My main issue with games nowadays and how there's almost no immersion anymore. - Games

And because Metro is essentially the brother of Stalker, I feel I've gotta mention that aswell. There are no annoying stupid markers. You're thrown right in Siderovich's bunker and the only lead you're going to get at the time is by talking to him first-hand, skip that and you're already lost at the Cordon rookie camp. You're essentially HIS supplier of information after that point. The first time I picked up an artifact, I thought "What the hell am I supposed to do with this?", which was just quickly solved by hovering the mouse over it. The game didn't tell me that "you just picked up an artifact attach it to your belt to use it hurr" as if it were a ~special item~. It's just another item like ammo or bandages, helping the player just as much as a bandage will. That said, I think that's very annoying aswell. You pick something up and immediatly you get this stupid dialog in your screen that forces you to read it by not showing any button the first 5 seconds. That kills immersion too. I've been extremely immersed in Stalker for that reason along many others, one of them including the goddamn ambiences (I thought that was a crying child at night and it flipped the shit out of me). I remember crouching all the time from the Cordon camp to the armored suit you have to get for Nimble because I was so scared, and that's just because of the ambiences. I didn't even see any mutants (other than blind dogs) along that point. Agropom almost gave me a heart attack because that one motherfucking controller was so unexpected (afaik one of the few scripted things in the game). As far as unexpectedness, or 'liveness' goes, I think the game does a good job at simulating liveness. Anything can happen anywhere at any time because of A-life, even in parts of the map the game hasn't loaded. That bandit camp you just raided and cleared is now full of bloodsuckers and shit. Clear the bloodsuckers and there's now stalkers populating the camp, setting themselves up for another bandit attack. Then again there's plenty of bullshit like this happening, where NPC's get stuck or whatever: [t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/884100108093570558/24EBD5DD2CBF6322334B2CDDC80133849C51DCB3/[/t]

While I do agree on most of that, I do think something needs to be mentioned regarding markers. I have never once been jarred out of immersion by Fallout 3/NV's markers. That may be because they're small and out of the way on the hud instead of fllashing neon signs hovering over heads, that may be because my suspension of disbelief lets me believe the pipboy is displaying it through some sort of technological wizardry, but just the same they don't break my immersion at all. You also forgot to mention the stability of the game itself. Going back to Fallout(You can tell I've been playing it heavily, can't ya? :P), every once in a while....ok, I admit, every 5-10 minutes...you encounter some sort of bug. Could be an NPC just haplessly staring into a corner instead of patrolling. Could be bad mapping. Could be an item floating four inches above the desk it's supposedly sitting on, or items moving upward because, when placed in the GECK, their collision mesh is below the colmesh of the object they're on. Things like that tend to put hairline fractures in the immersion. Most recently, I encountered a DC Super Mutant just staring into a corner. Ok, fine, if this is the only thing I've seen in three hours I can sort of buy it. V87 muties were dumb as fucking hell and would probably find watching that corner rust quite entertaining for some time. It's entirely possible one of them would miss the party of four strolling in wearing full power armor and toting enormous rifles....but not ten minutes after that I got stuck in a rubble pile. Had to use concommands to get free. That dented my immersion for a bit...it came back, sure, but it dented it just the same. I didn't find myself going "Ow! Dammit, tripped over a boulder...". I instead thought to myself "Fucking hell Bethesda, can't you morons map worth a damn? I can do better than this..." Oh, and then if you really want to skullfuck immersion in a Gamebryo game just hold two movement keys at once and go third person. Your character will fucking moonwalk diagonally. They put in an animation for strafing. But not strafe walking. NPC will often strafewalk as well, and it looks just as silly when they do it.

[QUOTE=AugustBurnsRed;39604893]I find it pretty funny that Combat Arms (the F2P shooter my broke friends play) has more MP maps than the last 3 Console/PC CoD games COMBINED. Excluding the Zombies maps, since they are gamemode-exclusive. BO1, BO2 and MW3 have 44 MP maps combined, CA has 45 by my cound. And in my opinion MANY of them are larger/more intricate/both. Step it up activision god DAMN.[/QUOTE] Except Combat Arms was released in 2008 while Black Ops 1 (the earliest out of the 3) was released in 2010. Not to mention Combat Arms maps are just in general of lower quality.

I think games immerse me most when they don't have a hud, not that I don't welcome knowing how much health I have constantly but I'd rather have a game mechanic let me figure that one out myself such as a limping leg, mangled hand or an arrow through my face and allow me to guess if I am going to be alive for much longer, if I need a map to find my way around I'd very much like to find one in game or I'll just play the same level for a few hours until I've learned it and if I'm not sure where to go next I don't want a lovely floating arrow to point me the right way I'd like a big scary monster to usher me to the exit.

