[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275463]To be fair, Vayne and Trynd extended so well into the late game that it became extremely hard to counter them.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's a fair argument though.
Given equal farm and free lane time most champions will rape late game.
Give Annie free farm all game and she'll destroy you. Give Veigar farm and he will Nuke you in 2 shots.
I understand they are very potent champions, notably being high AD champs, but maybe we should question why they extend so well, and its because people are idiots; not because they are OP.
Here's my strategy for defeating Tryndamere. Kite, Exhaust, Focus, Ignite as Ulti wears off. GJ.
Here's my strategy for defeating Vayne. Exhaust, Focus.
but vayne was op
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275485]I don't think that's a fair argument though.
Given equal farm and free lane time most champions will rape late game.
Give Annie free farm all game and she'll destroy you. Give Veigar farm and he will Nuke you in 2 shots.
I understand they are very potent champions, notably being high AD champs, but maybe we should question why they extend so well, and its because people are idiots; not because they are OP.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but Trynd and Vayne are autoattackers. You can't just pop a silence on them or CC them to completely interrupt their nuke, and most high-damage AP champs are "drop a nuke on someone, suddenly you're on cooldowns and can't do a whole lot"
[QUOTE=Dr.Scrake;34275489]but vayne was op[/QUOTE]
Enlighten me.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275499]Yeah, but Trynd and Vayne are autoattackers. You can't just pop a silence on them or CC them to completely interrupt their nuke, and most high-damage AP champs are "drop a nuke on someone, suddenly you're on cooldowns and can't do a whole lot"[/QUOTE]
You can CC them. That's the point. Exhaust, stuns, slows, whatever. Most mages are going to drop a nuke thats the point, autoattackers don't drop all their damage in a nuke either. I don't understand the distinction here.
If you silence an AP mage then they can't do shit, same way if you stun an AD carry.
And the fact that your dropping nukes means you have to have high cooldowns for balance. Sustained Damage AP don't suffer from this problem as their damage is sustained. I don't really get what your point is.
if vayne wasn't op why was she in every single game and picked over ANY other carry
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275432]Suddenly, another Teemo skin[/QUOTE]
lol no
Annie skin obviously
Vayne was a lot like Skarner and GP in high ELO, if she wasn't banned she was almost always on either team
[QUOTE=ventnor;34275532]lol no
Annie skin obviously[/QUOTE]
no, it's urgot caitlyn skin obviously
with even bigger boobs
[QUOTE=Dr.Scrake;34275519]if vayne wasn't op why was she in every single game and picked over ANY other carry[/QUOTE]
Because she has a good skill set and farms well? You can't just say "X is OP because lots of people play X".
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275533]Vayne was a lot like Skarner and GP in high ELO, if she wasn't banned she was almost always on either team[/QUOTE]
Again I don't understand how this argument = Vayne/Skarner/Tryndamere being OP.
Every champ could be classed as OP if they are played well.
Tryndamere is useless if you have a fucking idiot playing him.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275546]Because she has a good skill set and farms well? You can't just say "X is OP because lots of people play X".[/QUOTE]
Then like someone just said why was she top ban?
the vayne thing must've been restricted to high elo because honestly I rarely saw a vayne outside of freeweeks.
[QUOTE=Dr.Scrake;34275553]Then like someone just said why was she top ban?[/QUOTE]
Because she has a good skill set and farms well. It's not a neccessary fact that she was OP. It could be that everyone appreciated her model and skin. You have no idea why she was top ban.
Kassadin is often top ban. Is he OP? No, he's just fucking impossible to stop if you're an idiot. Same as Tryndamere, and Akali for that matter.
Plenty of people say Akali is so op!!!! Why!!!
You buy an Oracles and "an enemy has been slain"
EDIT:
Morgana, also top ban. Why? Because she has a rape spell that farms amazingly and has a get out of jail free skill to stop ganks. Is she OP? Maybe, but she's not getting a nerf.
It's just Riot caving to idiots spamming the forums.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275546]Again I don't understand how this argument = Vayne/Skarner/Tryndamere being OP.
Every champ could be classed as OP if they are played well.
Tryndamere is useless if you have a fucking idiot playing him.[/QUOTE]
Strictly speaking, champions are picked above others more frequently because, well, they're better than their alternatives.
Kassadin is banned because he can just ult and completely destroy. He's harder to counter than other AP champs. Tryndamere has one of the best ults in the game. Morgana has a spellshield that counters everything.
There are certain parts of a champion that are simply just obnoxious - but some are more obnoxious than others.
her model is ugly, she's fucking boring to play as, graves has a way better and good model.
and corki farms well too, graves can also farm well, anyone can farm well, that's no god damn excuse to ban someone
Yorick can farm the shit out of top and no one plays him.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275596]Strictly speaking, champions are picked above others more frequently because, well, they're better than their alternatives.
