[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;38727965]No. The greater good.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, i'm chaotic neutral.
Well, shit, there should be [i]someone[/i] who wants to GM super hero ridiculousness.
[QUOTE=elowin;38727831]
The way each classes abilities work is always exactly the same.
All abilities can either be used once per day, once per encounter, or as much as you damn well like, and all classes have all kinds of abilities in just about equal measure, which means no unique things like warlocks being able to cast their spells infinite times per day in exchange for vastly inferior spell selection, and no wizards having buttloads of spells but having to memorize them at the start of the day.[/QUOTE]
And they all use d20's, why should that matter? That kind of "unique" trade off sounds great but in practice leads to classes being vastly different in how useful they are in each fight. You're a fighter? Great, you get to swing your sword at the kobold while the wizard rearranges the fabric of time and space (but only once per day, so it's totally balanced you guys (except a day is "after every fight")). Every class uses their powers in different ways, for different reasons and fulfils a different role.
[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;38728044]And they all use d20's, why should that matter? That kind of "unique" trade off sounds great but in practice leads to classes being vastly different in how useful they are in each fight. You're a fighter? Great, you get to swing your sword at the kobold while the wizard rearranges the fabric of time and space (but only once per day, so it's totally balanced you guys (except a day is "after every fight")). Every class uses their powers in different ways, for different reasons and fulfils a different role.[/QUOTE]
Once per day is not after every fight unless your GM is a dumbass who let's you rest in the middle of dangerous areas.
Fighters are not nearly as weak as people make them out to be, it's actually pretty amazing just how much people complain about wizards being OP compared to fighters and other such classes when it's really nowhere near that bad, unless your GM is a dumbass that is.
And finally, while yes, the classes do obviously fulfill different roles, that was not even my point, my point is they all feel the same because of how abilities are handled.
Really, I generally just think the classes feel like they were stripped straight out of WoW or some other MMORPG, they don't really feel [b]real[/b], they feel, well, video gameish, it's kind of hard to explain.
So you don't really have an argument other than "It [I]feels[/I] bad to me!" which is fair enough but don't use that to discourage others from playing it.
Classes don't feel the same at all unless you're looking at it from an incredibly simplistic "powers are all handled with the same format" viewpoint. They play and feel absolutely nothing like each other.
[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;38728264]So you don't really have an argument other than "It [I]feels[/I] bad to me!" which is fair enough but don't use that to discourage others from playing it.
Classes don't feel the same at all unless you're looking at it from an incredibly simplistic "powers are all handled with the same format" viewpoint. They play and feel absolutely nothing like each other.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for completely ignoring every argument other than the one thing that I put down to how it feels.
I was not ever trying to discourage others from playing it, I said around the very beginning of this shitfest that I believe 3.5/Pathfinder had more depth and 4e was more streamlined and easy to get into, which is not a bad thing or an insult.
Also, all the classes within the same "category" of classes feel pretty much the same, like all tanks feel and do mostly the same, all DPS feel mostly the same and so on.
[QUOTE=elowin;38728299]Also, all the classes within the same "category" of classes feel pretty much the same, like all tanks feel and do mostly the same, all DPS feel mostly the same and so on.[/QUOTE]
But they don't :pwn: that's why I think you either haven't played 4e much or you've just had a bunch of shitty games. Even different builds within the same class can play very differently from each other (e.g. Brawler Fighter vs. Tempest Fighter).
[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;38728350]But they don't :pwn: that's why I think you either haven't played 4e much or you've just had a bunch of shitty games. Even different builds within the same class can play very differently from each other (e.g. Brawler Fighter vs. Tempest Fighter).[/QUOTE]
They use different abilities but they use those abilities to do the exact same things.
Like in WoW.
Still saying things that are the opposite of reality here...
[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;38728378]Still saying things that are the opposite of reality here...[/QUOTE]
Opinions.
Anyway, can we please end this shitstorm now? I think it's pretty clear that us oldfags will never like 4e and you newfags will never accept that.
Hey, it's storytime!
Our Elder Scrolls campaign ended recently due to a player leaving and the others not wanting to continue that plot, which in turn led to one of my players expressing interest in DMing, an offer I gladly accepted. I was a bit worried due to his awful special snowflake Mary Sue character, but because he seemed really enthusiastic about running a game and was talking about the culture of his world and how awesome it is, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. His campaign would be based on nordic mythology seeing how he practically eats that shit up (I think he's read the Edda or something), and I was starting to be pretty excited, as were the others.
My first doubts about his stuff came when I was asking about his world to aid in creating my character (we'd taken a pause of a few weeks for him to flesh out his setting) and when I asked him about Dwarven culture and manners and whatever in his world he was pretty much stumped and resorted to flipping through a swedish dictionary and spontaneously deciding that the dwarven capital would be called Stone City (in swedish, we're finnish). Alright, so the dwarves aren't very imaginative. About a week later I got his world map with the rest of the cities. One city per race. Cities like: Son City (Humans), Wise City (Gnomes), Evil City (Half-Orcs), Lazy City (Halflings refluffed as Hobbits) and of course the ancient city called "Youngest" from which every race came from but then there was a war and a period of time called "The Age of Dragons" and something happened to spread out the races and I'm pretty sure he has no idea what it was.
