[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;40093777][sp]if booker remembered everything in the end, then why shouldn't anna?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Who said she doesn't really? Also memories of people during their early years don't stay usually.
Also Booker sort of died, and remember how people "remembered" dying? I guess it might be the same thing. Elizabeth didn't die, she just more of, stopped.[/sp]
[QUOTE=J!NX;40093784][sp]she's... a baby?[/sp]
the fuck? :v:[/QUOTE]
[sp]so, she'd just forget
it wouldn't be like elizabeth never existed, anna just wouldn't remember
plus, sometimes people can remember things from infancy[/sp]
[editline]30th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;40093781][sp]Because Anna isn't Elizabeth in that particular dimension. At least that's how I figured it.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]but elizabeth was anna the whole time
no matter the dimension, they're still the same person (or something, alternate realities hurt my brain)
booker remembered columbia even though it never happened, either[/sp]
[QUOTE=J!NX;40093489][sp]After credits ending implies Booker still remembers EVERYTHING after everything was 'deleted'[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Wouldn't that mean that Anna would remember everything too? If we're assuming that the Booker we play as basically reverts to an earlier age (the age he would of been at the time when Anna is a baby) but he still remembers it, then it implies that even though the events of Columbia would of happened in their future, it doesn't stop them from remembering it. So what would make Booker remember it and not her?
I like to think that despite the fact that her life will be completely different in this timeline, she would still grow up to be pretty much the exact same person that we got to know.[/sp]
I've finished it for the second time in hard mode, and the only thing that I didn't fully understand yet is [sp]Why does Booker go forwards in time after songbird takes Elizabeth? Old Elizabeth says she brought you here because songbird always got you but how did she bring you here, I mean there was no tear or anything, you just crossed a storm it was the future[/sp]
[QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;40093830]I've finished it for the second time in hard mode, and the only thing that I didn't fully understand yet is [sp]Why does Booker go forwards in time after songbird takes Elizabeth? Old Elizabeth says she brought you here because songbird always got you but how did she bring you here, I mean there was no tear or anything, just past a storm it was the future[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]some sort of timey wimey shit on the bridge fucked you into an alternate dimension where comstock won and elizabeth turned evil, and then old elizabeth opens a tear to pull you out of that dimension[/sp]
at least, that's how i interpreted it
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;40093844][sp]some sort of timey wimey shit on the bridge fucked you into an alternate dimension where comstock won and elizabeth turned evil, and then old elizabeth opens a tear to pull you out of that dimension[/sp]
at least, that's how i interpreted it[/QUOTE]
[sp] You are kind of right I guess, remember sudden change of weather ? Summer thingy turned into winter. When you were traveling through mist you prob went through a tear.[/sp]
[QUOTE=J!NX;40093784][sp]she's... a baby? how the hell would she[/sp]
the fuck? :v:[/QUOTE]
[sp]Maybe she would remember, but obviously being a baby wouldn't be able to comprehend the memories, and by the time she's a kid the memories would be hazy. Booker can then tell her the fairytale-like story of how he saved her from the evil man who locked her in a tower in his colourful floating city.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Wyvers;40093828][sp]Wouldn't that mean that Anna would remember everything too? If we're assuming that the Booker we play as basically reverts to an earlier age (the age he would of been at the time when Anna is a baby) but he still remembers it, then it implies that even though the events of Columbia would of happened in their future, it doesn't stop them from remembering it. So what would make Booker remember it and not her?
I like to think that despite the fact that her life will be completely different in this timeline, she would still grow up to be pretty much the exact same person that we got to know.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]she's a baby dude :v[/sp]
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;40093807][sp]so, she'd just forget
it wouldn't be like elizabeth never existed, anna just wouldn't remember
plus, sometimes people can remember things from infancy[/sp]
[editline]30th March 2013[/editline]
[sp]but elizabeth was anna the whole time
no matter the dimension, they're still the same person (or something, alternate realities hurt my brain)
booker remembered columbia even though it never happened, either[/sp][/QUOTE]
yes but remembering all that would be extremely far fetched, and you aren't even self conscious at infancy.
and she still could, but "wouldn't she remember too" to argue against that is just completely silly :v: not that you are
I've found the files that need to be tampered with to change the game the only problem is the filetype is .xxx and I have no idea on what to use to open it
[QUOTE=J!NX;40093879][sp]she's a baby dude :v[/sp]
yes but remembering all that would be extremely far fetched, and you aren't even self conscious at infancy.
and she still could, but "wouldn't she remember too" to argue against that is just completely silly :v: not that you are[/QUOTE]
[sp]i'm just saying, it's incorrect to say "elizabeth never existed", because anna would still have some recollection of her time as elizabeth, it would just mostly fade away on account of babby[/sp]
[sp] Ending is really open ended. You can imagine whatever you want and because game was about multiple universes, everything can happen. So for some of you, Anna will remember some parts of Elizabeth's life, for some everything and for others none.
