BioShock Infinite thread VII: I appreciate a lady, who appreciates value!
999 replies, posted
[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135666]That's not true at all! Columbia's oppressiveness towards the poor as well as nonwhites was directly responsible for the rise of the Vox Populi. Keep in mind [sp]Daisy Fitzroy murdered Lady Comstock without your help.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Comstock killed her to cover up Elizabeth's origins. The Fitzroy thing was a cover up of the cover up[/sp] :v:
[QUOTE=Killuah;40135792]That's what I was saying when I compared it to BS 1 !?[/QUOTE]
So then why is the commentary not as sharp when it is achieving what it wants to achieve and doing it well?
[QUOTE=Killuah;40135792]That's what I was saying when I compared it to BS 1 !?[/QUOTE]
Apples to oranges. You can't compare a critique of an economic system (BS1) to a critique of a moral/racial system.
[editline]2nd April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Smashman;40135802][sp]Comstock killed her to cover up Elizabeth's origins. The Fitzroy thing was a cover up of the cover up[/sp] :v:[/QUOTE]
Oh, right...
[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135788]It 'works' on an economic level (just like segregated America did) but not on a moral one. I mean, raffles where you [sp]stone interracial couples to death?[/sp] Very much not cool. Also, the fact that the whole reason you're there is to ensure that [sp]Columbia never even exists[/sp] is a pretty damning critique.[/QUOTE]
The fact that it needs the old hero formula to bring it down is not such a nice critique of a bad concept if you ask me.
[sp]As I recall, Fitzroy was actually Comstock's personal maid. She walked in while Zachary was murdering Lady Comstock and the rest is history.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Killuah;40135842]The fact that it needs the old hero formula to bring it down is not such a nice critique of a bad concept if you ask me.[/QUOTE]
But the commentary is on the immortality of the system not it's practicality, no matter how the system fell you cant argue that they did a poor job of showing just how shitty the system is to people.
[QUOTE=Killuah;40135842]The fact that it needs the old hero formula to bring it down is not such a nice critique of a bad concept if you ask me.[/QUOTE]
You don't need a huge practical lesson to show people that treating human beings like animals is bad. Also, the whole [sp]Order of the Raven[/sp] segment illustrates just how fucked Columbia is.
[editline]2nd April 2013[/editline]
Man, this game is really fucking good if it can start conversations like this.
[QUOTE=Winters;40135816]So then why is the commentary not as sharp when it is achieving what it wants to achieve and doing it well?[/QUOTE]
How am I supposed to answer this? Your point is that the game does exactly what it wanted to do and wanted to do what it does.
I'm saying that I'd like a critique towards the concepts of racism, religion and all that jazz a bit more if it didn't need the hero who kills hundred of "badies" with superpowers to fall.
Like in BS 1 when Rapture already fell before we even arrive.
Stratch that, I get what you're saying.
[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;40135888]You don't need a huge practical lesson to show people that treating human beings like animals is bad. Also, the whole [sp]Order of the Raven[/sp] segment illustrates just how fucked Columbia is.
[editline]2nd April 2013[/editline]
Man, this game is really fucking good if it can start conversations like this.[/QUOTE]
But that's where theories ultimately peak . Their practicability. There is no moral for the higher good. Moral is a consequence of the real world.
Your sentence is a paradox in itself.
[quote]]You don't need a huge practical lesson to show people that
[B]treating human beings like animals[/B] [/quote] <- this is a practical consequence of a bad moral concept[quote]is bad.[/quote]
Abstracted your sentence says "you don't need a huge practical lesson to show people that a huge practical consequence is bad"
But the thing is though Bioshock 1 was an economic system (one that was being talked about being brought back a lot at the time of release might I add) and not a social construct. Social constructs don't just collapse on their own like that and almost always require human intervention to make a change. Without the abolitionist movement slavery probably would've been a powerful system that would've lasted for a very long time in the united states. You could argue that the commentary demands people make some sort of change to stop slavery. But that is not what the commentary is trying to say, the commentary is trying to make a point about just how shitty the "good ol' days" as republican congressman so fondly are reminded of were.
Oh boy, I really don't want to get into moral relativism. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of Infinite players will have a problem with the darker parts of Columbia, which makes it a successful critique in my book.
If the fact that white supremacists, politicians, and fox news are out raged by the portrayal of the turn of the century American culture in this game, you should be hinted at the types of messages it is trying to send.
I'm really not willing to seperate social systems and economic systems. Every social and economic scientist I know from university is far beyond that. You can't seperate them like you are trying to for your argumentation.
Fact is, when we want to label a system good or bad we need to be objective.
Any concept of higher moral is highly subjective and therefor not usable.
"good" and "bad" are, in the end, abstractions from real world implications.
Racism is not bad because god or the law says so, racism is bad because its very core concept, treatment of people based on interchangable measures (like skin colour) that are not related to the valued quality is a paradox. Racism is bad because it live on the proposition that a certain quality is related to colour.
A bad concept needs to be exposed as bad in itself.
Or all together
Racism needs to be seen as bad because it is wrong in itself, not because a hero beats up all the members of the KKK.