[QUOTE=Chopstick;39607628]I think games immerse me most when they don't have a hud, not that I don't welcome knowing how much health I have constantly but I'd rather have a game mechanic let me figure that one out myself such as a limping leg, mangled hand or an arrow through my face and allow me to guess if I am going to be alive for much longer,[b] if I need a map to find my way around I'd very much like to find one in game or I'll just play the same level for a few hours until I've learned it [/b]and if I'm not sure where to go next I don't want a lovely floating arrow to point me the right way I'd like a big scary monster to usher me to the exit.[/QUOTE] the thing with that is that it means game devs would have to make each part of the level equally interesting to explore/full of stuff.

[QUOTE=MenteR;39599683] The beggining scene in Far Cry 3 where you have to follow a dude. Did it really need that bright yellow pointer telling the player who to follow? I mean, you're not THERE anymore. You haven't been kidnapped by these terrorists, you're just playing a game where you're kidnapped and it's telling you "uhghgh folos dis man >>>>>>>>dis man<<<<<<" like you're fucking retarded and can't figure it out by yourself. If the game tells me "follow the dude in a white shirt" I don't need a fucking pointer on the dude throughout the entire scene because the game already told me exactly what I need to do and how to perform it. [/QUOTE] This is because players ARE retards as Call Of Duty immigrants in TF2 prove. Unless you have lighthouses pointing to the objectives, they are like 2 year olds trying to climb on top a table to get their pinky. On the subject of immersion, Amnesia solved it pretty well by having the main character Daniel jot down things he needed to solve or things worthy of attention to guide the player not by telling them what to do and where to go but have them deduce "This wall is fleshy but fire won't work on it... Hey, maybe if I used the nearby chemistry lab to make a corrosive substance to pour on it and clear the way?"

[QUOTE=JakeAM;39604847]For myself at least, the biggest killer of immersion is [B]lens flare[/B]. I don't want to watch a Michael Bay film, I want to live it. Yes, i'm looking at you Battlefield 3.[/QUOTE] I hate the MASSIVE amount of bloom/random FX in Hitman Absolution, the game looks good enough already why does the level have to be completely covered in random lens flares and bloom effects Its not even an exaggeration, that game has ridiculous amounts of it Every time something like this happened it just took me out of the game completely [img_thumb]http://www.newgamenetwork.com/images/uploads/gallery/HitmanAbsolution/AbsolutionPC21.jpg[/img_thumb] [IMG]http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2012/10/hitman1.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/01031.jpg[/IMG] I really liked that game but that is just not needed Same with BF3, I like it but the huge lens flares get annoying and ruin the immersion, and explode my eyes of course

[QUOTE=Nemisis116;39608150]Same with BF3, I like it but the huge lens flares get annoying and ruin the immersion, and explode my eyes of course[/QUOTE] I have never seen so much blue and bloom before.

STALKER is the most immersive game I've played, but someone's already said that.

[QUOTE=Nemisis116;39608150][t]http://www.newgamenetwork.com/images/uploads/gallery/HitmanAbsolution/AbsolutionPC21.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] What the fuck his head is practically glowing, I don't mind a little bloom and such but when it's done to this extent it completely ruins the game. Unfortunately I don't expect anything will change soon, at least not from the larger developers.

I can't help but think things like this have become progressively worse as games have become more monetised and exploited by corporations who want to cater to the lowest common denominator for the sake of their bottom line. Back in the late 90's and early 00's, when Half Life and such were spawned, before nearly every household had a console it was more about the game and less about the sales figures. They still mattered but there was less manipulation and forced conformity from the higher levels. Now it seems like taking risks and innovating are frowned upon in favour of almost clone-like games simply because the financial backers and shareholders have more faith that they will turn them a profit. Thank you capitalism.

Metroid Prime pls. Gamecube game, one of the first games I've played and holy goddamn I got so into it. You can explore and roam around, you can scan and learn about almost anything, you can take detours wherever you want, the music was so perfect, and there were lores scattered around for you to hunt down and collect to reveal the history behind whats happened from both the good guys side and the bad guys side. The game was called a 'First Person Adventure', and I bloody loved everything about it. A good example of music is when you enter Phendrana drifts. [img_thumb]http://www.abload.de/img/gm8e01-76w7jn4.png[/img_thumb] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgAtWoPfBgQ[/media] They fit together. This game series is still my fave.

