BioShock Infinite thread VII: I appreciate a lady, who appreciates value! - Games

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135397]I think it did a lot with this one.[/QUOTE] Sorta, yeah. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't take Columbia's racial politics any further than they did. [sp]I mean, they clearly hate Lincoln and idealize the Confederacy, so why did they adopt a system of segregation instead of just keeping slavery?[/sp]

Because they tried justify it as ''doing the best for, or coddling, the lower races while still letting them have some breathing space,". It's veiled racism.

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135373]No, I call it one of the biggest internal threats.[/QUOTE] Two party system and Comanpies controlling legislation to benefit profit gain are the bigest internal threats to the civil liberties of people and the democratic process undoubtedly. You see the thing is everyone with half a brain knows that separate but equal policy are archaic and wrong (hence them being banned in the United States in the late 60s), So what is the point of making a commentary on a system that everyone who isn't an idiot already knows does not work and is wrong? Germany obviously has a different set of political issues though.

[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;40135458][sp]Because they tried justify it as ''doing the best for the lower races while still letting them have some breathing space,"[/sp][/QUOTE] I suppose, I guess I'm just surprised that Columbia adopted the same racial politics as postwar America given how strongly they hate 'The Sodom Below.'

Another game based about the Red Scare and the space race could be cool, it could have a moon base as a "join effort" between the USA and USSR where it's quite clearly divided into two halves with some serious Us vs [I]Them[/I] attitudes.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135434]Sorta, yeah. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't take Columbia's racial politics any further than they did. [sp]I mean, they clearly hate Lincoln and idealize the Confederacy, so why did they adopt a system of segregation instead of just keeping slavery?[/sp][/QUOTE] It was basically slavery, I mean all the people working for Fink earned no money and were forced to live on company property.

[QUOTE=Rents;40135483]Another game based about the Red Scare and the space race could be cool, it could have a moon base as a "join effort" between the USA and USSR where it's quite clearly divided into two halves with some serious Us vs [I]Them[/I] attitudes.[/QUOTE] That was kinda-sorta done in Bioshock 1, but a Bioshock set on the moon would be amazing, especially if it was all about Cold War rhetoric. [editline]2nd April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Winters;40135487]It was basically slavery, I mean all the people working for Fink earned no money and were forced to live on company property.[/QUOTE] But that wasn't a racial program, in fact Finkton was less segregated than Columbia proper.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135434]Sorta, yeah. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't take Columbia's racial politics any further than they did. [sp]I mean, they clearly hate Lincoln and idealize the Confederacy, so why did they adopt a system of segregation instead of just keeping slavery?[/sp][/QUOTE] I don't know. This brings me to my other beef with the game. It changed its "theme" thoughout the game. While Bioshock 1 was pretty consistent, we get all of this "Prophet instead of Jesus" stuff in the very beginning but change to [quote] quantum decisions and its implications for booker[/stuff] later on. While BS 1 was very consistent with its critique towards the concepts of boundless liberalism, the critique towards religion, racism and tin god worshipingin BS:I ultimately misses its climax since its final peek is reached with Comstock and thus kind of watered down into the personal affairs part around Booker and Elizabeth. The prophet and especially his motivation gets a bit dehumanized by the supernatural character of the [sp]multi-dimension[/sp] concept and that makes the critique less ... unerring.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135494]But that wasn't a racial program, in fact Finkton was less segregated than Columbia proper.[/QUOTE] It wasn't racial but it was defiantly intended to keep The Poor, The Irish, And the Blacks as indentured servants. And the Poor, The Irish, And the Blacks are exactly the people who made up the Vox.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135494]That was kinda-sorta done in Bioshock 1, but a Bioshock set on the moon would be amazing, especially if it was all about Cold War rhetoric. [editline]2nd April 2013[/editline] But that wasn't a racial program, in fact Finkton was less segregated than Columbia proper.[/QUOTE] I hope the DLC expands around him. Also I was somehow reminded of Fable 3 a lot too.