Well, a pretty generic fantasy setting then. I didn't really care that much, it seemed to do the job despite being a hive of cliches. Then came the first session. He'd told us all to buy starting equipment as per the regular Pathfinder rules. We had a human fighter, a halfling rogue, an elven bard ([I]with 9 charisma seriously what the fuck, I mean I'm not a powergamer but that takes away like every single bardic ability and he doesn't even roleplay it or anything[/I]) and me as a dwarven cleric. Our intrepid DM then tells us that we are imprisoned in a dungeon with no idea how we got there and had lost all of our items. We're like "let's blow this joint" and promptly find out that our cell door is unbreakable, at least with a roll of 18. There's some satanic pentagram on the door so I bless it like a motherfucker. This however does nothing due to "strange and dark eldritch forbidden magicks". We wait around a bit until suddenly a beaten Thor arrives and is like "I've come to rescue you guys but you gotta pay me back someday" and we're like "Nah fuck that" but the DM says that he's our only chance of ever getting out.
That's the story of how we were railroaded into being indebted to a god who apparently gave a shit about level one characters. Oh, and he was also saying he was going to instantly make the character with the best backstory a level two character until I told him that was complete bullshit. Predictably, I was the only one with a backstory when the game started. He also tried creating some awful mana system for Pathfinder (I don't need to tell you how imbalanced it was) and creating a custom I-shit-you-not Witcher class.
Rest of the session was about killing dudes and that was alright.
I think I prefer being a DM, to be honest.
[QUOTE=elowin;38726957]pls no, restricting players like that is horrible
But, Pixel really was overstating it quite a bit, besides the fact that you can only use knock a couple of times per day, rogues don't just pick locks and disarm traps, in fact they are one of the best damage dealers in the game because of constant backstabs, and they can be good with a shitton of different skills at the same time.
If you want to complain about a character class being nearly useless, complain about bards, rogues are certainly not useless.
Besides, it's not like 4e isn't unbalanced as fuck as well.[/QUOTE]
It was really just the first example that popped into my mind so don't overanalyze it too much. It was meant to be more of a "here's a problem a DM might have and a possible way they could solve it" v:v:v
[QUOTE=elowin;38726957]If you want to complain about a character class being nearly useless, complain about bards, rogues are certainly not useless.[/QUOTE]
Bardic knowledge can be enough to unravel a well designed mystery at high levels. I remember awhile back reading an article on bards and basically they can know damn near anything thanks to their bardic knowledge checks.
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;38732847]Bardic knowledge can be enough to unravel a well designed mystery at high levels. I remember awhile back reading an article on bards and basically they can know damn near anything thanks to their bardic knowledge checks.[/QUOTE]
That's because knowledge skills are pretty much all they are good for. Seriously, Bard class features are a joke.
I know this isn't D&D, but I wanted to ask, anyone here familiar with the RPG Eclipse Phase? For those of you not in the know, Eclipse Phase is a transhuman conspiracy horror RPG ([URL="http://eclipsephase.com/"]here[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Phase_(role-playing_game)"]here[/URL] for info) where it's basically like Ghost in the Shell in space, meaning your mind is like software and you can download your consciousness into other bodies and stuff. Oh and we've uplifted animals. Oh and there's a show called Momo von Satan and The Cock. Did I mention this was a [I]horror[/I] transhuman space RPG? Like Dead Space?
So the party I'm in now is:
-[B]Davis[/B], an orangutan uplift who is an agent of one of the hypercorporations
-[B]Datastar[/B], an anarchist hacker whose body was a slitheroid, basically a 2-meter long segmented metallic snake with two arms (interesting to see her and the hypercorp agent interact)
-[B]Clark Westgate[/B], an American oligarch who was almost 200 years old, party face, ie me
-[B]Min[/B], a member of the "ultimate" faction who are basically supersoldier warrior-philosophers who look down on other transhumans
-And finally [B]Sapphire[/B], a survivor of Earth's destruction at the hands of rogue AIs, now a Martian Ranger
Why we're all working together is because the default assumption of Eclipse Phase is that you're part of a crossfaction conspiracy called Firewall, who basically seek out to protect what's left of the transhuman race from existential threats after rogue AIs called the TITANs kinda went all Skynet on everything and wiped out 90% of us.
If I've perked your attention at all, go download all the pdfs. Seriously they're released under the Creative Commons license, go pick 'em up. NOW. Oh and I'm more than willing to run a game if anyone's interested
I have been waiting for an Eclipse Phase game ever since I saw the .pdf. It is honestly my one answer for an atmospheric and futuristic tabletop RPG. With the right narration it can be incredibly deep and rich. I would absolutely love to play it.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;38733408]I know this isn't D&D, but I wanted to ask, anyone here familiar with the RPG Eclipse Phase? For those of you not in the know, Eclipse Phase is a transhuman conspiracy horror RPG ([URL="http://eclipsephase.com/"]here[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Phase_(role-playing_game)"]here[/URL] for info) where it's basically like Ghost in the Shell in space, meaning your mind is like software and you can download your consciousness into other bodies and stuff. Oh and we've uplifted animals. Oh and there's a show called Momo von Satan and The Cock. Did I mention this was a [I]horror[/I] transhuman space RPG? Like Dead Space?