[QUOTE=Zakkin;39609330]Metroid Prime pls. Gamecube game, one of the first games I've played and holy goddamn I got so into it. You can explore and roam around, you can scan and learn about almost anything, you can take detours wherever you want, the music was so perfect, and there were lores scattered around for you to hunt down and collect to reveal the history behind whats happened from both the good guys side and the bad guys side. The game was called a 'First Person Adventure', and I bloody loved everything about it. A good example of music is when you enter Phendrana drifts. They fit together. This game series is still my fave.[/QUOTE] Phendrana was and still is amazing. Hell that whole game is. Little details like water droplets on your visor in the rain, your visor steaming up when walking through a waterfall, even the sound design.

I bought a gamecube JUST for the metroid prime games. Didn't waste a penny.

[QUOTE=A big fat ass;39602682]I think this whole issue is an overreaction. Games are being dumbed down and developed to be more accessible, but it's because the majority of people were complaining that it's too hard. I may not have complained about hard games with no direction and you may not have complained, but I can guarantee there are people who weren't able to finish Half-Life 2 because they didn't know where to go or what to do. If there's an issue at all, it's likely to blame on the game developers for listening to the feedback of those people. It's an evolution of making things easier and gaining a new audience, it has nothing to do with immersion. On the subject of games getting easier, it looks like the trend is turning back towards the frustration of the 1990's with games like Dark Souls, Max Payne 3, and Hitman: Absolution having excellent hard difficulties that are actually challenging. Maybe not Hitman: Absolution, the disguise system in that is moderately broken. I'm wondering if we can't get immersed into games anymore because we're older. I don't really have the free time to be bothered to get immersed in an old game, let alone a new one.[/QUOTE] I dunno man, I played through HL2 without any issues that I remember when I was like 10 years old. It really isn't that hard to get what you're supposed to do.

[QUOTE=Zakkin;39609330]Metroid Prime pls. Gamecube game, one of the first games I've played and holy goddamn I got so into it. You can explore and roam around, you can scan and learn about almost anything, you can take detours wherever you want, the music was so perfect, and there were lores scattered around for you to hunt down and collect to reveal the history behind whats happened from both the good guys side and the bad guys side. The game was called a 'First Person Adventure', and I bloody loved everything about it. A good example of music is when you enter Phendrana drifts.[/QUOTE] Jesus fuck how could I forget to post Metroid Prime? I was scared shitless of the dark realm in Prime 2, such a SHAME I sold it. Prime 3 is the only one I have left of the trilogy. [editline]17th February 2013[/editline] Metroid Prime is probably still the most immersive game I have ever played, up to today. Prime 2 was lonely, all the damn time. The only sentient thing around you was a hologram, like memories of a cherished, glorious empire. Torvus Bog scared the living shit out of me.

I remember times when I had to be obsessive about quick save and quick load button in case I fuck something up along the way and won't be able to do it again. Games back then were meant to be challenging and meant to make you fail, it was up to you as a player to get better at it. Right now I don't bother quick saving as much because obstacles are easy, so much hand holding it makes me sick.

You know, I [B]JUST[/B] noticed this. Let me explain a bit. I started the Mass Effect franchise very badly by starting with the second game instead of the first like all logic would suggest. After that I played ME3 but only recently I've tried ME1 and oh my god it is so much more immersive. Why? Because the game doesn't fucking bottleneckrun you through every companion quest and so forth. You're a Spectre and can do whatever the hell you want, why should someone tell you which order to do stuff in? No side quests are forced to activate, everything is a little more freeform than in the other two games. Besides, you could go into fights with your shit starting gear and die and rage. That's because you didn't use your brains and GEAR UP before heading straight into the maw of death and horrible horrible pain. I found myself much more immersed in the HUGE Normandy and planetary areas. There was text and dialogue everywhere and it felt like everything had some detailed effort put into it, making the game seem that much more like a real world. I now regret having started with ME2 because although that was [I]sweeeeeet[/I] ass good game, ME1 is IMO even nicer.

To tell the truth, the feeling of game immersion has been pretty much on-off for me recently. The last time I could remember when I really got immersed in a game was about a year ago. It was Mass Effect 3. Though some might say that it's the worst in the trilogy, it got me on the emotional parts. Like [SPOILER] Mordin dying and I've felt pretty dull on the games I've played before that. Now I've still been playing a lot of games this past year but I tell ya, the feeling really isn't there anymore. I've been relentlessly searching for new types of games. Even started playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R. COP hoping I can get that Metro 2033 feel but still can't get into it. You guys think maybe Metroid Prime is worth a shot?

oh hell yes metroid prime is worth more than five shots

Huh, really? I mean, has it really aged well by now? I just might give it a shot then. Thanks.

