completely impractical, and will basically kill indie games.

If it is a company I trust that'll use the money for game development, rather then fueling their huge greed for cash, I'll buy the game.

[QUOTE=Hostel;19817390]There you go, that was my point. What ever it is that makes it time consuming to condition your console to play pirated games needs to be done to a PC. I know you've stated before that this would require every Mobo from every manufacturer to put this chip on. Don't skip on the fact that it takes time. It took time for every Mobo to have PCI, AGP, PCI-E, and PCI-E 2.0 to be put on their Mobos. And in reverse, it was a big decision when to start removing the famous AGP slot. In other words, it's not nearly the first time hardware vendors and software developers had to make a joint effort in getting something to go mainstream.[/QUOTE] All those standards were put on because it made business sense to do so due to the technological advancements they all brought. What happens when this supposed chip comes into play and one manufacturer says no and continues selling their boards without, meaning they make a shit ton more than those who agree to it. And don't tell you me you think the goverment would intervene and make it law to have a anti-piracy chip on every single motherboard because think of the waste of time and production on all those motherboards destined for non gaming purposes.

[QUOTE=Skooma;19818316] I think its rep as a game that is unplayable without a boss rig is undeserved. It ran just fine on medium-high on a system that choked on crappy 360 ports and GTA4.[/QUOTE] Unfair or not, the perception that it would be impossible to run definitely affected sales. [editline]12:22AM[/editline] [QUOTE=benjgvps;19823606]When I saw the 90% piracy rate for World Of Goo I sat up in my fucking chair. With my morals, a sale taken away from a large corporation isn't the end of the world since they have a big advertising budget and most of the time the employees get the same flat rate pay as they normally do. When you have an independent game, you most of the time get a direct cut of the money. Sometimes the earnings you get are your source of income. I never [I][U]ever[/U][/I] pirate indie games, it makes me feel like a complete bastard. I don't even do my usual "Torrent, play for 45 minutes, stop playing and decide if I like it and if I do like it, buy it" routine I do with other games. To see that 90% of the people haven't paid for the game really grinds my gears. Seriously, [B]TWENTY FUCKING DOLLARS[/B]! That's $20 folks. $20 will give you hours of entertainment for hours on end. What a great deal! At the same time you're directly (Or in the case of Steam, indirectly) supporting the developer who put his/her blood, sweat and tears into making this thing. Fuck all of you that pirated World Of Goo, die in a apartment fire.[/QUOTE] Another place where the statistics aren't necessarily what they seem. I pirated it to try it out, then purchased it, so I would be counted as a person who pirated it even though i also paid for it. The game could have a 50% piracy rate even if every person purchased the game after playing a pirated version.

How to produce game on pc that sells well: 1. Make it actually good and fun to play 2. Don't use nasty DRM 3. Be a GOOD company and respect your customers If a game meets all 3 of these, it's insta buy for me, like valve games are.

[QUOTE=Hostel;19823704] Keyword - Invasive. Right? Ok, so is the copy protection "invasive" on your PS3 and 360? I'm sure there is a way to develop it on a PC without it being invasive and hindering performance.[/QUOTE] Everyone else has already said this, but [b]PCs and consoles aren't the same thing![/b] Consoles have more than just a magic chip in them to protect them from piracy, they all have dedicated operating systems that everyone has to use and such, which will never happen on PCs, for all the reasons which have already been stated in this thread.

[QUOTE=johanz;19831707]How to produce game on pc that sells well: 1. Make it actually good and fun to play 2. Don't use nasty DRM 3. Be a GOOD company and respect your customers If a game meets all 3 of these, it's insta buy for me, like valve games are.[/QUOTE] A bunch of games meet these criteria that sell poorly and are pirated, off the top of my head: Braid World of Goo STALKER GRID (PC sales specifically) Zeno Clash

[QUOTE=Wiggles;19805896]Unfortunately, Valve are in a unique situation by owning Steam, which is a huge source of income for them. Other companies aren't so lucky.[/QUOTE] Yeah, they take 30-50% or so from every purchase made on Steam. That's a lot of money.