Kassadin is banned because he can just ult and completely destroy. He's harder to counter than other AP champs. Tryndamere has one of the best ults in the game. Morgana has a spellshield that counters everything.
There are certain parts of a champion that are simply just obnoxious - but some are more obnoxious than others.[/QUOTE]
I think there is a difference between being OP and better than an alternative.
I personally played Vayne purely for her skillset. I thought she was good to farm with, good to manouever but obviously extremely squishy when focused. I can't count the times i've raped someone with Vayne, and neither can I count the amount of times I've been insta gibbed under focus.
Kassadin is easily counterable by buying some Magic resist and focusing him. It seems that people complain about how OP champs are, especially pubbies, whilst they have base armour and base MR, trying to stop a Kassadin with 300ap and a void staff from raping them.
I'd guess around 70% of the people that play the game are retarded and don't understand how to counter with items or how to focus. (I think everyone knows this is true)
[QUOTE=Dr.Scrake;34275614]her model is ugly, she's fucking boring to play as, graves has a way better and good model.
and corki farms well too, graves can also farm well, anyone can farm well, that's no god damn excuse to ban someone
Yorick can farm the shit out of top and no one plays him.[/QUOTE]
Actually I disagree, as Morgana is a consistent top ban, proof that people ban on the strength of the farm.
You just dislike Vayne that's fine, but she wasn't OP and is now probably even squishier than before, given the nerfs she got.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275636]I think there is a difference between being OP and better than an alternative.
I personally played Vayne purely for her skillset. I thought she was good to farm with, good to manouever but obviously extremely squishy when focused. I can't count the times i've raped someone with Vayne, and neither can I count the amount of times I've been insta gibbed under focus.[/QUOTE]
So why don't they nerf Tristana then? She's similar to Vayne because she can farm VERY well, has an AMAZING escape and an ult that can desynchronize an entire enemy team in a teamfight.
[editline]18th January 2012[/editline]
Either way it's probably bullshit that Riot nerfed "because of complaints on the forums."
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275636]I think there is a difference between being OP and better than an alternative.
I personally played Vayne purely for her skillset. I thought she was good to farm with, good to manouever but obviously extremely squishy when focused. I can't count the times i've raped someone with Vayne, and neither can I count the amount of times I've been insta gibbed under focus.
Actually I disagree, as Morgana is a consistent top ban, proof that people ban on the strength of the farm.
You just dislike Vayne that's fine, but she wasn't OP and is now probably even squishier than before, given the nerfs she got.[/QUOTE]
morgana is banned because she counters casters on mid, same as kassadin, not because of how much she can farm.
Kassadin can't really farm a shit on mid but he IS going to counter anyone on mid, so he's banned
Yeah, in lane, not a lot of things can counter a Vayne + Soraka lane, not a lot can counter LeBlanc, Kass, Morgana, Trynd ganks are scary and a smart Trynd can solotop well against other melees, etc.
P.S. AP Tristana is viable if you can get 600 AP, found out in a bot game.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275656]So why don't they nerf Tristana then? She's similar to Vayne because she can farm VERY well, has an AMAZING escape and an ult that can desynchronize an entire enemy team in a teamfight.
[editline]18th January 2012[/editline]
Either way it's probably bullshit that Riot nerfed "because of complaints on the forums."[/QUOTE]
Tristana doesn't need a nerf, she's balanced? I wasn't asking for anyone to be nerfed. My argument is that a large percentage of the playerbase knows distinctly ZERO about how to counter another champion. Focus, items, early game ganking/zoning whatever.
Most people just keep following their build from MOBAFIRE or SoloMid and then cry about how X,Y is OP.
[QUOTE=Dr.Scrake;34275677]morgana is banned because she counters casters on mid, same as kassadin, not because of how much she can farm.
Kassadin can't really farm a shit on mid but he IS going to counter anyone on mid, so he's banned[/QUOTE]
I feel Morgana's farming ability and her ridiculous ungankability is what gets her banned. Where's her nerf?
Kassadin just needs to hit level 6, get blue, and he can start raping. To counter him, you bully him in lane, stop his very limited farm, poke and zone. Shit on him as much as possible, and if he still starts snowballing; stop walking around the jungle getting ganked 1v1, buy some wards and a Null Magic Mantle.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275699]Yeah, in lane, not a lot of things can counter a Vayne + Soraka lane, not a lot can counter LeBlanc, Kass, Morgana, Trynd ganks are scary and a smart Trynd can solotop well against other melees, etc.
P.S. AP Tristana is viable if you can get 600 AP, found out in a bot game.[/QUOTE]
Not many things could counter a Ashe Soraka lane. What's your point? Nerf all carries? Trynd is fairly easy to deal with early if you are ranged, if not then yes I agree his is very hard to deal with, but for me, no harder than someone like Garen or Yorick or GP for example. They each have strong points. GP has a NOPE.avi spell to stop ganks. Yorick can basically tower dive forever, has ridiculous sustain and good farm, Garen is fucking crazy and does crazy damage and takes very little back, then regens in the bush. Maybe we should nerf them all?
