Missing Aghanim's Scepter Upgrades - Games

[QUOTE=Da_Maniac_;39412605]Apparently you don't, because necromastery is not his ult.[/QUOTE] his point is that aghanim scepter upgrade can change other skills or do other than improve the ultimate, like tiny, enchantress or night stalker

[QUOTE=Gate;39412900]his point is that aghanim scepter upgrade can change other skills or do other than improve the ultimate, like tiny, enchantress or night stalker[/QUOTE] But none of them actually change the 3 primary skills. Those three you mentioned get passive buffs apart from their abilities.

Improving Necromastery would indirectly serve to improve the damage output of Requiem of Souls due to more souls being released, subsequently increasing the possible damage output of the ability. So yeah, it'd serve as a nice, quasi-ridiculously op upgrade.

[QUOTE=Dathedi;39413423]Improving Necromastery would indirectly serve to improve the damage output of Requiem of Souls due to more souls being released, subsequently increasing the possible damage output of the ability. So yeah, it'd serve as a nice, quasi-ridiculously op upgrade.[/QUOTE] Why not just buff damage/soul that ultiamte does ? Like every soul making 1 wave, instead of 2 for 1 ? It's ridiculous, but I am just hinting the direction without tampering with skills outside of ultimate for Aghanim to improve.

Skeleton King: You crit for 325% You have 35% lifesteal Stun cooldown reduced to 6 Ultimate cooldown reduced to 50 Deals 200 pure damage in aoe upon death [b]and[/b] reincarnation

that's disgustingly OP

[QUOTE=Constructor;39416713]that's disgustingly OP[/QUOTE] Ok gives 1000 max hp no random crits balanced

[QUOTE=Rarara;39416820]Ok gives 1000 max hp no random crits balanced[/QUOTE] It's dumb and you know it. Why even suggest such stuff ? It has no reasoning behind it, you spread effect onto other abilities beside his Ultimate for no apparent reason, why ? Aghanim Scepter is, as it's been written somewhere, situational upgrade. It is supposed to buff up your hero in a specific way, not be 100% pick up or the "super-buff". Would Night Stalker want Aghanim if he is the only carry-like hero on his team and you need pushing/fighting power more so than ganks past 1st night ? Every Witch Doctor wants his Aghanim, but sometimes enemy lineup is just made to interrupt anything so it won't be worth the money as you are betting 4200g on a slim chance that enemy will forget about you or waste everything on everyone else. Some Aghanim buffs require reworks, like Ish'kafel got a while ago. His Aghanim upgrade was purely fantastic, no matter the situation, thus got toned down. Now you won't go for Agha if enemy team has no copy-worthy hero by a mile and instead is focused on early game or magic dominance. What SK could use in his ultimate is mana cost removal, for cases where enemy counterpicks him with manaburns, but Soulring kinda fixes that if you are quick enough, so this is optional. SK is a rather hard carry, but he is by far not the hardest, yet his early game is nothing to be ashemed of. Thus, Aghanim would have to feature some mechanic that would give him edge in place where SK can skip on damage but needs to deal with somethign else. More so, early game/mid game cooldown is quite high, but he is a carry so farm-wise he would get to 16 pretty soon, so reducing cooldown early on might be good idea, all-round minute on 6/11/16. Now, the mechanic. What screws SK over just before or just after he starts carrying ? Aghanim here can work either to improve his mid-game, so it's either first/second item he goes for if it's right circumstance, or it can be late-game empowerer that allows him to stand up against harder carries a bit better than straight up damage items would. I will give this one a thought, but based on this, I think you guys can also come up with something. [editline]30th January 2013[/editline] With SK I think we gotta think Juggernaut Aghanim. Jugg is a carry that is not super-late game guy, but Aghanim serves well if either occurs. Early game it's 3 extra slashes, very much enough to either kill, finish someone off if they'd have lived otherwise, or spread damage around better. Late game it's longer invulnerability, while enough attack speed allows Juggernaut to attack while in ultimate, avoiding all the teamfight surprises enemies have to offer while still fighting, possibly killing carries while they can't fight back. Usual counter still applies : Ghost Scepter.