It will be open ended until some DLC/continuation will come out to continue the story or whatever
[/sp]
[sp]"One man goes into the waters of baptism, a different man comes out"[/sp] Goddamn
Just completed it on 1999 and everything, fighting [sp]Lady Comstocks[/sp] literally turned into siege battles with me abusing the tonic that turns dropped weapons into turrets.
I personally think it's *the* best game I've ever played. It's not perfect, but I can't say I ever had so much fun with and have ever been so invested in a game's setting, lore, combat, exploration and characters. Loved the organic bits where the situation seemed hopeless and then Elizabeth tossed me *just* the right thing, or just the right tonics clicked at just the right time, etc. I'm almost certain it's hardwired that Elizabeth tosses you some money when you're just a few coins short of buying an awesome upgrade, but by god every time that happened I loved her for it.
Already looking forward to more from 2K since the Bioshocks for me have exponentially improved with each installment. Ignoring Bioshock 2's failed multiplayer experiment of course.
Regarding the finale, [sp]hit me like all of Spec Ops The Line at once. Fucking devs knew I just wanted to see her in Paris. :|[/sp]
By the way, how many [sp]Bookers did Elizabeth drown? If we take causality very loosely, then she just killed the Comstock routes and the guilty-Booker ones were retconned into "happy"-Bookers who at least haven't sold their children to Comstock. If we take it more strictly (and this made me depressed), without Comstock route there can't be a guilt-filled Booker route, so both are destroyed along with every world similarly connected be it because Lutece/Fink/Comstock/Elizabeth peeked into a tear, a wild tear appeared in the city, or gameplay opened a tear. After that, Elizabeth used wish fulfillment (which as previously hinted at she could do at maximum power level) to create a new happy route, featuring a Booker and Anna that I don't care about. They might be terrible people. Living terrible, debt-ridden lives. Or might not be able to live with his debt and give her away anyway. Whatever the case, they're not the characters that I got attached to and that developed throughout the game. The real bummer is that even in the happiest route imaginable the universe will always dictate there's a man, a city and a girl. It might not be Booker, Columbia and Elizabeth, but something just as terrible is going to take place, and it will come with its own apocalypse endings.
All of that so in the bad endings Elizabeth isn't forced into bombing New York. Was that really worth it? Considering it's all infinite and thus infinitely unimportant, kind of irrelevant. That's the hollow Spec Ops-like part of the feeling I was left with. There's also nobody left to appreciate the good that's been done or to mourn what has been sacrificed - save for the player, which just made it even sadder for me. It was the ultimate loss following the ultimate victory. First overcoming the impossible odds of fighting the all-knowing Prophet and the overpowering Songbird, then just having to accept everyone dies anyway either by retcon or by NY bombing.[/sp]
My only [sp]stupid spark of light is that Elizabeth in the ending doesn't wear the gift you gave her and Booker didn't have his hand bandage - I don't think an AD mark either, which makes sense if in the final scene he becomes a... Booker that lived through the good ending and also hasn't taken a route at all? Strong "murder your dad" time paradox invoked there by Ms-Reality-Warps-And-Still-Can't-Create-A-Happy-Ending. Anyway, all that makes me wonder whether "my" Booker and Elizabeth still exist somewhere or if the finale merged them with all the other lighthouse-hub wandering instances or... urgh, this mix of time-travelling, reality warping and metaphor-ing is screwing with me.
Heck, seeing how we can't even be sure of whether the last Elizabeth vanishes and we can't be sure if Anna's in her cradle at the end, maybe "drowned" player character Booker at the very end just respawned like he always did and thus neither thus his route be invalidated, nor the Elizabeth that's part of it. It *would* take care of the "murder your dad" paradox simply that can't happen if respawn is in effect. Despite its heavy implications, the vanishing Elizabeths also don't *have* to mean death as the warping twins demonstrated. It would also add a whole new level of wtf tho. I mean, is the respawn room (that Booker's aware of, so it's not just a metaphor) introducing us to alternative Bookers that did everything exactly the same until point X and then didn't die... but also wondered what's that respawn room that's sudenly there? Is that room some probability-altering stuff? Some unique limbo insight into his psyche ('cause otherwise some stuff that happened in there doesn't make sense)? I mean this is the multiverse where losing part of your finger gives you superpowers. What if you lost part of your family?
