[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;23518479]No currency won't work because you do not understand how it works in real life, and how it won't translate into minecraft. Gold is actually worthless in minecraft, it can't be used for tools, it's not even that attractive, there's no reason to use it. Not only this, but you need to mandate the use of coins through force to every shopkeeper and every farmer etc, why would I give you my diamond pickaxe for 100 gold coins? The gold coins are worthless where the pickaxe isn't.
Take sigma's idea of communism or some form of trading with tools (I'll give you 4 iron pickaxes for that pig etc etc), just not currency.[/QUOTE]
This is kinda [IMG]http://www.facepunch.com/ads/rating/box.png[/IMG]..You're saying that golden coins are worthless, thats like saying real money is worthless :colbert:
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;23518479]No currency won't work because you do not understand how it works in real life, and how it won't translate into minecraft. Gold is actually worthless in minecraft, it can't be used for tools, it's not even that attractive, there's no reason to use it. Not only this, but you need to mandate the use of coins through force to every shopkeeper and every farmer etc, why would I give you my diamond pickaxe for 100 gold coins? The gold coins are worthless where the pickaxe isn't.
Take sigma's idea of communism or some form of trading with tools (I'll give you 4 iron pickaxes for that pig etc etc), just not currency.[/QUOTE]
Currency works because people accept it.
It's a very circular system and is very fragile, and it depends on everybody using it, but ingame if someone says "I'll give you 100 coins for 64 stone" and you know you can use those 100 coins to buy some pickaxes, are you really going to turn down the gold coins because they have no practical use?
[editline]07:52PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Espio;23520069]No currency won't work because you do not understand how it works in minecraft, and how it won't translate into real life. Dollars and pounds are actually worthless in real life, they can't be used as a resource or to make things, its not even that attractive, there's no reason to use it. Not only this, but you need to make sure all shopkeepers use them, why would i give you my diamond pickaxe for £500,000? Money is worthless whereas my pickaxe isn't .
i hope i proved a point.
[/QUOTE]
You proved a point in an excellent way and I now love you.
[IMG]http://cdn.solidfiles.net//i/890e.png[/IMG]
Small part of my upcoming city.
[QUOTE=Espio;23520069]No currency won't work because you do not understand how it works in minecraft, and how it won't translate into real life. Dollars and pounds are actually worthless in real life, they can't be used as a resource or to make things, its not even that attractive, there's no reason to use it. Not only this, but you need to make sure all shopkeepers use them, why would i give you my diamond pickaxe for £500,000? Money is worthless whereas my pickaxe isn't .
i hope i proved a point.
Also will no-one understand that trading items exists in real life too and its normally called bartering or something similar, and i believe we already agree'd that we could trade items
(i.e. if i've been mining all day and someone else has been woodcutting, i could trade 64 cobblestone for around 50 wood(sorry but cobblestone is more common))
And as pagekind i believe we should all either agree on how much each item is worth or let individual sellers decide their own prices.[/QUOTE]
Legal Tender works in real life because everyone places value in it. It won't work in minecraft because nobody places value on coins, only items, in the game..
I think Currency will only work if there is NPC traders who sell rare or trader only items.
I vote the city should be Communist
[QUOTE=FreddiRox!;23521484]I think Currency will only work if there is NPC traders who sell rare or trader only items.[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly. Game currency only works when there are trader NPCs who use it. Since ideally there wouldn't be any trader npcs, we should just barter.
We could tie the gold / coins price to diamonds?
Currency is a bad idea, because people can pretty much get everything the other guy can get by doing it themselves, it can all be done in a very short amount of time. The only thing I could even see worth trading is diamonds.
Or iron, or other proper goods.
I wouldn't go to mine to mine coal or stone to get materials for building, when you can go to the market and buy them.
Currency and trade will work fine in cities, but not so fine in countryside.
[QUOTE=Glent;23521818]Yes, exactly. Game currency only works when there are trader NPCs who use it. Since ideally there wouldn't be any trader npcs, we should just barter.[/QUOTE]
Notch has considered the possibility of NPC civilisations that you can trade with.