Dead Space (the first one) did it right by not telling you that you had to shoot the glowy bits. It did it wrong by telling you 5 times to cut off the limbs in every game. Then, by the third one, people who've played all of them are just like "Jesus, okay, I get it, can we move on". Also, it's pretty funny how, in the first one, you're not told that you can pick up objects and enemy appendages to shoot as weapons, but it doesn't even matter because of how not useful it was. Then the 2nd and 3rd suddenly decide that it's important that you know it by showing you a tutorial, but it's still useless.

[QUOTE=Appolox;39619178]I remember times when I had to be obsessive about quick save and quick load button in case I fuck something up along the way and won't be able to do it again. Games back then were meant to be challenging and meant to make you fail, it was up to you as a player to get better at it. Right now I don't bother quick saving as much because obstacles are easy, so much hand holding it makes me sick.[/QUOTE] In a thread about the lack of immersion in games, you say you want to have to constantly reload and save just to beat a level. That is not immersive. Literally the opposite

you gotta give props to that function though. makes you feel immersed coz the fear is always there. though I kind of agree with you, i remember quick saving kind of killed most of the game's immersion coz for each mistake you made, you only had to reload it and start all over again. you never really feel the weight of your decisions at one point. makes Dark Souls all the more different because of not being able to quicksave, too.

[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;39619910]Dead Space (the first one) did it right by not telling you that you had to shoot the glowy bits. It did it wrong by telling you 5 times to cut off the limbs in every game. Then, by the third one, people who've played all of them are just like "Jesus, okay, I get it, can we move on". Also, it's pretty funny how, in the first one, you're not told that you can pick up objects and enemy appendages to shoot as weapons, but it doesn't even matter because of how not useful it was. Then the 2nd and 3rd suddenly decide that it's important that you know it by showing you a tutorial, but it's still useless.[/QUOTE] I've only played DS1, but finding several notes, audio logs and graffiti in blood from the crew desperately trying to stay alive and help out other people even if the only thing they could manage with their last moment of life were the words "cut the limbs" set the tone of the game pretty fucking well, not just let you know what's going on.

I don't know what you guys think of IGN but here's the metroid prime trilogy review [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT5fZRn13Kc[/media]

Certain games still get immersion right (Dead Space, Amnesia, Metro 2033, and even Skyrim if you start disabling the quest markers and the like) but a lot of them really are a "Here's the path to take, do what the game tells you" and that's a shame. I understand why it's done (many less experienced players actually need that kind of direction to get through the game), but it's odd that they don't seem to take into account the fact that some players can figure things out by themselves. Hell, even family-friendly games like the original Spyro the Dragon trilogy didn't have much in the way of tutorials or quest markers or anything. Not that the games were particularly complex, but it was entirely up to the player to figure out the mechanics, and find all the secrets that required some fancy charging/gliding. Same goes for the old Crash Bandicoot games. As gaming has gotten bigger, many developers have stopped trusting the player to know what to do or to let them figure it out for themselves. What would be cool I think is to separate this stuff either in the options menu or when starting a new game. Experienced players can disable tutorials, quest markers, HUD, or fast-travel, while new players can let the game guide them a bit.

The one thing about games like the Metroid series (including Prime), Castlevania (I've only played the N64 version which I loved) that was how I could be playing for ages and then end up hopelessly lost. Wander around, look and pour over the maps, figure it out and then proceed. And when you figure it out you feel [i]smart[/i]. That feeling increases the immersion by a billion fold. What was great about those games was, they're not overly wordy and you can just figure out the basics of the game quickly and easily without getting messages and words jammed into your face every other moment. [editline]17th February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Cordi;39619857]Huh, really? I mean, has it really aged well by now? I just might give it a shot then. Thanks.[/QUOTE] Not meaning to sound like a fanboy or anything, they've aged very well and are damn sight better made than quite a few games made recently.

Gubbinz, that's subtle ways of teaching in work. Look at Ego's video about Megaman X and he explains that shit p. well. Basically they gave small hints about what to do so just by experimenting a wee bit you get the hang of things. Nowadays the same hints have become impassable barriers of blaring "PRESS SPACE YOU DROOLING FUCKER" popups.

[QUOTE=Hellborg 65;39610041]I bought a gamecube JUST for the metroid prime games. Didn't waste a penny.[/QUOTE] I wasn't even a nintendo fan and I went out of my way to acquire a gamecube to play the metroid prime games. They were awesome