Leveling Up and What I think about it - Games

Its like age. You kick a low level in the face. Your kicking a child in the face. You kick a high level in the face. Your kicking your, somehow strong and powerful powerhouse grandfather in the face.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25666769]And in the case of Killing Floor, leveling up didn't mean too much if you and your team didn't stick together. Thread title should be, "RPG Elements and What I Think"[/QUOTE] Unless you are on suicidal difficulty, high level players don't need to stick together. Medic at top level can speed around the levels and solo easily if he is good. Top level sharpshooter is nearly invincible if he can click on enemies' heads. Even support specialist and demolitions can do pretty great if they are all leveled up.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25666601]In reference to open-world games, "Later in the Game" would be the player going a little too far out of bounds and reaching a point where his current skill and equipment could no longer handle the challenges there.[/QUOTE] As a player, your 'Skill' doesn't magically increase. When you play a shooter like Half Life 2 you don't exactly get significantly better at killing dudes with shit over the course of your game. You learn the ropes, sure, but you don't go from missing every shot to headshotting everyone with pinpoint accuracy. Your notion of 'skill' is stupidly abstract, that's why RPGs have a clearly defined XP system. And your system of finding newer and better equipment is very similar to just levelling up. And what's to sop you from finding incredibly overpowered equipment? A levelling system, that's what.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25666737]You have MMOs, which have almost no story. They exist for the levelling, and the whole objective of the game is to level up. That is bad. You have traditional Singleplayer RPGs like Dragon age, which traditionally have a very good story, a robust levelling system, and combat based entirely on your skills. THe game is generally evenly split between the story and the skill based combat. This is good, if done right. You have action RPGs like Fallout 3, where the combat is more dependent on player input, but there are still RPG elements which determine your character effectiveness with speech, weapons, bartering etc. This is good, but the balance between shooting and RPG elements needs to be right otherwise you end up with something like Alpha Protocol's combat. And you finally have shooters with RPG elements like Bioshock (Maybe, though it isn't multiplayer), Bad Company 2, Call of Duty, etc. The unlocks exist to provide an addictive edge to keep people playing, not to make some characters more powerful than others. If some weapons are undisputedly more powerful than others, then that is just a sign of poor balance. These can't really be classed as RPGs, they just use the XP system to provide a sense of progression.[/QUOTE] The one thing that bugged me the most about Fallout 3's level system is the skills relating to certain weapon types. I can kind of understand strength, health, carrying capacity and all that other stuff. But when it comes to equipment the player uses, I think that should be entirely depend on the equipment itself.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25666769] Thread title should be, "RPG Elements in Non-RPGs and What I Think about them"[/QUOTE] Exactly. Trying to apply the progression of linear shooters to open world games/proper RPGs is frankly retarded and any attempt to do so is retarded because [b]RPGs do not work that way, not even if you like shooters better[/b].

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25666909]Exactly. Trying to apply the progression of linear shooters to open world games/proper RPGs is frankly retarded and any attempt to do so is retarded because [b]RPGs do not work that way, not even if you like shooters better[/b].[/QUOTE] But STALKER is open-world and with very little RPG related traits, no leveling up or anything. It seems to work out just fine.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25666862]The one thing that bugged me the most about Fallout 3's level system is the skills relating to certain weapon types. I can kind of understand strength, health, carrying capacity and all that other stuff. But when it comes to equipment the player uses, I think that should be entirely depend on the equipment itself.[/QUOTE] You learn how to use guns better as the game goes on, that's all the explanation you need. As to how it somehow effects the damage that your bullets do, it's meant to provide a sense of progression like an RPG should, a function that is above and beyond making a whole lot of sense.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25666967]You learn how to use guns better as the game goes on, that's all the explanation you need. As to how it somehow effects the damage that your bullets do, it's meant to provide a sense of progression like an RPG should, a function that is above and beyond making a whole lot of sense.[/QUOTE] :saddowns: So instead of questioning why, I should just accept it an move on? Sure, why not. Seems easier to do.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25666957]But STALKER is open-world and with very little RPG related traits, no leveling up or anything. It seems to work out just fine.[/QUOTE] I've played STALKER, it's most definitely not open world. There are clearly defined areas where you can and can't go, blocked by impenetrable fences. STALKER works because while it seems open world, it is also fairly linear, you go deeper and deeper into the zone, encountering better enemies and better equipment.

