[QUOTE=guicool-BR-;40195000]I think that [sp]they really did it. I mean, the combination used on the lighthouse to 'ascend' was 122, and the coin ends Heads 122 times, so I guess they killed the guy 122 times[/sp][/QUOTE]
the combination changes i believe.
[QUOTE=guicool-BR-;40194957][sp]The baptism is a constant, accepting it is a variable, and according to the game, Comstock only exists if the baptism is accepted, so goes like constant -> variable -> constant.[/sp]
[sp]There's also the possibility that he never went the baptism, however that conclusion is same as if he went but refused[/sp]
[sp]Like I explained in the first page, let me give you another example (you can use more universes, the same conclusion will happen)
Universe A and B exist. (or C and D, or E and F, or X or Y)
A is an universe that he rejected OR never went
B is an universe that he accepted
A creates the playable character, Booker
B creates the 'bad guy' character, Comstock
The game (more specifically Elizabeth) bring the playable character to the beginning of the sentence 'A/B is an universe that he...'
Since things are working like constant -> variable -> constant, the game (or she) changes things into constant -> constant, removing this variable and becoming this:
A is an universe that he rejected OR never went
B is an universe that he accepted but died
A creates Booker
B creates no characters[/sp][/QUOTE]
this still doesn't attack the central problem of how they actually isolate that decision
[QUOTE=Rusty100;40195009]the combination changes i believe.[/QUOTE]
Changes everytime that [sp]Booker fails but the guy staying dead is a constant, you said it yourself, Columbia is only reachable when (not if) he's dead [/sp]
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;40195008]i guess what i'm saying is [sp]how is it possible to actually isolate every single instance in which booker chooses the baptism, it doesn't really make sense.
2. another critical issue i have that is sort of unresolved is the fact that killing booker in the first place actually solves anything - how is it that by entering one universe booker gets the role of the individual in that universe? the luteces are the same person from multiple universes - when they join together in the same universe they don't assimilate into one another. when booker enters comstocks universe they don't assimilate into one another. why is it that a booker - from the future no less - has the ability to go back into the past assimilate and "become" the booker of the past, and eliminate every one of his copies? i would understand if they went back and they killed another booker and by extension he faded away, but why does his death have any effect?[/sp][/QUOTE]
i think you are at this point going way deeper than is necessary, especially for a game with themes like this. the hard fact is that none of this is possible, and going too indepth into a plot like this will always raise infinite metaphysical questions. to a certain extent you have to take the story it's telling at face value. while they clearly want you to think about it, you still have to accept that the universe works the way the game says it works. it's a waste of time to go 'hey but what if it works like this?? then this doesn't make sense!!' there's only so much depth you can put into a narrative, and i'm amazed at how much they put into it in the first place. but the more you put in, the more open it becomes to deeper analysis. i think we should be happy they put so much effort into it as it is.
[editline]8th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=guicool-BR-;40195047]Changes everytime that [sp]Booker fails but the guy staying dead is a constant, you said it yourself, Columbia is only reachable when (not if) he's dead [/sp][/QUOTE]
no i mean the bell ringing combination changes.
[editline]8th April 2013[/editline]
i can't confirm that but i think it does? maybe it depends on difficultly? not that any are difficult, just that it would give it more of a reason to change.
[QUOTE=Jojje;40194851][sp]Going to the baptism is a constant. Accepting it or not is a variable.
There are two outcomes there, regularly. One where he accepts the baptism and is reborn as Comstock.
The other where he doesn't and remains Booker Dewitt.
They made sure that the Comstock outcome is eliminated completely, as he is drowned when he accepts the baptism.
So the only way for any of the Bookers to live is for them to not take the baptism.
Thus, Booker lives, but only the ones that don't take the baptism.[/sp][/QUOTE]
About time i saw someone point out that he [sp] accepts the baptism and is drowned after [/sp]
[QUOTE=Chickens!;40195071]About time i saw someone point out that he [sp] accepts the baptism and is drowned after [/sp][/QUOTE]
afaik [sp]comstock booker timeline, elizabeth doesn't even give him a chance to accept it. he is just put in the timeline where he DOES, and is stopped before he even does. you only see the priest, then you immediately turn around and are drowned. you never accept anything, but you're in the timeline where you were GOING to.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;40195056]i think you are at this point going way deeper than is necessary, especially for a game with themes like this. the hard fact is that none of this is possible, and going too indepth into a plot like this will always raise infinite metaphysical questions. to a certain extent you have to take the story it's telling at face value. while they clearly want you to think about it, you still have to accept that the universe works the way the game says it works. it's a waste of time to go 'hey but what if it works like this?? then this doesn't make sense!!' there's only so much depth you can put into a narrative, and i'm amazed at how much they put into it in the first place. but the more you put in, the more open it becomes to deeper analysis. i think we should be happy they put so much effort into it as it is.[/QUOTE]
and this is my issue with it like we had last night - the last five minutes was a big immersion breaker for me which was disheartening considering how incredible the rest of the game was at creating a suspension of disbelief.