[sp] Fink was probably one of the biggest pricks in the game, from him being at the raffle and getting ready to "stone" that couple to death with baseballs, and taking Chen Lin from his wife and killing him[/sp]
[QUOTE=Winters;40136084]If the fact that white supremacists, politicians, and fox news are out raged by the portrayal of the turn of the century American culture in this game, you should be hinted at the types of messages it is trying to send.[/QUOTE]
That's phenomenology and I really dislike it.
In this case it's correlated but as a basic principle I try to avoid liking things just because stupid people dislike them.
[QUOTE=Killuah;40136158]Racism is not bad because god or the law says so, racism is bad because its very core concept, treatment of people based on interchangable measures (like skin colour) that are not related to the valued quality is a paradox. Racism is bad because it live on the proposition that a certain quality is related to colour.
A bad concept needs to be exposed as bad in itself..[/QUOTE]
But the game fucking does that, it shows people being abused, lynched, stoned to death, and being left in deplorable conditions for no good reason. The game does exactly what you're saying.
[QUOTE=VietRooster2;40136182][sp] Fink was probably one of the biggest pricks in the game, from him being at the raffle and getting ready to "stone" that couple to death with baseballs, and taking Chen Lin from his wife and killing him[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Do we really get to know who killed Chen and his wife in the last dimension?[/sp]
[QUOTE=VietRooster2;40136182][sp] Fink was probably one of the biggest pricks in the game, from him being at the raffle and getting ready to "stone" that couple to death with baseballs, and taking Chen Lin from his wife and killing him[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]his voice is pretty damn sexy, though.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Killuah;40136188]That's phenomenology and I really dislike it.
In this case it's correlated but as a basic principle I try to avoid liking things just because stupid people dislike them.[/QUOTE]
That's also not what I'm saying, breaking out SAT words isn't impressing anyone or adding to your argument. You'r saying random shit because this game isn't the same type of commentary as the first bioshock and that makes you upset. Despite the fact that putting the same exact story and the same exact commentary into this game would ruin some of the thigns that make it great.
I think Bioshock Infinite's theme song is Fuck Tha Police by NWA
[QUOTE=a-cookiesfan;40136211][sp]his voice is pretty damn sexy, though.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Yes he was very well casted as that "douchebag that runs the big corporation/factory chain"[/sp]
[video=youtube;0Vk18lbP4WA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vk18lbP4WA[/video]
[QUOTE]Great game but for some reason it took me a very long time to finish[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Winters;40136194]But the game fucking does that, it shows people being abused, lynched, stoned to death, and being left in deplorable conditions for no good reason. The game does exactly what you're saying.[/QUOTE]
Yes but it shows the system in itself working quite well until the hero arrives.
It's not a big thing and we posted far too much about it but I liked the way Rapture did it much better.
Look at it this way: Imagine you'd take someone with the same mindset as the racists in Columbia and showed them the torture, the beating, the lynching and stoning, Columbia before Booker arrives.
He would see nothing wrong with it. He'd see white religious people being well off and everyone else being tortured.
And that's not a good critique.
Critique of a concept needs to convince people who agree with the critisized concept, not the ones who already know what's wrong with it.
Someone I know is saying the Bioshock series is an rpg with fps elements.
I'm saying it's an fps with rpg elements.
WHICH OF US IS RIGHT
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;40136263]Someone I know is saying the Bioshock series is an rpg with fps elements.
I'm saying it's an fps with rpg elements.
WHICH OF US IS RIGHT[/QUOTE]
It's much more of an FPS, with all the RPG elements (which I assume are the vigors, upgrades and all that.) spread about.
[QUOTE=Killuah;40136245]Look at it this way: Imagine you'd take someone with the same mindset as the racists in Columbia and showed them the torture, the beating, the lynching and stoning, Columbia before Booker arrives.
He would see nothing wrong with it. He'd see white religious people being well off and everyone else being tortured.
And that's not a good critique.[/QUOTE]
critique =/= commentary
Your goal isn't to convince those who're already convinced, it is to convince those who remain undecided.
Here's some things I only noticed on my second playthrough.
There is a lit cigarette next to the lighthouse keeper
[t]http://i.imgur.com/Zf3vGEf.jpg[/t]
The cash registers have unnecessarily good textures.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/qDw04bo.jpg[/t]
Someone in Columbia really hates seagulls.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/9v0o4ZK.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=Winters;40136214]That's also not what I'm saying, breaking out SAT words isn't impressing anyone or adding to your argument. You'r saying random shit because this game isn't the same type of commentary as the first bioshock and that makes you upset. Despite the fact that putting the same exact story and the same exact commentary into this game would ruin some of the thigns that make it great.[/QUOTE]
[quote]If the fact that white supremacists, politicians, and fox news are out raged by the portrayal of the turn of the century American culture in this game, you should be hinted at the types of messages it is trying to send[/quote]
If that's not "look the game obviously says racism is bad because the racists are upset" (aka phenomenology - please don't think people drop words just because, that's a quite stupid mindset to begin with - what is?