[QUOTE=Tokagero;39417851]It's dumb and you know it. Why even suggest such stuff ? It has no reasoning behind it, you spread effect onto other abilities beside his Ultimate for no apparent reason, why ? Aghanim Scepter is, as it's been written somewhere, situational upgrade. It is supposed to buff up your hero in a specific way, not be 100% pick up or the "super-buff". Would Night Stalker want Aghanim if he is the only carry-like hero on his team and you need pushing/fighting power more so than ganks past 1st night ? Every Witch Doctor wants his Aghanim, but sometimes enemy lineup is just made to interrupt anything so it won't be worth the money as you are betting 4200g on a slim chance that enemy will forget about you or waste everything on everyone else. Some Aghanim buffs require reworks, like Ish'kafel got a while ago. His Aghanim upgrade was purely fantastic, no matter the situation, thus got toned down. Now you won't go for Agha if enemy team has no copy-worthy hero by a mile and instead is focused on early game or magic dominance. What SK could use in his ultimate is mana cost removal, for cases where enemy counterpicks him with manaburns, but Soulring kinda fixes that if you are quick enough, so this is optional. SK is a rather hard carry, but he is by far not the hardest, yet his early game is nothing to be ashemed of. Thus, Aghanim would have to feature some mechanic that would give him edge in place where SK can skip on damage but needs to deal with somethign else. More so, early game/mid game cooldown is quite high, but he is a carry so farm-wise he would get to 16 pretty soon, so reducing cooldown early on might be good idea, all-round minute on 6/11/16. Now, the mechanic. What screws SK over just before or just after he starts carrying ? Aghanim here can work either to improve his mid-game, so it's either first/second item he goes for if it's right circumstance, or it can be late-game empowerer that allows him to stand up against harder carries a bit better than straight up damage items would. I will give this one a thought, but based on this, I think you guys can also come up with something. [editline]30th January 2013[/editline] With SK I think we gotta think Juggernaut Aghanim. Jugg is a carry that is not super-late game guy, but Aghanim serves well if either occurs. Early game it's 3 extra slashes, very much enough to either kill, finish someone off if they'd have lived otherwise, or spread damage around better. Late game it's longer invulnerability, while enough attack speed allows Juggernaut to attack while in ultimate, avoiding all the teamfight surprises enemies have to offer while still fighting, possibly killing carries while they can't fight back. Usual counter still applies : Ghost Scepter.[/QUOTE] Because what else do you do for SK? Reduce cooldown? Its low enough Make the slow better? It already slows for 50% over 3 seconds Something unique? Like what I don't get why just enhancing his abilities is such scumbag awful 0/10 move. Take Shadow Fiend for example. Increasing maximum soul would be pretty genius because it directly makes your ulti stronger and gives slightly more damage, of course it doesn't actually make his ultimate better, it just gives more souls. Maybe SK could have mana removal, but that would be shitty, he'd need something more, that doesn't include cooldown reduction. I do agreed my idea sucks though, but general ability empowering isn't that awful.

[QUOTE=Rarara;39418198]Because what else do you do for SK? Reduce cooldown? Its low enough Make the slow better? It already slows for 50% over 3 seconds Something unique? Like what I don't get why just enhancing his abilities is such scumbag awful 0/10 move. Take Shadow Fiend for example. Increasing maximum soul would be pretty genius because it directly makes your ulti stronger and gives slightly more damage, of course it doesn't actually make his ultimate better, it just gives more souls. Maybe SK could have mana removal, but that would be shitty, he'd need something more, that doesn't include cooldown reduction. I do agreed my idea sucks though, but general ability empowering isn't that awful.[/QUOTE] It's not awful, but tell me why any SK would ommit "general upgrade of everything pretty much " ? Aghanim scepter in design is not mandatory or 100% necessary, it's supposed to give you edge in one area, sometimes hero just goes into that direction more often than not. And with SF, idea isn't bad . I've commented on SK, but making SF's ultimate better while buffing his damage gained through souls looks cool, but I wonder if we can tweak it so that it's not "Odd-job Aghanim" that so happens to improve ability other than ultimate. I mean ,we have Ogre Magi ultimate which gives "another Fireblast", but I think we can work something out. [editline]30th January 2013[/editline] How about SK's ultimate instead of slowing for 50%, first stunned, then slowed. Mana cost removal and cooldown decrease to 60 seconds on all levels on top of that and you've got carry that if picks up Aghanim early makes for a nice teamfight nightmare (kill him = back and aoe stun). I am not sure about late-game though. It should give him some tiny edge, so maybe also decrease rebirth to 1 second, stun lasting 3, so he gets 2 seconds of freedom ?