...yeah I realize this is at least as desperate as the Indoctrination Theory but instead of smart observations is standing on Epileptic Trees grasping for straws. It's why I called that spark of light stupid.[/sp]
Apologies for the incoherent, incredibly nerdy rambling. It's just how much I loved this game.
Oh yeah and did Prophet [sp]knowingly fight fate or didn't he see Old Elizabeth interfering?[/sp]
[QUOTE=Soleeedus;40089429]This game is a lot deeper than you may think. Morality is a huge part of Infinite.[/QUOTE]
During the "Are you afraid of God? - No, but I'm afraid of you" bit I was actually taking it metaphorically as "I'm afraid of your judgment" instead of "I'm afraid of your superpowers" since Elizabeth reminded me of the Little Sisters of BS1 and Eleanor in BS2, both of which had to do with your moral choices.
I think the ending is absolutely amazing, but on the other hand I'm seeing a lot of it as plot holey. Either I don't understand it or there are some parts that don't make sense. Either way I fucking loved the whole thing. In any case here's what I think:
[sp]It makes sense that killing Booker before he gets/rejects getting baptized would cancel everything out - although I don't see how Booker and Anna could survive if that happened; every version of Booker would be dead since he died at the point where the split occurs? Unless there are alternate Bookers that never even end up in that place where the baptism happens.
But the point is, they never did kill the Booker before he made the decision; they drown the Booker that has already made the decision to reject the baptism a long time ago. Killing him shouldn't affect his past selves or any alternate versions of him unless there's something special about the place that allows Future Booker (the player at the end) to represent all the Bookers that ever existed in that place.
Even if that is the case, it's still a classic time travel paradox. If Elizabeth drowns Booker before he can make his decision, then Comstock never exists and that means Elizabeth never exists (as Elizabeth) and she won't be able to drown him.
But it's no big deal since the game does show you it has its own rules for time travel: For example that memories bleed through the different universes, so it makes sense that other things can affect each other as well, such as Booker dying way in the future affecting Booker's decision way in the past.[/sp]
Also it's spelled 'Lutece' :v:
Regarding the ending (Again, this time without 'what I wish happened') below
[sp]Personally, I don't think that Elizabeth sacrificed herself in the ending. She doesn't disappear like the rest of the Elizabeth's - who are frozen in place while everything happens. Once they all go, she steps back/sort of looks up, then the screen goes black. At no point does she disappear, or begin to fade out of existence like the others. This Elizabeth is unique, as unlike all the other ones, she and Booker got as far as they did. She dragged all the universes/realities in to one, and was able to see and comprehend them.
As a result, I don't think she's gone. Post credits, as I said after completing the game myself a few days ago, Booker sounds surprised. So, either she has magically reappeared or Booker has memories of what has happened. Elizabeth holds a lot of power, after all.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Wyvers;40093875][sp]Maybe she would remember, but obviously being a baby wouldn't be able to comprehend the memories, and by the time she's a kid the memories would be hazy. Booker can then tell her the fairytale-like story of how he saved her from the evil man who locked her in a tower in his colourful floating city.[/sp][/QUOTE]
That's kinda adorable
Crazy theory with lotsa holes and no sense:
[sp]The Elizabeths that drown you at the end are wearing the brooch that you -didn't- choose (or so I've heard?), meaning that they come from a set of different universes. I know what has been said about variables, but if we imagine that the brooch -did- have some effect, we don't know what it is.
So, at the point where the Elizabeth we know gets changed out with the Elizabeths with different brooches (when does this happen?), I'm thinking some kind of crazy cross could happen:
The Elizabeths with "your" brooch go to the baptism scene with an alternate Booker, while the Elizabeths with the other brooch goes with "your" Booker (the player). At that point we're back to square one; One Booker can accept to be drowned - the other could maybe reject it.
And become Comstock all over again??[/sp]
[sp]They're not wearing brooches[/sp]
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;40094054]Crazy theory with lotsa holes and no sense:
[sp]The Elizabeths that drown you at the end are wearing the brooch that you -didn't- choose (or so I've heard?), meaning that they come from a set of different universes. I know what has been said about variables, but if we imagine that the brooch -did- have some effect, we don't know what it is.