So the party I'm in now is:
-[B]Davis[/B], an orangutan uplift who is an agent of one of the hypercorporations
-[B]Datastar[/B], an anarchist hacker whose body was a slitheroid, basically a 2-meter long segmented metallic snake with two arms (interesting to see her and the hypercorp agent interact)
-[B]Clark Westgate[/B], an American oligarch who was almost 200 years old, party face, ie me
-[B]Min[/B], a member of the "ultimate" faction who are basically supersoldier warrior-philosophers who look down on other transhumans
-And finally [B]Sapphire[/B], a survivor of Earth's destruction at the hands of rogue AIs, now a Martian Ranger
Why we're all working together is because the default assumption of Eclipse Phase is that you're part of a crossfaction conspiracy called Firewall, who basically seek out to protect what's left of the transhuman race from existential threats after rogue AIs called the TITANs kinda went all Skynet on everything and wiped out 90% of us.
If I've perked your attention at all, go download all the pdfs. Seriously they're released under the Creative Commons license, go pick 'em up. NOW. Oh and I'm more than willing to run a game if anyone's interested[/QUOTE]
Hey, it's something not D&D do I might be interested. Not bashing D&D it's just that I want to play different games.
Well fuck, first shadowrun game and the GM disappears halfway in on the second session.
[editline]7th December 2012[/editline]
Anyone know of any Shadowrun games looking for players? Have a sheet ready and everything.
[QUOTE=Tattimatonen;38729334]:words:[/QUOTE]
Oh look a DM that's somehow worse than me.
[QUOTE=Pixelnator;38731879]It was really just the first example that popped into my mind so don't overanalyze it too much. It was meant to be more of a "here's a problem a DM might have and a possible way they could solve it" v:v:v[/QUOTE]
I know, but certain people decided to take it a little to litterally and think it actually completely invalidated rogues.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;38733151]That's because knowledge skills are pretty much all they are good for. Seriously, Bard class features are a joke.[/QUOTE]
That is about all they're good for but at high levels that can basically mean that the party can skip the entire arc and go straight for the big baddy without doing the rest of the adventure. I'd be livid if I spent a ton of work only for a single roll like that to ruin it all. (If they managed to skip it through being clever however that's a different story.)
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;38739764]That is about all they're good for but at high levels that can basically mean that the party can skip the entire arc and go straight for the big baddy without doing the rest of the adventure. I'd be livid if I spent a ton of work only for a single roll like that to ruin it all. (If they managed to skip it through being clever however that's a different story.)[/QUOTE]
Hardly. Any GM who couldn't come up with a way to avoid the bard trivializing everything is a pisspoor GM. Knowledge skills only go so far, in any case- They allow you to make informed decisions, not teleport to the end of the plot.
They're checks to see if the bard knows a specific piece of knowledge or not. It can be used to get knowledge that would ruin the adventure if the DM goes exactly by the books.
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;38739951]They're checks to see if the bard knows a specific piece of knowledge or not. It can be used to get knowledge that would ruin the adventure if the DM goes exactly by the books.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Even the epic level skill checks only supply snippets of information, it's just that the higher you score, the more accurate and relevant the information you receive is.
Is anyone interested in GM'ing a Shadowrun game? Groups already got sheets and everything ready.
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;38739764]That is about all they're good for but at high levels that can basically mean that the party can skip the entire arc and go straight for the big baddy without doing the rest of the adventure. I'd be livid if I spent a ton of work only for a single roll like that to ruin it all. (If they managed to skip it through being clever however that's a different story.)[/QUOTE]
also in epic level d&d you can tell people literally anything and they will automatically believe you
you can tell a kingdom that you are their king and they will all believe you, including the real king and his family
Question about spellcasters:
Do you only choose a few spells to learn every now and then? I always assumed you could just choose from the general list. Or is that only clerics? Or how does it work? Can a wizard cast any spell of his level at any time, as long as he has prepared it, or does he have to learn it first? In which case, how many and how can he learn?
(3.5e)
[QUOTE=Codename 47;38781666]Question about spellcasters:
Do you only choose a few spells to learn every now and then? I always assumed you could just choose from the general list. Or is that only clerics? Or how does it work? Can a wizard cast any spell of his level at any time, as long as he has prepared it, or does he have to learn it first? In which case, how many and how can he learn?[/QUOTE]
What edition of the game are you playing?
I don't know if anyone has seen this but apparently they're trying to make a Pathfinder Online. [url]http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo[/url]
[QUOTE=Oliolio;38787570]What edition of the game are you playing?[/QUOTE]
3.5e :)
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