Skeleton King: Reduces Cooldown to 200/100/50 seconds, and the ability can be activated to create a buff for 5 seconds during which you are reincarnated if you die. Can be activated through all crowd control, including stuns and silences. Cooldown 10 sec if you don't die, 50 sec if you do die. This way your mana couldn't be burned which would prevent the ult from working. A counter to countering SK with manaburn. Alternatively cooldown to 200/100/50 and no manacost.

Skeleton King: Mana cost reduced to 0 Cooldown 100 there you go. BALANCED.

[QUOTE=Bordellimies;39419067]Skeleton King: Reduces Cooldown to 200/100/50 seconds, and the ability can be activated to create a buff for 5 seconds during which you are reincarnated if you die. Can be activated through all crowd control, including stuns and silences. Cooldown 10 sec. This way your mana couldn't be burned which would prevent the ult from working. A counter to countering SK with manaburn. Alternatively cooldown to 200/100/50 and no manacost.[/QUOTE] So you get enough health, time your ult (remember, rebirth = full mana and hp) and you are immortal if enemies can't kill you in 10 seconds flat, and you still have 4 more allies back there ? Why ? SK is fine with being tought to kill, what issue does that solve that simple removal of manacost would not ? + It makes it bollocks early-mid as it requires insane amount of damage to kill him in 10 seconds if you don't burn everything, and when he reincarnates big enemy bombs are on cooldown. + Late game it's pretty weak, as a lot of carries are capable of killing SK in less than 10 seconds. Superfarmed Void, cirttin PA, PL with an army, etc. And if they weren't able, it would be even more stupid as suddenly you have a carry you stack 5 hearts on so that he just never dies and just stands there, toggling ult while enemy team kills him over and over until they are bored/won game/SK's team comes and makes game uneven. [editline]31st January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=nmagain;39419206]Skeleton King: Mana cost reduced to 0 Cooldown 100 there you go. BALANCED.[/QUOTE] 800 gold, soulring = no manacost on 30 sec cooldown for ult in case of manaburns + it gives passive manaregen and hp regen. Just manacost removal and cooldown tweaking is not worth 4200g and stats, at no point in the game. Not early, not mid, not pushing wars, not late game, nada. Again, Aghanim scepter = "different item for everyone" that helps them in certain area and gives general stats. NS's vision doesn't give him damage, it's purely for scouting/ganking. Carry NS doesn't benefit much from Aghanim, though his team would still appreciate it, but it's not required. Aghanim on ogre gives him another stun/nuke, which is great if there are things to nuke into orbit on enemy team, not so cool against Pudge + Centaur + Phantom Lancer + more heroes who shrug off heavy nukes, especially past certain point. Stun is nice and damage is nice too, but Scythe of vyse would go a long way as it disables more than a stun (removes dodge, etc). Aghanim Nature's Prophet makes it purely deal more damage and jump more targets. Yes, it can help farm, but you get it as a powerful magic nuke that you aim so it hits teamfight hard. It's not helping against BKBed targets, it's not helping right-click Tequoia, etc. And please, if you write a suggestion, argument it. I'd rather people flung shit with a sentence in it rather than just shit.

[QUOTE=Tokagero;39419231]snip cause long[/QUOTE] Yeah fixed my post, forgot to mentio nthe 10 sec CD only applied if you didn't die. Normal cooldown if you do.