[sp]Finkton was a businessman who couldn't give two and a half shits about the treatment of 'lesser races', he didn't buy into that bullshit, but he exploited it, he knew what was up with Comstock because of the 'murder' of Lady Comstock and the Luteces and that's partially why he is in such a position of power, it isn't clear which of his inventions are actually his and what are the Luteces. He saw the racial policies as a token to get practically free labour, but I guess the Finkton district was more lenient on those people as a method to keep the larger worker uprisings from happening. Even if it was still a shithole, it was still less policed and segregated since you had all the working population together, away from the aristocrats and middle class and such that lived higher up in the city.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135529]I don't know. This brings me to my other beef with the game. It changed its "theme" thoughout the game. While Bioshock 1 was pretty consistent, we get all of this "Prophet instead of Jesus" stuff in the very beginning but change to quantum decisions and its implications for booker later on. While BS 1 was very consistent with its critique towards the concepts of boundless liberalism, the critique towards religion, racism and tin god worshipingin BS:I ultimately misses its climax since its final peek is reached with Comstock and thus kind of watered down into the personal affairs part around Booker and Elizabeth.[/QUOTE] I don't agree. Bioshock was full of commentary on Randian politics, but the ultimate plot was all about choice, just as Infinite is full of commentary on early 20th century nationalism and racism, but is ultimately about choice/possibility. [editline]2nd April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Winters;40135535]It wasn't racial but it was defiantly intended to keep The Poor, The Irish, And the Blacks as indentured servants. And the Poor, The Irish, And the Blacks are exactly the people who made up the Vox.[/QUOTE] I think it's more like Fink was all about keeping the poor down, and the poor in Columbia are mainly black, asian, or irish because Columbia is racist as shit.

So I'm thinking on it now, and I am now 100% sure that [sp] Robert Lutece IS from Booker's timeline. I know a few people have debated about it or are just generally unsure, but here are some facts to back the point up: At the very end, the part where Booker tries to wrench Anna from Comstock's hands. If you stop and listen, on Rosalind Lutece's end, she's trying to convince her "twin" to enter the portal, but he is extremely unsure and they go back and forth for a bit about this, but the point is that he is unsure of whether or not entering the tear is safe. Also, the reason why Rosalind Lutece was the one to build the tear machine and not Robert was because not only did Robert not have the reason to (as Rosalind did, to build it for Comstock to get him a child) but also because Robert did not have the funding that Comstock afforded to Rosalind.[/sp]

Yes, Robert is definitely from [sp]one of the Comstock-free timelines[/sp], in any case.

Spoilers^?

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135576]I don't agree. Bioshock was full of commentary on Randian politics, but the ultimate plot was all about choice, just as Infinite is full of commentary on early 20th century nationalism and racism, but is ultimately about choice/possibility. [/QUOTE] Well yeah, the game itself was. But coming into rapture after it already failed had such a nice, sharp ring to it. That kinda seperated the critique of the concepts - the critique being the very world we are playing in and against - from the players actions. In BS:I the place WORKS. And it does until [sp]we fuck it up[/sp] And that's not the right kind of critique towards racism. [editline]2nd April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Aperture fan;40135599]So I'm thinking on it now, and I am now 100% sure that [sp] Robert Lutece IS from Booker's timeline. I know a few people have debated about it or are just generally unsure, but here are some facts to back the point up: At the very end, the part where Booker tries to wrench Anna from Comstock's hands. If you stop and listen, on Rosalind Lutece's end, she's trying to convince her "twin" to enter the portal, but he is extremely unsure and they go back and forth for a bit about this, but the point is that he is unsure of whether or not entering the tear is safe. Also, the reason why Rosalind Lutece was the one to build the tear machine and not Robert was because not only did Robert not have the reason to (as Rosalind did, to build it for Comstock to get him a child) but also because Robert did not have the funding that Comstock afforded to Rosalind.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]There are audiologs from Rosa that show that she is the one creating the connection. Only talk first, tears later. I think I found them in the Salty Oyster.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135639]Well yeah, the game itself was. But coming into rapture after it already failed had such a nice, sharp ring to it. That kinda seperated the critique of the concepts - the critique being the very world we are playing in and against - from the players actions. In BS:I the place WORKS. And it does until [sp]we fuck it up[/sp] And that's not the right kind of critique towards racism.[/QUOTE] That's not true at all! Columbia's oppressiveness towards the poor as well as nonwhites was directly responsible for the rise of the Vox Populi. Keep in mind [sp]Daisy Fitzroy murdered Lady Comstock without your help.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135639]In BS:I the place WORKS. And it does until [sp]we fuck it up[/sp] And that's not the right kind of critique towards racism.[/QUOTE] Well racism and segregation are a system that worked is the thing, lying and saying that every society with some sort of form of slavery would collapse on it's own is hogwash. I think the game is pretty obviously trying to make a statement about how the time people fondly refer to as the good ol' days we're only good to white protestant males born with a good amount of money. It also makes a direct statement about the highly religious and even despite their pious talk they often are corrupt and evil people. There is also a lot about nationalism and xenophobia but that's all really obvious.

