Starcraft 2 HOTS v1 Megathread - Kerrigan is coming (USE SPOILERS TILL 28.3.2013)
1,000 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40037743]What unit do I make against widow mines that are well used
I've looked everywhere for an answer to this besides long micro because that doesn't work once they sit on those mines[/QUOTE]
if you play zerg, bring an overseer with you and throw one zergling to it (that's a 25 mineral loss, basically negligible)
if you play protoss, bring an oracle (much more common with stargate openers), and then use envision and kill it with stalkers
if you play terran, drop a scan and shoot it with mariners
you really don't counter widow mines per se, you simply negate them with vision
[QUOTE=SystemGS;40037909]if you play zerg, bring an overseer with you and throw one zergling to it (that's a 25 mineral loss, basically negligible)
if you play protoss, bring an oracle (much more common with stargate openers), and then use envision and kill it with stalkers
if you play terran, drop a scan and shoot it with mariners
you really don't counter widow mines per se, you simply negate them with vision[/QUOTE]
something that zerg suffers from due to being targetable by the widow mine on it's own
i know to do this when i'm going in with a muta strike but it doesn't really change how easily those mines hit and how much damage they do over such a spread radius
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40037449]people keep telling me this, but i don't think so
a cheap, non suiciding, air hitting auto reloading baneling that zerg doesn't have the same easy counter to that terran has
in order to properly counter terrans who use them well, and sit on them to help bolster their armies, or who use them near their own mineral lines to counter muta runs, you need to be doing a lot of things to counter a static defense
they don't have to do anything
it's not about me being bad or dumb or stupid or anything. I run singlular, to small grouped zerglings towards those mines to eat them up first. You can't do that if they sit on them. You can't do that if they're smart and place them in defensive places that most heavily counter my "get in get out" style of play with mutas
i mean, they're cheaper than banelings, and do vastly more than a baneling does, and they can burrow by deafault, if I add up all I need to do that to get a small baneling force burrowed(lets not even talk about getting placement perfect so I don't accidentally have them out of place when they move over my banes) it's a vastly larger amount that a group of widow mines, a highly efficient unit that forces a reaction out of me.
maybe i'm just the worst player in gold or something, but widows do not seem balanced to me[/QUOTE]
I just lost a game because my widow mines blew up my entire army....
Balance issues affect all levels of play. While the argument "Balance doesn't matter unless you're in masters/gm" is partly true, saying that low leagues should ignore balance is wrong.
If 2 gold players are on exactly the same gold skill level and are playing a match against each other, and 1 has something imbalanced for their side, they will most likely win or have an easier time. Period.
Not only that, but overpowered/underpowered units encourage the wrong way to learn the game. A player starting out in bronze that works his way up to masters using something overpowered will have a false understanding of the game. This is bad for all levels of play. These are the players who bitch the most when something overpowered gets nerfed. We all know Blizzard isn't the best when it comes to listening to their community about balance changes, so when you have a massive group of bad players who got high rank because of something broken suddenly start complaining in mass, the balance team will notice. 1 or 2 bad players suggesting shitty balance ideas gets nowhere. A mass of them doing the same will end up hurting the game.
While I wouldn't take everything a low league player says to heart about how to balance the game, I'd still at least listen. If a common problem persists throughout all leagues of play, not just high level, there is definitely something wrong.
I haven't dealt too much with widow mines yet myself, but the design of the unit at the current moment does suggest it might be a bit too strong. The lack of any micro needed by the Terran part makes it a bit too user friendly. Maybe if they acted as a spell caster, where you had to manually activate the shot yourself, would help make it balanced. Increasing the amount of micro multitasking might be all we need to fix it. Since a-move armies are the biggest problem in the game so far. (I'm look at you colossi)
[QUOTE=igamiwarr;40037520]non-pro tip if you are in bronze to diamond (even in low masters really) for the love of god don't complain about balance issues.[/QUOTE]
Balance problems dont "exist" in lower leagues because there is ALWAYS room for you to improve.