So, at the point where the Elizabeth we know gets changed out with the Elizabeths with different brooches (when does this happen?), I'm thinking some kind of crazy cross could happen:
The Elizabeths with "your" brooch go to the baptism scene with an alternate Booker, while the Elizabeths with the other brooch goes with "your" Booker (the player). At that point we're back to square one; One Booker can accept to be drowned - the other could maybe reject it.
And become Comstock all over again??[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]I just took a look at that scene, and none of the Elizabeths, including the "main" Elizabeth are wearing a brooch. Wonder if that means anything.[/sp]
[sp]Oh and in the game files the end area's are labelled as Lutece Tower[/sp]
Someone made an interesting point about using decoys in the game.
[img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/FwjYGtA.png[/img_thumb]
[quote][sp]It's a tear to bring a Booker that's just chilling out standing still into your world. The implication being that you are essentially sacrificing a version of yourself, who has lived out an entire life in a different universe, just to give you a slight edge in combat.[/sp][/quote]
[QUOTE=zeldar;40094121]Someone made an interesting point about using decoys in the game.
[/QUOTE]
Great, now I have to contemplate my morality while I'm attempting to get away from the Handyman. Real great :(
Brooch effect discussions:
[sp]The brooch you choose is different from every other attempt that the Lutece's have made. The past 122 attempts have, if Booker/Elizabeth have even made it as far, had Booker select the Brooch opposite to the one you select.[/sp]
I mean, it's obvious that the last 122 coin flips have been heads. The choice to [sp]Kill or spare Slate[/sp] doesn't really matter, as the conclusion is the same ([sp]Slate's death[/sp]).
There's no evidence of this being the case, but I like to think of it like that. [sp]None of the Elizabeth's actually wear the necklace in the final scene, if you look. Know what that means? That probably wasn't your Elizabeth.[/sp]
[sp]So, where is Elizabeth? Waiting for you post credits.
I wish :([/sp]
[QUOTE=zeldar;40094121]Someone made an interesting point about using decoys in the game.
[img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/FwjYGtA.png[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
I don't know, the faces looked pretty fake to me.
Well, the whole Decoy thing? Weird stuff would happen if you pulled an actual person through a tear, who was the same as the guy it was a decoy of. Instead, they just stand there uncaring, not even flinching.
Plus, tears like the ones Elizabeth uses in combat are only same-location-different-time tears, aren't they? Unlike the whole new ones she opens for herself. (Paris) Maybe they are just things that look like Booker that Elizabeth is just tossing up to confuse people.
Game runs quite horribly for me, can't keep up 60 FPS on any setting except for low. But ULTRA never goes below 30 fps...
[Sp]Considering how powerful Elizabeth is, isn't it possible that she knows that drowning you and killing you, will erase the current booker/comstock timelines, and send you back to a third one? I feel like if she was just killing that booker forever, she'd have a few words with you before hand. But I think she knows she's sending you back, and she's sending you back with your memory intact. That's why I think she does it so upbruptly, because she knows you'll live on and remember it all. That's kind of what I'm thinking. In the end, she's killing herself (or at least, her identity), and not you.[/sp]
[sp]that, or unlocking her powers sent her into a state where she's essentially a god, and just doesn't give a shit anymore[/sp]
[editline]30th March 2013[/editline]
[sp]not that that's what i think happened but who knows[/sp]
[QUOTE=DeeCeeTeeBee;40094004]Regarding the ending (Again, this time without 'what I wish happened') below
[sp]Personally, I don't think that Elizabeth sacrificed herself in the ending. She doesn't disappear like the rest of the Elizabeth's - who are frozen in place while everything happens. Once they all go, she steps back/sort of looks up, then the screen goes black. At no point does she disappear, or begin to fade out of existence like the others. This Elizabeth is unique, as unlike all the other ones, she and Booker got as far as they did. She dragged all the universes/realities in to one, and was able to see and comprehend them.
As a result, I don't think she's gone. Post credits, as I said after completing the game myself a few days ago, Booker sounds surprised. So, either she has magically reappeared or Booker has memories of what has happened. Elizabeth holds a lot of power, after all.[/sp][/QUOTE]
I think [sp]when the last Elizabeth disappears, and it goes to a black screen, it shows that the dimension they were in ceased to exist as well. If not, the piano key confirms she disappears as well.[/sp]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/jaRaGCj.jpg[/t]
sup
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