D&D General 2e - Games - Facepunch Forum

Don't really understand the hate for different D&D systems, seems like a wasted opportunity to me. Though that might be because I don't care for keeping the games system within its binding -- I just take things from other systems/games that we like and implement them into 3.5. Why hold yourself back I say. [QUOTE=Onyx3173;38713682]There's one thing I've always disliked about 3.0 and newer D&D that I liked about AD&D. In 3.0+ magic is commonplace. In AD&D magic is something that's stupidly hard to master and is a rare and unique occurrence. Especially powerful magic. It makes encountering it just that much more unique and, to me, it seems a lot more realistic.[/QUOTE] I agree. My groups campaign has most of the magic in the hands of the powerful and dedicated, or strange; such that I've banned most of the classes that use magic from PC use (though that was primarily because we're a melee focused group that's going to epic levels, and I didn't want the Druid/Wizard/etc telling the sword guys to sod off while he saves the world -- can't be assed to balance those classes out). Fits with the lore of our world anyways, which had the majority of the magical 'chain' severed to the planarverse, thereby lessening the amount of magic that exists in all of the verse.

[QUOTE=That Ninja;38717312]So what "depth" did 4e actually lose that 3.5 has?[/QUOTE] No multiclassing and no prestige classes, boring as shit spellcasting system, feats and skills are both downplayed a little, and all the classes are very similar.

[QUOTE=elowin;38723535]No multiclassing and no prestige classes, boring as shit spellcasting system, feats and skills are both downplayed a little, and all the classes are very similar.[/QUOTE] There is a wierd form of multiclassing, the tier system substitutes for prestige classes, and the spellcasting system is much less restrictive.

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38723820]There is a wierd form of multiclassing, the tier system substitutes for prestige classes, and the spellcasting system is much less restrictive.[/QUOTE] Please don't start this.

[QUOTE=elowin;38724140]Please don't start this.[/QUOTE] Well as long as people merely voice their opinions in a civil manner and keep to the facts it shouldn't devolve into a fight. In other words roll for initiative everyone.

[QUOTE=elowin;38724140]Please don't start this.[/QUOTE] Why do you never agree with me on anything?

Just made an half-orc rogue in Pathfinder Because fuck stealth

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38723820]There is a wierd form of multiclassing, the tier system substitutes for prestige classes, and the spellcasting system is much less restrictive.[/QUOTE] Annoying, restrictive multiclassing, tier system is pretty good, and what are you smoking the magic system has you on a leash

[QUOTE=Rents;38724446]Annoying, restrictive multiclassing, tier system is pretty good, and what are you smoking the magic system has you on a leash[/QUOTE] I mean I would get all miserly if I had only X amount of spells and had to pick them in advance, but I've never played a spellcasting class in any D&D edition.

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38724386]Why do you never agree with me on anything?[/QUOTE] I agree with you on some things. [QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38724464]I mean I would get all miserly if I had only X amount of spells and had to pick them in advance, but I've never played a spellcasting class in any D&D edition.[/QUOTE] Then play a sorcerer or warlock. [QUOTE=Rents;38724446]Annoying, restrictive multiclassing, tier system is pretty good, and what are you smoking the magic system has you on a leash[/QUOTE] Fuck it, I guess i'll just jump into this discussion anyway. The "multiclassing" in 4e is not multiclassing at all, it's borrowing one shitty ability from another class, the tier system isn't bad but it does not substitute prestige classes, and yeah what the hell are you talking about with the magic system there is litterally no choice.

As I said, 4th edition is the streamlined experience. It's amazing if you just want to run something fun and not focus on mechanics so much but if you want the extra fidelity pathfinder is better. Besides, I personally love to go shopping on a huge list of feats/spells. Both systems are great in their own regards. It really depends on what kind of game you want to run and what sort of group you have.

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38724464]I mean I would get all miserly if I had only X amount of spells and had to pick them in advance, but I've never played a spellcasting class in any D&D edition.[/QUOTE] Well, the big difference is spells in 3.5e come in a tiered system, and you get more of the lower slots as you level as well as getting slots for higher leveled spells, so you not only get more powerful but you get a wider range of spells as well. This is also where the "Wizards are OP" thing comes from, since their thing is that they get lots of spells but can't cast too much and have to prepare, by the time they hit about level 15 they've got a key for every lock as long as they know what's coming.

[QUOTE=Rents;38724668]Well, the big difference is spells in 3.5e come in a tiered system, and you get more of the lower slots as you level as well as getting slots for higher leveled spells, so you not only get more powerful but you get a wider range of spells as well. This is also where the "Wizards are OP" thing comes from, since their thing is that they get lots of spells but can't cast too much and have to prepare, by the time they hit about level 15 they've got a key for every lock as long as they know what's coming.[/QUOTE] A good DM catches the wizard with his/her pants down every now and then. Fan favourites include stealing their component pouch, disarming their casting tool if they rely on such or imposing a time limit which limits their ability to prepare. As long as you don't make it obvious that you're trying to take the wizard out to give the other party members time to shine they won't complain. A cheap way to explain it is to just go "you're dressed in a robe and they know wizards are bad news so naturally they want to pick you off" if they're fighting intelligent enemies. For example if your wizard is fond of knocking things open and stealing the thunder of the rogue just give them a sturdy door with three or more locks. Unless he has multiple knocks prepared he can't pick the door. [editline]6th December 2012[/editline] Personally, if the party wizard in my current campaign stars trying to hog the spotlight too much I have an easy way of dealing with it since the campaign is centred around a faction that is trying to wipe out magic completely. A boss encounter that includes a wizard solely focusing on counterspelling everything he tries to dish ought to do the trick.