it's just that the ending isn't... consistent with the provided logic of the game. i'll get crucified for saying this but it's sort of like the ending of mass effect 3 in that regard, not that they are in any way comparable
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;40195008]i guess what i'm saying is [sp]how is it possible to actually isolate every single instance in which booker chooses the baptism, it doesn't really make sense.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Elizabeth, the anomaly-slash-goddess of the multiverse did it. (AKA I don't know man, nice question)If she says 'When this happens, nothing else will', I'm taking her word for it.[/sp]
[QUOTE][sp]2. another critical issue i have that is sort of unresolved is the fact that killing booker in the first place actually solves anything - how is it that by entering one universe booker gets the role of the individual in that universe?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]He didn't - The Luteces brought him.[/sp]
[QUOTE][sp]the luteces are the same person from multiple universes - when they join together in the same universe they don't assimilate into one another.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Not really, [sp]gender IS a difference[/sp]
[QUOTE][sp]when booker enters comstocks universe they don't assimilate into one another. why is it that a booker - from the future no less - has the ability to go back into the past assimilate and "become" the booker of the past, and eliminate every one of his copies? i would understand if they went back and they killed another booker and by extension he faded away, but why does his death have any effect?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Elizabeth, the anomaly-slash-goddess of the multiverse did that. Remember that at first, he rejects? Well, we never saw his face there.[/sp]
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;40195114]and this is my issue with it like we had last night - the last five minutes was a big immersion breaker for me which was disheartening considering how incredible the rest of the game was at creating a suspension of disbelief.
it's just that the ending isn't... consistent with the provided logic of the game. i'll get crucified for saying this but it's sort of like the ending of mass effect 3 in that regard, not that they are in any way comparable[/QUOTE]
i don't agree. this ending really sucked me in, i believed it. it never broke immersion for me and i don't feel it's out of place at all.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;40195032]this still doesn't attack the central problem of how they actually isolate that decision[/QUOTE]
at atomic level or at apple level or at city level ?
[QUOTE=Rusty100;40195056]i think you are at this point going way deeper than is necessary, especially for a game with themes like this. the hard fact is that none of this is possible, and going too indepth into a plot like this will always raise infinite metaphysical questions. to a certain extent you have to take the story it's telling at face value. while they clearly want you to think about it, you still have to accept that the universe works the way the game says it works. it's a waste of time to go 'hey but what if it works like this?? then this doesn't make sense!!' there's only so much depth you can put into a narrative, and i'm amazed at how much they put into it in the first place. but the more you put in, the more open it becomes to deeper analysis. i think we should be happy they put so much effort into it as it is.
[editline]8th April 2013[/editline]
no i mean the bell ringing combination changes.
[editline]8th April 2013[/editline]
i can't confirm that but i think it does? maybe it depends on difficultly? not that any are difficult, just that it would give it more of a reason to change.[/QUOTE]
No, doesn't change. [sp]Another reason to believe that the game is NOT on a loop, it's actually closing one.[/sp]
I think it's in a loop. Someone wants to draw the parallels between Donnie Darko and this ?
[QUOTE=fritzel;40195136]at atomic level or at apple level or at city level ?[/QUOTE]
is this supposed to be a crack orr
[QUOTE=fritzel;40195136]at atomic level or at apple level or at city level ?[/QUOTE]
wtf?
so if [sp]the lutece twins are the same person, just different genders from different universes, does that mean the Comstock from Robert Lutece's universe is a Woman?[/sp]
[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;40195572]so if [sp]the lutece twins are the same person, just different genders from different universes, does that mean the Comstock from Robert Lutece's universe is a Woman?[/sp][/QUOTE]
Robert Lutece's universe [sp]has a Booker, not a Comstock.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;40195572]so if [sp]the lutece twins are the same person, just different genders from different universes, does that mean the Comstock from Robert Lutece's universe is a Woman?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]No. It means he is still Booker, Robert Lutece is from the Booker you play as' universe.[/sp]
Probably late but:
[video=youtube;Pd9qFzCme-Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd9qFzCme-Q[/video]
[QUOTE=guicool-BR-;40195679]Probably late but:
[video=youtube;Pd9qFzCme-Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd9qFzCme-Q[/video][/QUOTE]
this is what Lutece wanted you to do when she sent you that telegram
Oh my god i know have to play through the entire game in French goddammit.