Not to mention literally massing any unit with good mechanics can earn you a free diamond spot, hell even masters if your mechanics are that good.
Mass Marines/Mass Lings/ Mass Stalkers, etc.
I still remember Losira beating na high masters zergs with nothing but pure tank, even when they went mutas, he had so many tanks that 8-12 mutas were irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Quantuam VTX;40038389]Balance problems dont "exist" in lower leagues because there is ALWAYS room for you to improve.
Not to mention literally massing any unit with good mechanics can earn you a free diamond spot, hell even masters if your mechanics are that good.
Mass Marines/Mass Lings/ Mass Stalkers, etc.
I still remember Losira beating na high masters zergs with nothing but pure tank, even when they went mutas, he had so many tanks that 8-12 mutas were irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
read above you
if people are equal skill against each other, and there is a balance problem it comes to shine there
it exists, and you dont' always get to sweep it under the rug.
i know my mechanics and macro needs work, i know that's my biggest failure right now
[QUOTE=igamiwarr;40037520]non-pro tip if you are in bronze to diamond (even in low masters really) for the love of god don't complain about balance issues.[/QUOTE]
I think you have to remember that more than just master+ play this game(bronze to diamond). It's not just balancing the game at a competitive level, you've also got to make sure that the newer players are able to deal with these sorts of thing too. Otherwise it's just no fun for them.
Anyone got some tips for a bronze league terran?
[QUOTE=fantafuzz;40038777]Anyone got some tips for a bronze league terran?[/QUOTE]
Get your orbital command up quickly, remember MULES and have enough barracks to be able to keep yourself poor by pumping marines.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40037569]Even blizzard has said that they want balance to come from more than just masters you know.[/QUOTE]
Yeah masters players aren't always correct about balance. But it is a hell of a lot more relevant to get feedback from them rather than at lower levels of play where losses come from lack of skill regarding basic game mechanics rather than certain units being too strong.
That is why I don't bitch about protoss every time I get hit by a fast 2 base colossus timing attack and die from it because I know that if I worked on my unit control that wouldn't happen. (which is only one of the many issues with the matchup I have)
The Window Mine is strong but it is not as bad as some people on here are claiming it to be.
[QUOTE=Alexander.;40039288]The Window Mine is strong but it is not as bad as some people on here are claiming it to be.[/QUOTE]
I just have trouble handling the reaction to it. I do the ling micro. I do the micro with overseers to avoid it. but he just puts down one or two units, and causes me to have to react massively where as I don't see me having that ability to do that to him.
After completing the campaign, I really think Bluzzard should really start making some films.
The only thing I don't like about widow mine is... it puts way too much need for a micro on an opponent.
For such a small unit, that is easily produced very early in the game, it puts too much of a pressure on unit microing, while not much on a terran side... Because sending a mine to burrow here and there... isn't much of a problem to be honest. But avoiding it in order to not lose 50%+ of your army... well, here comes the funny part.
It's just my problem with it. Maybe I'm over exaggerating the problem, but well... that's what I get for playing zerg, losing half of my lings to a single very cheap unit. Don't get me wrong, I got banelings, but they do not activate by themselves, remain working after detonating and are invisible when armed.
[QUOTE=Avager;40040497]The only thing I don't like about widow mine is... it puts way too much need for a micro on an opponent.
For such a small unit, that is easily produced very early in the game, it puts too much of a pressure on unit microing, while not much on a terran side... Because sending a mine to burrow here and there... isn't much of a problem to be honest. But avoiding it in order to not lose 50%+ of your army... well, here comes the funny part.
It's just my problem with it. Maybe I'm over exaggerating the problem, but well... that's what I get for playing zerg, losing half of my lings to a single very cheap unit. Don't get me wrong, I got banelings, but they do not activate by themselves, remain working after detonating and are invisible when armed.[/QUOTE]
this is exactly my problem with it
it forces me to micro around it in order to survive, where as he's just put it down and has a power to deny me without me microing around it
it's a tool to force a player to react, and that gives the terran their own gap to react and fuck you while you're just responding to a static unit
Widow mines are really problematic because everyone is used to just a moving their armies without paying attention.