Well, just on more thing before my whole theory has been shot to shit: If I do have an RPG hybrid, I think the skill with something should be based on its use, and not how many points you decide to plunk down on it when you level up. [editline]26th October 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25667025]I've played STALKER, it's most definitely not open world. There are clearly defined areas where you can and can't go, blocked by impenetrable fences. STALKER works because while it seems open world, it is also fairly linear, you go deeper and deeper into the zone, encountering better enemies and better equipment.[/QUOTE] You can go anywhere that exists in the game at any time, pretty much. Except for the segments near the end that are entirely RUN TO THE FINISH AND SHOOT SHIT IN A HALLWAY. [editline]26th October 2010[/editline] It's open world in that I can go to any of the areas and back again as I please. If that's not open world I don't know what is.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25666993]:saddowns: So instead of questioning why, I should just accept it an move on? .[/QUOTE] Yes. For example, how can my character in dragon age learn how to persuade people better by killing tons of dudes? It's a strange system, but it's one that doesn't break gameplay and makes for an enjoyable game. Alternatives exist, like Oblivion's skill system, but they often have more flaws than the good old XP system, for example given enough time in Oblvion I could boost my blades skill to 100 while remaining at level one, making me a juggernaut in a world of piss-weak rats, since enemies and loot depend on your level, rather than some complex, weird (and easily fallible) aggregate of all your skills. [editline]27th October 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667050] You can go anywhere that exists in the game at any time, pretty much. Except for the segments near the end that are entirely RUN TO THE FINISH AND SHOOT SHIT IN A HALLWAY. [editline]26th October 2010[/editline] It's open world in that I can go to any of the areas and back again as I please. If that's not open world I don't know what is.[/QUOTE] If I'm not mistaken that's more hub-based than open world.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667050]Well, just on more thing before my whole theory has been shot to shit: If I do have an RPG hybrid, I think the skill with something should be based on its use, and not how many points you decide to plunk down on it when you level up. [/QUOTE] But if someone is throwing points into a weapon they use it accomplishes the same thing. You're just splitting hairs now.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25667136]Yes. For example, how can my character in dragon age learn how to persuade people better by killing tons of dudes? It's a strange system, but it's one that doesn't break gameplay and makes for an enjoyable game. Alternatives exist, like Oblivion's skill system, but they often have more flaws than the good old XP system, for example given enough time in Oblvion I could boost my blades skill to 100 while remaining at level one, making me a juggernaut in a world of piss-weak rats, since enemies and loot depend on your level, rather than some weir aggregate of all your skills. [editline]27th October 2010[/editline] If I'm not mistaken that's more hub-based than open world.[/QUOTE] I mean, there are areas where one can not go, but the areas that you go at some time in the game can be gone to at any time. [editline]26th October 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Janus Vesta;25667203]But if someone is throwing points into a weapon they use it accomplishes the same thing. You're just splitting hairs now.[/QUOTE] Let's say I suck with a certain weapon; a rocket launcher. So I pick up my pistol and kill people with it. Then when I level up I drop all my points into rocket launcher. Something that I hadn't even practiced with I am now much better in it because the number says so.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667050]Well, just on more thing before my whole theory has been shot to shit: If I do have an RPG hybrid, I think the skill with something should be based on its use, and not how many points you decide to plunk down on it when you level up. [/QUOTE] Oblivion had this system, and it arguably caused more problems than it fixed. And there weren't even that many problems to fix to start with.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667050]Well, just on more thing before my whole theory has been shot to shit: If I do have an RPG hybrid, I think the skill with something should be based on its use, and not how many points you decide to plunk down on it when you level up. [/QUOTE] Oblivion has that system. FUCKING NINJAS

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25667320]Oblivion had this system, and it arguably caused more problems than it fixed. And there weren't even that many problems to fix to start with.[/QUOTE] I could see how it could lead to problems, as some weapon types just aren't as practical to use.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667223] Let's say I suck with a certain weapon; a rocket launcher. So I pick up my pistol and kill people with it. Then when I level up I drop all my points into rocket launcher. Something that I hadn't even practiced with I am now much better in it because the number says so.[/QUOTE] But that doesn't effect you, most people pt points into weapons they use. Though skill should be more general. Not super specialised like Alpha Protocol. How are shotguns, assault rifles and SMGs considered so fundementally different that if I use shotguns I can't tell the shooty end of a SMG?