[QUOTE=fritzel;40195184]I think it's in a loop. Someone wants to draw the parallels between Donnie Darko and this ?[/QUOTE]
dlc confirmed where columbia falls out of the sky and lands on a schizophrenic teenager's house
Man all of this talk is stimulating, it really makes me want to play the game again to get a better explanation of all the bits and pieces I've missed.
On a different note however, does anyone know [sp] how long time elapsed from entering Old-Elizabeth's Universe to returning to the "current" universe?[/sp]
[QUOTE=HazeFyer23;40196228]On a different note however, does anyone know [sp] how long time elapsed from entering Old-Elizabeth's Universe to returning to the "current" universe?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]About 70 years 1912 - 1984 I think[/sp]
[editline]7th April 2013[/editline]
Oh wait sorry I misread you [sp]Booker trys to ask how long Elizabeth was there but she never gives an answer. She only says a long time so I guess at least a few months.[/sp]
[QUOTE=TheWhiteFox1;40193981]So, what was up with the [sp]kinetoscopes[/sp] near the end of the game, where they begin to get really weird (Like the one that's [sp]just a shot of hummingbirds at a bush for 30 seconds[/sp])?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Scot;40194032]They're just pretty pictures. Mostly reminding you of what Columbia used to be like, creating a contrast.[/QUOTE]
[sp]I thought so too, but it is a series of kinetoscopes by the same photographer and the last one shows him getting pushed off something and then showing "RIP: Whatever his name was". They were in the Comstock house too so they were extra creepy because of that[/sp]
[url]http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Drill_Specialist[/url]
Infinite needed something like this.
i just assumed [sp]he fell[/sp]
[QUOTE=Jojje;40194851][sp]Going to the baptism is a constant. Accepting it or not is a variable.
There are two outcomes there, regularly. One where he accepts the baptism and is reborn as Comstock.
The other where he doesn't and remains Booker Dewitt.
They made sure that the Comstock outcome is eliminated completely, as he is drowned when he accepts the baptism.
So the only way for any of the Bookers to live is for them to not take the baptism.
Thus, Booker lives, but only the ones that don't take the baptism.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Thank you for such a great explanation. [sp]Now there is one thing that makes me wonder... what's going to happen with REAL Elizabeth. The REAL Elizabeth didn't step with you through the last doors. The one's you see is just a clone from other world. Do you think she is still alive in other world?[/sp]
[QUOTE=coverop;40196747]Thank you for such a great explanation. [sp]Now there is one thing that makes me wonder... what's going to happen with REAL Elizabeth. The REAL Elizabeth didn't step with you through the last doors. The one's you see is just a clone from other world. Do you think she is still alive in other world?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]I think there is a possibility she exists under the same parameters as the Luteces but who knows[/sp]
[QUOTE=coverop;40196747]Thank you for such a great explanation. [sp]Now there is one thing that makes me wonder... what's going to happen with REAL Elizabeth. The REAL Elizabeth didn't step with you through the last doors. The one's you see is just a clone from other world. Do you think she is still alive in other world?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp] I have a feeling she simply doesn't exist anymore. Because comstock doesn't exist, that world was never created, thus she never become Elizabeth. [/sp]
I'm sure this has been mentioned already in the last 4 or so threads but I like how (BS1/BS2/BSI spoilers) [sp]in all the Bioshock games, they involve the child killing their father. In Bioshock 1 after Andrew Ryan reveals to Jack that he is Ryan's legitimate child and that you were taken away from him, you kill him. In BS2 your little sister is taken from you and you spend the whole game getting her back only to have her put you out of your misery as you lay dying after getting her back to the surface. In BSI after you give your child away/ taken from you, Elizabeth(s) drowns you at the end to stop any part of Infinite from happening.[/sp]
Also just a bit of silly speculation but [sp]what if Delta and Eleanor Lamb are the Booker Dewitt and Elizabeth in the Rapture world? Elizabeth is often referred to as "the Lamb" and Delta's drive to find and protect Eleanor is similar to Booker protecting Elizabeth.[/sp]
But for all I know it's just silly speculation and there aren't any real connections between those characters.
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