It'd be cool to dig underground and suddenly find Khazad-dum and a huge population of friendly NPCs that you can either befriend or slaughter :black101:
[QUOTE=Espio;23520069]No currency won't work because you do not understand how it works in minecraft, and how it won't translate into real life. Dollars and pounds are actually worthless in real life, they can't be used as a resource or to make things, its not even that attractive, there's no reason to use it. Not only this, but you need to make sure all shopkeepers use them, why would i give you my diamond pickaxe for £500,000? Money is worthless whereas my pickaxe isn't .
i hope i proved a point.
Also will no-one understand that trading items exists in real life too and its normally called bartering or something similar, and i believe we already agree'd that we could trade items
(i.e. if i've been mining all day and someone else has been woodcutting, i could trade 64 cobblestone for around 50 wood(sorry but cobblestone is more common))
And as pagekind i believe we should all either agree on how much each item is worth or let individual sellers decide their own prices.[/QUOTE]
No you're right. In real life paper money is worthless, however the value is ensured by the state. When there was a gold standard, the value of currency was based upon the gold deposits that each nation had. But in the US, when you removed the gold standard and the massive economic problem that ensued, your currency ceased to be backed with gold.
Historically, gold was used as coinage because it was reasonably rare, and became a symbol of status, and thus gained value because people gave it value. Even though it's an entirely unremarkable metal in terms of strength/durability, it's still valued highly despite...itself.
However, Minecraft is not real life and thus your comparison is flawed. While the dollar and the pound are both backed up by respective states, each attempting to convince others of economic strength and stability, the minecraft gold would have to be backed up with actual gold, much like a gold standard. Not only this, but if FP city crumbles into various states or some bollocks like that, you're now stuck with a pocket of useless coinage where tools may have been more useful.
Bartering is so much simpler, and it doesn't require extensive mining of a frankly useless material. What do you pay the miner who digs up the gold? Gold coins, brilliant, he might as well not exchange them.
Not only that, but infinite maps means infinite possiblity for gold like EVERYTHING else, while gold in real life relies on relative rarety. What you're suggesting here people is the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy idea of using leaves as money.
Also everyone saying that real life money with worthless is untrue. As said, it's backed up by nations and deposits. The money itself is worthless, but what it symbolizes isn't.
Ugh, we [U]need[/U] currency because it makes trade much more convenient, and if you don't want to use money you don't have to. I'm just going to repost my economic plan. It addresses some of these concerns.
[QUOTE=SamPerson123;23508164]I am for a gold based economy. It would be best to have a currency in addition to bartering, because it can make some transactions a bit easier. Gold would be good as a currency because it is rare and useless, so any fluctuations from finding more or using some up would be small and easy to correct.
My plan for starting up the economy would be to cheat in a whole bunch of gold, which the government can pay the citizens to build up the city. The gold then sort of represents the work that was required to earn it, and gives the people a good supply, meaning that trade can begin relatively quickly.
Should gold become too plentiful, then the government can cheat in resources to sell for the gold, reducing the supply. If there isn't enough gold, then the government can make more jobs.[/QUOTE]
Major problem with barter is:
People don't accept everything you offer to them.
And it will be inpossible to trade with guy who owns everything (he/she needs).
[QUOTE=oskutin;23522426]Major problem with barter is:
People don't accept everything you offer to them.
And it will be inpossible to trade with guy who owns everything (he/she needs).[/QUOTE]
If they have everything they need, why the hell would they want even more useless coins.
[editline]09:26PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=SamPerson123;23522344]Ugh, we [U]need[/U] currency because it makes trade much more convenient, and if you don't want to use money you don't have to. I'm just going to repost my economic plan. It addresses some of these concerns.[/QUOTE]
But it doesn't. It complicates the system for no reason. Literally, you guys have no need for a medium of trade, because you're not going to be doing that high level transactions.
As I said, what are you going to pay the miner who mined the gold? How are you going to distribute the coins at the start?