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667223] Let's say I suck with a certain weapon; a rocket launcher. So I pick up my pistol and kill people with it. Then when I level up I drop all my points into rocket launcher. Something that I hadn't even practiced with I am now much better in it because the number says so.[/QUOTE] This obviously doesn't make much sense to you, but it all stems from the completely stat based combat of traditional RPGs (d20 system, saving throws, shit like that). In this completely stat based combat situation you're not going to use the weapon you're shit with because you won't so shit with it. It's all about building a character, then playing to that characters' strengths, and doesn't make much sense in the context of shooters, because it originally wasn't supposed to. It's an illogical system for shooters, but it still mostly works if stripped down to the bare minimum (dice rolls in action RPGs don't make much sense, look at morrowind's combat) of, say, skills determining damage. [editline]27th October 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Janus Vesta;25667365]But that doesn't effect you, most people pt points into weapons they use. Though skill should be more general. Not super specialised like Alpha Protocol. How are shotguns, assault rifles and SMGs considered so fundementally different that if I use shotguns I can't tell the shooty end of a SMG?[/QUOTE] Alpha Protocol's combat was an example of how to do this badly. The shooting was too stat based, but it felt like it shouldn't be. The whole game felt kinda stiff because it was trying to be high octane fun and gun action while still holding onto a lot of the RPG stats, and it fell flat on its face most of the time. Nevertheless, I liked Alpha protocol, just not because of the combat.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25667447]This obviously doesn't make much sense to you, but it all stems from the completely stat based combat of traditional RPGs (d20 system, saving throws, shit like that). In this completely stat based combat situation you're not going to use the weapon you're shit with because you won't so shit with it. It's all about building a character, then playing to that characters' strengths. It doesn't make much sense in the context of shooters, because it originally wasn't supposed to. It's an illogical system for shooters, but it still mostly works if stripped down to the bare minimum (dice roll in action RPGs don't make much sense, look at morrowind's combat) of, say, skills determining damage.[/QUOTE] That's why I'm fine with it in Dorf Fort's adventure mode, something where I don't even have the option directly influence the battle, such as aiming for the head with a mouse and knowing I'll land a blow. It works because that's the only input I get. I don't really enjoy having some secondary factor come into play when I can act on it myself. [editline]26th October 2010[/editline] In the case of FPS-RPGs, I can take all the careful aim I want, but in the end it can be heavily influenced by some number that I didn't spend enough time raising by killing bugs.

[QUOTE=SomeFaggot;25667546]That's why I'm fine with it in Dorf Fort's adventure mode, something where I don't even have the option directly influence the battle, such as aiming for the head with a mouse and knowing I'll land a blow. It works because that's the only input I get. I don't really enjoy having some secondary factor come into play when I can act on it myself.[/QUOTE] It's a flawed system, I admit that, but for the most part it works. If you don't like Fallout 3's combat because it doesn't make much sense, try playing Morrowind, now there's a combat system that doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;25667605]It's a flawed system, I admit that, but for the most part it works. If you don't like Fallout 3's combat because it doesn't make much sense, try playing Morrowind, now there's a combat system that doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.[/QUOTE] Tried it. For me the combat was nightmarish, from what I've heard the other stuff is okay. [editline]26th October 2010[/editline] Anyways, I've argued about all there is to argue, my pet peeves. Monk is quite the debater, and I am not. I have nothing else to add.

I liked the way Demon's Souls' stats and leveling worked. The whole thing made sense as a part of the world, and just having higher numbers doesn't mean you will always win against a weaker opponent.

[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exercise.png[/img] Think about it. It makes sense.

When my friend says leveling up, he means getting high... Not sure how he came up with it.

Leveling isn't how good you are, but how strong you are. Somebody who plays more should have a stronger character because you have put more effort into it.

I think I'm a bit late for the discussion but... As you level up, you get more access to things you previously never knew existed. (Weapons, areas, quests, skills...) A lot of people play MMOs just to level up, because they get a sense of accomplishment and excitement when they do. It's often when we find the game gets too repititive or it takes too long to level up is when we quit it.

I feel the OP is getting overly generalised. In RPGs it's good, but I feel in other games, such as RTSes and FPSes where skill is supposed to be the main factor in who wins or loses an encounter, permanent bonuses (either unlocks or just plain skill upgrades) for doing certain tasks (cap the flag 5 times in one round and you permanently get +10 hp on any server) isn't fair. In the context of an RPG however, I think it fits and is an important part of gameplay.