[QUOTE=Bordellimies;39419395]Yeah fixed my post, forgot to mentio nthe 10 sec CD only applied if you didn't die. Normal cooldown if you do.[/QUOTE] 10 sec shaved off level 3 ult, buffer for avoiding getting manaburned. Still looks worthless for 4200. SK would rather get damage and if there are strong manaburns, soulring. Sure he can't use it when he's stunned, but a moment of freedom and it's 800g instead of 4200 and low stats compared to a Heart or any major damage item. Early game moreso as it's rare that people have enough lockdown and manaburns. Mid game, SK'll lack damage he needs to carry. Late game, lacks any "boom" about it. I mean, do people know why Aghanim is awesome on Faceless Void actually ? 60 sec cooldown on that powerful disable is significant, teamfights don't happen lategame more often then that, sometimes rarer due to longer cooldown on stuff like Black hole or reverse polarity. I think it could use some spicing up, like haste and unitwalking while in the Chronosphere to some degree counter getting disabled in there, but that would need a lot of tweaking.

[QUOTE=Tokagero;39419231]So you get enough health, time your ult (remember, rebirth = full mana and hp) and you are immortal if enemies can't kill you in 10 seconds flat, and you still have 4 more allies back there ? Why ? SK is fine with being tought to kill, what issue does that solve that simple removal of manacost would not ? + It makes it bollocks early-mid as it requires insane amount of damage to kill him in 10 seconds if you don't burn everything, and when he reincarnates big enemy bombs are on cooldown. + Late game it's pretty weak, as a lot of carries are capable of killing SK in less than 10 seconds. Superfarmed Void, cirttin PA, PL with an army, etc. And if they weren't able, it would be even more stupid as suddenly you have a carry you stack 5 hearts on so that he just never dies and just stands there, toggling ult while enemy team kills him over and over until they are bored/won game/SK's team comes and makes game uneven. [editline]31st January 2013[/editline] 800 gold, soulring = no manacost on 30 sec cooldown for ult in case of manaburns + it gives passive manaregen and hp regen. Just manacost removal and cooldown tweaking is not worth 4200g and stats, at no point in the game. Not early, not mid, not pushing wars, not late game, nada. Again, Aghanim scepter = "different item for everyone" that helps them in certain area and gives general stats. NS's vision doesn't give him damage, it's purely for scouting/ganking. Carry NS doesn't benefit much from Aghanim, though his team would still appreciate it, but it's not required. Aghanim on ogre gives him another stun/nuke, which is great if there are things to nuke into orbit on enemy team, not so cool against Pudge + Centaur + Phantom Lancer + more heroes who shrug off heavy nukes, especially past certain point. Stun is nice and damage is nice too, but Scythe of vyse would go a long way as it disables more than a stun (removes dodge, etc). Aghanim Nature's Prophet makes it purely deal more damage and jump more targets. Yes, it can help farm, but you get it as a powerful magic nuke that you aim so it hits teamfight hard. It's not helping against BKBed targets, it's not helping right-click Tequoia, etc. And please, if you write a suggestion, argument it. I'd rather people flung shit with a sentence in it rather than just shit.[/QUOTE] ok you win but please dont call furion "Tequoia" ever again

[QUOTE=Tokagero;39417851] Would Night Stalker want Aghanim if he is the only carry-like hero on his team and you need pushing/fighting power more so than ganks past 1st night ?[/QUOTE] yes actually because it makes pushes and teamfights super super safe

[QUOTE=dual elites;39419613]yes actually because it makes pushes and teamfights super super safe[/QUOTE] And Beastmaster hawk would do much worse ? Or well placed wards. Sure they'll drop off lategame with vision, but then Aghanim becomes useful again as danger of insta-wipe increases. Thus point of Aghanim. Early = killer sight Late game = safety zone

[QUOTE=Da_Maniac_;39412605]Apparently you don't, because necromastery is not his ult.[/QUOTE] well no fucking shit

Okay, a new and fun scepter buff for Skeleton King: Cooldown to 200/100/50 and no manacost, upon being revived Skeleton King deals damage equal to 200/300/400% of his Strength in an area around him, he gains armor equal to 30/40/50% of his agility, and % magical resistance equal to 15/20/25% of his intelligence. These defensive buffs weaken over a 10 second period.