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275707]Tristana doesn't need a nerf, she's balanced? I wasn't asking for anyone to be nerfed. My argument is that a large percentage of the playerbase knows distinctly ZERO about how to counter another champion. Focus, items, early game ganking/zoning whatever.
Most people just keep following their build from MOBAFIRE or SoloMid and then cry about how X,Y is OP.[/QUOTE]
Please describe an exact scenario where it's possible to counter a competent Vayne + Soraka lane.
Unless you have a mid and jungle gank simultaneously, it's very hard.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275699]Yeah, in lane, not a lot of things can counter a Vayne + Soraka lane, not a lot can counter LeBlanc, Kass, Morgana, Trynd ganks are scary and a smart Trynd can solotop well against other melees, etc.
P.S. AP Tristana is viable if you can get 600 AP, found out in a bot game.[/QUOTE]
ANYTHING is viable in bot games
[QUOTE=Flubadoo;34275747]ANYTHING is viable in bot games[/QUOTE]
Not true, I was losing 1v1 versus Soraka when I was trying AP Trist
It wasn't until I got Rabaddon's that I started coming back
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275739]Please describe an exact scenario where it's possible to counter a competent Vayne + Soraka lane.
Unless you have a mid and jungle gank simultaneously, it's very hard.[/QUOTE]
Sona Kogmaw?
Taric Tristana?
Taric Kog Maw?
Sona Ashe
Sona Graves
Are the players countering competent aswell? or not?
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275776]Sona Kogmaw?
Taric Tristana?
Taric Kog Maw?
Sona Ashe
Sona Graves
Are the players countering competent aswell? or not?[/QUOTE]
>Vayne tumbles out of every attempt to kill her ever and continues to farm until you start losing your lane
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275804]>Vayne tumbles out of every attempt to kill her ever and continues to farm until you start losing your lane[/QUOTE]
So remove all tumble like abilites from the game as they are OP?
> You poke Vayne, seeing she is squishy, you contine to trade pokes, disrupting her farm, stunning her and free hitting her until she is forced under her tower, where you ward the brush so you cannot be ganked and proceed to win lane.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;34275485]I don't think that's a fair argument though.
Given equal farm and free lane time most champions will rape late game.
Give Annie free farm all game and she'll destroy you. Give Veigar farm and he will Nuke you in 2 shots.
I understand they are very potent champions, notably being high AD champs, but maybe we should question why they extend so well, and its because people are idiots; not because they are OP.
Here's my strategy for defeating Tryndamere. Kite, Exhaust, Focus, Ignite as Ulti wears off. GJ.
Here's my strategy for defeating Vayne. Exhaust, Focus.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275804]>Vayne tumbles out of every attempt to kill her ever and continues to farm until you start losing your lane[/QUOTE]
oh shut up
[QUOTE=DjPebbles;34275836]You have no idea what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
Want to expand on that or are you just here to troll?
Was it that I stuck to his assumption that we give said Champion farm and exp, and that given their late game scaling compare them?
Or was it that you don't like getting raped by good Vayne/Trynda players and want to cry about it?
I never said it was OP I just said that she can easily get out of a gank
Besides, the new nerfs enforce smarter play, it's not like they were like "REMOVED SILVER BOLTS TRUE DAMAGE" or some game-changing shit.
I'm sick and tired of people complaining about "Riot nerfed X champ!" when it's shit like "Base movement speed reduced to 300 from 305"
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34275847]I never said it was OP I just said that she can easily get out of a gank
Besides, the new nerfs enforce smarter play, it's not like they were like "REMOVED SILVER BOLTS TRUE DAMAGE" or some game-changing shit.
I'm sick and tired of people complaining about "Riot nerfed X champ!" when it's shit like "Base movement speed reduced to 300 from 305"[/QUOTE]
That nerf was Caitlyns anyway, worst nerf ever.
So? Alot of champions can get out of a gank easily. In fact I can do it with anyone, by buying a ward and seeing the jungler coming towards my lane. If that doesn't work I can move away or stay under the tower.
Also, if we don't like people being able to get away from ganks we better nerf Jax and Lee Sin too, they can get away easily. Oh and nerf flash too.
I'm not complaining about the severity of nerfs, i'm complaining about their policy.
They blindly follow the community or who ever shouts the loudest every week. There are no rules, they don't seem to balance off one thing. One week they don't like someones sustain, next they don't have enough, (example being Shen, Skarner, Xin Zhao, Tryndamere, Evelyn, Twitch for numerous changes "reworks"). It just seems inconsistent and without a solid aim; And sometimes they decided "better nerf irelia".
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