All you gotta do is detect them and destroy them from afar, alternatively send sacrificial units to put the mines on cool down and then sweep in and destroy them. Designwise they really shouldn't be able to target air because thats like the only logical way to deal with mines in a game of starcraft :v:
Its very hard to do if you are not used to it, its just a matter of learning and getting used to it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40040529]this is exactly my problem with it
it forces me to micro around it in order to survive, where as he's just put it down and has a power to deny me without me microing around it
it's a tool to force a player to react, and that gives the terran their own gap to react and fuck you while you're just responding to a static unit[/QUOTE]
pretty much
they cost too much attention from the opposing player to be balanced for a unit which is cheap and requires very little micro
[editline]26th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;40037654]the thing is, at lower levels of play, it's a matter of figuring out how to properly counter the unit as opposed to it actually being imbalanced[/QUOTE]
unless it is actually imbalanced
[editline]26th March 2013[/editline]
The idea that sub-pros should not be allowed to complain about balance is silly. The game should feel balanced across all levels of play. Saying, "well the pros don't have any problem with it so the unit is fine" is all well and good except that a unit that makes everyone diamond and below suffer horribly until they practice enough to be korean gm is not a good design choice
[editline]26th March 2013[/editline]
At least it's not as bad as spider mines lol
3 each from a super OP unit that costs only 75 minerals. Have fun sacrificing those lings! They're worth more than the spider mine!
idk banelings are pretty op at low levels in TvZ and ZvZ because the only way to deal with them if you are playing optimally using sophisticated micro. Can't expect a silver level terran to be able to marine split and target down banelings with tanks. And for the love of god you can't expect a gold zerg to be able to play ling bane wars without luck playing a huge role.
True but they can be countered through just making units that don't get killed by them easily if you see them coming
i.e. baddie 1 makes nothing but bling and baddie 2 scans and just makes stalkers
that would require scouting :v:
these problems are even apparent at diamond because some people just can't or refuse to micro lol
Widow mines op
[quote]Saying, "well the pros don't have any problem with it so the unit is fine" is all well and good except that a unit that makes everyone diamond and below suffer horribly until they practice enough to be korean gm is not a good design choice[/QUOTE]
You guys are acting like this is the only unit that is like this.
If you nerf a unit to the point that it is easy for people in Bronze league to deal with it will never be used in competetive play.
I made that statement anyways because people generally focus on balance too much.
Recently learned that +1 carapace is way better than +1 attack in muta wars and just applied it to give myself a decided advantage and won the game.
Feels improved, man.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;40042940]Recently learned that +1 carapace is way better than +1 attack in muta wars and just applied it to give myself a decided advantage and won the game.
Feels improved, man.[/QUOTE]
i've always felt like armor was a good upgrade first for zerg
lets you get away better and come back harder without the loss of as many units in my experience
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;40042634]True but they can be countered through just making units that don't get killed by them easily if you see them coming
i.e. baddie 1 makes nothing but bling and baddie 2 scans and just makes stalkers[/QUOTE]
But the thing with widow mines is that baddie terran has a harder time getting the correct burrows off, spreading his widow mines, consciously picking the best chokes to put them as well as keeping them with his army. While I agree 100% with the fact that it requires very little micro for what it gives the Terran, it was an aspect desperately needed pretty much across all match-ups and after some tweaking I fully expect it to be balanced even in TvZ.
I'm not saying it needs to be removed entirely. Frankly the widow mine has the space control potential that I miss from BW. I just think it's more effective than its investment warrants so it needs a bit of a nerf somehow.
[QUOTE=-n3o-;40039554]After completing the campaign, I really think Bluzzard should really start making some films.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but the problem is that it probably took them ages just to create a whole cutscene.
i still think invisible units instakilling 150/150 air units is bullshit
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