cooldown changed to 0 no manacost when he revives he explodes in an aoe of 2400 for 1000 pure damage and stuns for 4 seconds obviously

[QUOTE=Bordellimies;39424881]Okay, a new and fun scepter buff for Skeleton King: Cooldown to 200/100/50 and no manacost, upon being revived Skeleton King deals damage equal to 200/300/400% of his Strength in an area around him, he gains armor equal to 30/40/50% of his agility, and % magical resistance equal to 15/20/25% of his intelligence. These defensive buffs weaken over a 10 second period.[/QUOTE] Cooldown decrease is significant for level 2 only (level 1 it's still very long, lvl 3 it saves 10 seconds). Damage equal to 400% of STR of a STR hero while nice (level 25 with HoT and BKB is around 161 str, i.e. 644 damage, add 10str/40 damage for Agha) what purpose does it serve ? A nuke around SK when he dies sounds cool, but what purpose does it serve ? Early game it will be weak, SK's str growth isn't insane like Warchief's or Pudge's. Late game it will be nice, but I doubt late game nuke of 600 is really significant, especially against enemy carries. Sure, you can jump into middle of enemy team and hope to hit anyone who is not uber-tanky by that point, but by then there should be enough disables for people to get away from you. Prior to that it's just a punch for people if they choose to kill you. They could easily just get some gankers/disablers like Bane, kill you once, run away and engage later on without your nuke in play, and with cooldown of 200/100 they can easily time their attack. And armor of 50% agility and magical resistance of 25%. Even if they stayed full for 10 seconds, they feel weird. 50% of SK's agility at 25 with Agha is around 45. That's 45 armor, unreasonably huge. 25% of SK's int at 25 with Agha is around 15, which is not too much, but given SK's hp it grants a lot of defense. I don't see purpose in this. What was the thought process behind it ? The idea that SKs needs this stuff and in situation he would need them, he would go for Agha, what is that situation and how does Agha fare then against other items with similar properties ? If we are talking survivability, how does that fare against Heart or BKB ? Damage wise wouldn't just MKB or Deso, combined with SK's crit and lifesteal work well ? Bareboned (pun intended) and out of the blue.

He's joking?

[QUOTE=ThatSprite;39425194]He's joking?[/QUOTE] Welcome to the internet where jokes are not indicated by your tone (written words lack that), you are not easy to distinguish and be remembered as "the joking type" because of the anonymity aspect and it's not rare for people to willingly shorten their responses due to lack of interest or motivation to actually be bothered.

I don't think I could come up with anyhting better for him, it would either be too underpowered, overpowered or too situational. How about you? I'd love to hear how you would upgrade it.

[QUOTE=Tokagero;39425231]Welcome to the internet where jokes are not indicated by your tone (written words lack that), you are not easy to distinguish and be remembered as "the joking type" because of the anonymity aspect and it's not rare for people to willingly shorten their responses due to lack of interest or motivation to actually be bothered.[/QUOTE]You type too much

Gondar: increases bonus gold for allies and self, and removes cooldown and manacost, and adds a minus-armor debuff. Yes, wouldn't it be fun to have an incredible stat-boosting item as Gondar for as cheap as 4,200 gold.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;39427475]Gondar: increases bonus gold for allies and self, and removes cooldown and manacost, and adds a minus-armor debuff. Yes, wouldn't it be fun to have an incredible stat-boosting item as Gondar for as cheap as 4,200 gold.[/QUOTE] It's not bad really, Gondar would rather throw shurikens than spend mana on Track. It's the bonus gold I am worried about. Gold is significant entire game , why would gondar not want to pick up Scepter with this ?

[QUOTE=Jzzb;39426035]You type too much[/QUOTE] I'd rather have overdeveloped than underdeveloped posts. Just because it's an internet forum doesn't mean you shouldn't think out what you're actually writing for others to read.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;39427475]Gondar: increases bonus gold for allies and self, and removes cooldown and manacost, and adds a minus-armor debuff. Yes, wouldn't it be fun to have an incredible stat-boosting item as Gondar for as cheap as 4,200 gold.[/QUOTE] removing both manacost and cooldown is retarded....