Whwn they run out of something, they can buy more :v:
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;23522488]If they have everything they need, why the hell would they want even more useless coins.
[editline]09:26PM[/editline]
But it doesn't. It complicates the system for no reason. Literally, you guys have no need for a medium of trade, because you're not going to be doing that high level transactions.
As I said, what are you going to pay the miner who mined the gold? How are you going to distribute the coins at the start?[/QUOTE]
The gold will not be mined, the server admin will cheat in gold, similar to how a government prints currency. The gold will be distributed by paying people for labor.
[QUOTE=SamPerson123;23522638]The gold will not be mined, the server admin will cheat in gold, similar to how a government issues currency. The gold will be distributed by paying people for labor.[/QUOTE]
And how does he decide how much needs to created? And doesn't simply "creating" gold absolutely defy the point of survival? I thought it was about going to a patch of land and scratching out an existance from what you can find, a brilliant concept.
The only reason I can see coinage being fun and necessary is interstate trade, talking about wood transfers in the hundreds etc. Don't burden the citizen with unnecessary weights.
To be honest, when you've created a system that requires a server admin to magically bring shit into existence to sustain it, you've created an overly complicated system.
[QUOTE=Espio;23520069]No currency won't work because you do not understand how it works in minecraft, and how it won't translate into real life. Dollars and pounds are actually worthless in real life, they can't be used as a resource or to make things, its not even that attractive, there's no reason to use it. Not only this, but you need to make sure all shopkeepers use them, why would i give you my diamond pickaxe for £500,000? Money is worthless whereas my pickaxe isn't .
i hope i proved a point.
Also will no-one understand that trading items exists in real life too and its normally called bartering or something similar, and i believe we already agree'd that we could trade items
(i.e. if i've been mining all day and someone else has been woodcutting, i could trade 64 cobblestone for around 50 wood(sorry but cobblestone is more common))
And as pagekind i believe we should all either agree on how much each item is worth or let individual sellers decide their own prices.[/QUOTE]
You nun, currency is a representation of a valuable metal, EG Gold.
The gold should be cheated at begining of the server and rest is mined.
I know I don't really visit this thread very often but I gotta say, I find Cloak Raider's argument to be better. Creating gold out of nowhere would defeat the purpose of Survival, and mining the gold for currency is just illogical because the miners might as well just keep it all to themselves. Bartering is the best we're going to get at the stage of development in which Minecraft currently resides.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;23522699]And how does he decide how much needs to created? And doesn't simply "creating" gold absolutely defy the point of survival? I thought it was about going to a patch of land and scratching out an existance from what you can find, a brilliant concept.
The only reason I can see coinage being fun and necessary is interstate trade, talking about wood transfers in the hundreds etc. Don't burden the citizen with unnecessary weights.[/QUOTE]
The government would create gold, which is a pretty much useless material, and nothing else. All other materials would actually be worked for. It doesn't really matter how much he creates, as long as it devalues gold enough so that it can actually be used.
How will we locate ourselves again? Are we going to be an inland city or one by water?
[QUOTE=DanRatherman;23523244]How will we locate ourselves again? Are we going to be an inland city or one by water?[/QUOTE]
I think that it would be good to be by water. It has natural defense on one side, and lets you use boats.
Near water, please.
You could have it a bit from the shore, and then have an awesome tunnel system that you can boat down into the sea. (Sewers)
[QUOTE=Guniv;23523436]problem is that going downslope you gain speed, and if you hit the side of the sewer your boat is over[/QUOTE]
I think only if you hit it head on, you're screwed, since he made boats stronger and don't instantly break.
Entirely unrelated to the conversation at hand, How about we create a sort of "death jail" to make death actually something to avoid? When someone is killed, they respawn in the jail, and the admin can free them at the beginning of the next day. The only problem with this is that new users to the server will have to wait for the admin to set them free....
So, unless this process could be automated and "spawn" locations are different from "REspawn" locations, this actually sounds like a worse idea the more I type about it.
We should just have jails that admins can summon people into. Would be much easier
Yep, with that other system i would ragequit :D
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