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135639]Well yeah, the game itself was. But coming into rapture after it already failed had such a nice, sharp ring to it. That kinda seperated the critique of the concepts - the critique being the very world we are playing in and against - from the players actions. In BS:I the place WORKS. And it does until [sp]we fuck it up[/sp] And that's not the right kind of critique towards racism. [editline]2nd April 2013[/editline] [sp]There are audiologs from Rosa that show that she is the one creating the connection. Only talk first, tears later. I think I found them in the Salty Oyster.[/sp][/QUOTE] Well oppressing people generally does work for those doing the oppressing.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135666]That's not true at all! Columbia's oppressiveness towards the poor as well as nonwhites was directly responsible for the rise of the Vox Populi. Keep in mind [sp]Daisy Fitzroy murdered Lady Comstock without your help.[/sp][/QUOTE] This too.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135666]That's not true at all! Columbia's oppressiveness towards the poor as well as nonwhites was directly responsible for the rise of the Vox Populi. Keep in mind [sp]Daisy Fitzroy murdered Lady Comstock without your help.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]I'm pretty sure Comstock killed her.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135639] [sp]There are audiologs from Rosa that show that she is the one creating the connection. Only talk first, tears later. I think I found them in the Salty Oyster.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]That much we already knew, but what threw some people off was the reason why Ronald was not also creating a tear machine in his time line, since both Luteces are parallel one would only assume that they would be doing near enough the same things in their respective universes. I explained WHY Ronald was not the one creating the tears.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Mingebox;40135694]Well oppressing people generally does work for those doing the oppressing.[/QUOTE] Until the people getting oppressed decide they've had enough. Southern whites were TERRIFIED of slave revolts right up until the Civil War.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135666]That's not true at all! Columbia's oppressiveness towards the poor as well as nonwhites was directly responsible for the rise of the Vox Populi. Keep in mind [sp]Daisy Fitzroy murdered Lady Comstock without your help.[/sp][/QUOTE] It still works when you arrive. The Vox are pretty much broken at the point where Booker arrives,[sp] you can see that in the prison, there is a chalkboard with the major Vox Populi leaders and all of them except Fitzroy are marked as dead, even her husband[/sp] The racist machine above the clouds does indeed work. With stumbles here and there but it works. And that's why the critique is not as sharp this time. The concept doesn't fall on its own, the hero fucks it up.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135725]Until the people getting oppressed decide they've had enough. Southern whites were TERRIFIED of slave revolts right up until the Civil War.[/QUOTE] Not the only society where slavery was really important though, ancient Rome for example had a huge number of slaves and suffered a number of slaves revolts. None of which lead to their downfall.

reading this thread as someone who hasn't played the game yet is like reading a spy's dossier

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135743]It still works when you arrive. The Vox are pretty much broken at the point where Booker arrives,[sp] you can see that in the prison, there is a chalkboard with the major Vox Populi leaders and all of them except Fitzroy are marked as dead, even her husband[/sp] The racist machine above the clouds does indeed work. With stumbles here and there but it works. And that's why the critique is not as sharp this time. The concept doesn't fall on its own, the hero fucks it up.[/QUOTE] But the commentary isn't about how slavery and racism doesn't work!

[QUOTE=Killuah;40135743]It still works when you arrive. The Vox are pretty much broken at the point where Booker arrives,[sp] you can see that in the prison, there is a chalkboard with the major Vox Populi leaders and all of them except Fitzroy are marked as dead, even her husband[/sp] The racist machine above the clouds does indeed work. With stumbles here and there but it works. And that's why the critique is not as sharp this time. The concept doesn't fall on its own, the hero fucks it up.[/QUOTE] It 'works' on an economic level (just like segregated America did) but not on a moral one. I mean, raffles where you [sp]stone interracial couples to death?[/sp] Very much not cool. Also, the fact that the whole reason you're there is to ensure that [sp]Columbia never even exists[/sp] is a pretty damning critique.

[QUOTE=Winters;40135779]But the commentary isn't about how slavery and racism doesn't work![/QUOTE] That's what I was saying when I compared it to BS 1 !?

[QUOTE=Winters;40135761]Not the only society where slavery was really important though, ancient Rome for example had a huge number of slaves and suffered a number of slaves revolts. None of which lead to their downfall.[/QUOTE] Ancient Rome treated their slaves a lot better than the US did, funnily enough.