I prefer playing sorcerers because of that, you're less OP because you can't hoard esoteric spells with super specific uses. [editline]6th December 2012[/editline] Being able to cast at will is sweet, and having high charisma.

[QUOTE=Pixelnator;38724720]For example if your wizard is fond of knocking things open and stealing the thunder of the rogue just give them a sturdy door with three or more locks. Unless he has multiple knocks prepared he can't pick the door.[/QUOTE] Actually, this particular example is pretty inaccurate, seeing as knock actually unlocks all locks nearby, and this is exactly the kind of time it's actually a good idea to use it, especially if you have a time limit. However, like it's said in the description of knock, particularly complicated locks are immune to it, so instead you just do the exact opposite, and outfit the door with one complex lock, and knock becomes useless.

[QUOTE=elowin;38724940]Actually, this particular example is pretty inaccurate, seeing as knock actually unlocks all locks nearby, and this is exactly the kind of time it's actually a good idea to use it, especially if you have a time limit. However, like it's said in the description of knock, particularly complicated locks are immune to it, so instead you just do the exact opposite, and outfit the door with one complex lock, and knock becomes useless.[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/knock]Target one door, box, or chest with an area of up to 10 sq. ft./level[/url] [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/knock]If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure. This spell opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold something shut). If used to open an arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes. In all other cases, the door does not relock itself or become stuck again on its own. Knock does not raise barred gates or similar impediments (such as a portcullis), nor does it affect ropes, vines, and the like. The effect is limited by the area. Each casting can undo as many as two means of preventing access.[/url] In 3.5 it would open everything if I recall correctly so in that case you could just put doors the party wants to open right next to doors they want to avoid opening. [editline]Edit[/editline] Turns out it works the same way in 3.5 and I was thinking about NWN.

[QUOTE=Pixelnator;38725541][url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/knock]Target one door, box, or chest with an area of up to 10 sq. ft./level[/url] [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/knock]If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure. This spell opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold something shut). If used to open an arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes. In all other cases, the door does not relock itself or become stuck again on its own. Knock does not raise barred gates or similar impediments (such as a portcullis), nor does it affect ropes, vines, and the like. The effect is limited by the area. Each casting can undo as many as two means of preventing access.[/url] In 3.5 it would open everything if I recall correctly so in that case you could just put doors the party wants to open right next to doors they want to avoid opening.[/QUOTE] I was wrong and I blame Neverwinter Nights. Knock works like how I described it in Neverwinter Nights for some reason.

[QUOTE=elowin;38725592]I was wrong and I blame Neverwinter Nights. Knock works like how I described it in Neverwinter Nights for some reason.[/QUOTE] Heh. Had I not looked it up on the wiki before posting I would have made the same mistake too. Knock and Remove Traps were such useful spells in NWN. They also made rogues pointless when it came to locks and traps.

BECUASE MAKING WHOLE CHARACTER CLASSES AND PLAYER OPTIONS COMPLETELY REDUNDANT AND/OR POINTLESS IS GREAT GAME DESIGN

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38726635]BECUASE MAKING WHOLE CHARACTER CLASSES AND PLAYER OPTIONS COMPLETELY REDUNDANT AND/OR POINTLESS IS GREAT GAME DESIGN[/QUOTE] Or the DM can just disallow certain spells.

[QUOTE=Rents;38726929]Or the DM can just disallow certain spells.[/QUOTE] pls no, restricting players like that is horrible But, Pixel really was overstating it quite a bit, besides the fact that you can only use knock a couple of times per day, rogues don't just pick locks and disarm traps, in fact they are one of the best damage dealers in the game because of constant backstabs, and they can be good with a shitton of different skills at the same time. If you want to complain about a character class being nearly useless, complain about bards, rogues are certainly not useless. Besides, it's not like 4e isn't unbalanced as fuck as well.

Maybe we should all switch to Mutants & Masterminds.

[QUOTE=elowin;38726957]pls no, restricting players like that is horrible [/QUOTE] If all players agree to forbid something, what's the problem? Or DM could just make locks resistant to knock. I've never found Find Traps or Knock to be enough reason to not have a rogue though.

[QUOTE=Rents;38726929]Or the DM can just disallow certain spells.[/QUOTE] oh so it's not shitty design if you just fix it yourself? what kind of logic is that [editline]6th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;38723535]the classes are very similar.[/QUOTE] have you even played 4e, wow [editline]6th December 2012[/editline] the main problem is that it didn't go far enough to eliminate some of the terrible design decisions from previous editions that are now "sacred cows" like static alignments and restrictive ability scores

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38727168]Maybe we should all switch to Mutants & Masterminds.[/QUOTE] yes lets do this

[QUOTE=Antary;38727756]yes lets do this[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38727168]Maybe we should all switch to Mutants & Masterminds.[/QUOTE] pls no [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;38727707]have you even played 4e, wow [/QUOTE] The way each classes abilities work is always exactly the same. All abilities can either be used once per day, once per encounter, or as much as you damn well like, and all classes have all kinds of abilities in just about equal measure, which means no unique things like warlocks being able to cast their spells infinite times per day in exchange for vastly inferior spell selection, and no wizards having buttloads of spells but having to memorize them at the start of the day.

[QUOTE=elowin;38727831]pls no[/QUOTE] You must, for the greater good.

[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;38727707]oh so it's not shitty design if you just fix it yourself? what kind of logic is that[/QUOTE] Uhh, it was more like "If you don't like playing with this part, you don't have to.".

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38727843]You must, for the greater good.[/QUOTE] You mean greater evil right?

[QUOTE=elowin;38727910]You mean greater evil right?[/QUOTE] No. The greater good.