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Blade mail is the sexiest item ever no lie.

You're right. Lets give it some more detail then. here's how silencer is not useless: mass silence Not a good enough reason to pick him up. The rest of his skills are not up to snuff. He's too soft and doesn't bring enough to a teamfight. here's how razor is not useless: steals damage from carry. Only if he can stay in range, but the carry can just run out, back in, and suddenly you have a hero with poor damage, poor stat growth, and no damage scaling when you could have had an actual carry. here's how bara is not useless: able to pub stomp effectively if the player isn't shit A strong early game but 100% vulnerable to CC and suffers without teammates to hold his enemies in place. Also damage scaling. The bash proc has an internal cooldown and the percent chance is low enough that it doesn't really count as a reliable disable. Empowering haste reaches its pinnacle when you hit 7 with boots. axe: effective pub jungle Not sure what this means. Axe brings almost nothing to a team that is playing seriously. He has NOTHING to make your team want to attack him with low str and damage scaling, and he can taunt so he spins for a couple seconds but then it's done and you go back to ignoring him. Most of the time you can pretend he doesn't exist in a teamfight and you'll just be 5v4ing. ursa: another effective pub jungle Still not sure what this means. lion: easiest support in the game that's able to effectively fuck over carries Sure, if he gets mid. bloodseeker: effective pub stomper A mechanic that does nothing in a teamfight and only helps him as a character. His silence is decent, but there are better alternatives for that and because it increases base damage it's not an effective cc against your enemy's carries. He NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS 2 or 3 kills at levels 6 and 7 to get farm and keep his enemies down in order to succeed. His farming mechanism is very dependent on him not getting bursted, and he has very poor damage scaling. yurnero: pub stomps, good players knows how to use his ward effectively Requires a teammate to hold enemies down for him before he's any good. This is a huge liability. Has built in magic immune, which is nice, but after it's down he's vulnerable to CC and has no real escape nor a survival mechanic. Crits are good but his don't really hit hard enough to make him compete with other hard carries. His ult loses power in a teamfight, which is bad bad bad for a carry. zeus: decent spammable harass with relatively low cooldowns Yes, but why would you want him mid rather than NS, AA, pugna, or any of the other strong mids? Pugna does more damage with nether ward while bringing more uitility to the team. He's not "useless" per say, just comparatively so. You suggested putting him in a sidelane. Why would this be a good idea? He has no CC so he can't support anyone, he has a shitty attack animation and damage so he can't carry, he has no escape so he can't solo. Where would you even put him? kunkka: wins teamfights with his ult Sure, if he can land it which is terrifyingly difficult against players with a brain. The ship takes like 3 seconds to land which gives players ample time to leave. PLUS it's really easy to bait the ship since he can't cast it while actually in the teamfight, he needs to cast it before coming in. Tidebringer is not a really good carry mechanic, and his riptide (i think) is hard to land.

so what you're saying is if the hero has no easy mode skills that either stuns for 3 seconds or does aoe burst damage, it's a shitty hero? smart.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268060]so what you're saying is if the hero has no easy mode skills that either stuns for 3 seconds or does aoe burst damage, it's a shitty hero? smart.[/QUOTE] No, I'm saying that if a hero has skills that are 1. Hard to land 2. Not beneficial to the team. 3. Doesn't disable. 4. Is performed better by another character. it's a shitty hero.

You are basically saying, all these heroes as good if the player is good? that's what we've been saying the whole time?

[QUOTE=Kirrimir;34268102]You are basically saying, all these heroes as good if the player is good? that's what we've been saying the whole time?[/QUOTE] No. I'm saying these heroes are bad.

[QUOTE=melonmonkey;34267852]You're right. Lets give it some more detail then. here's how silencer is not useless: mass silence Not a good enough reason to pick him up. The rest of his skills are not up to snuff. He's too soft and doesn't bring enough to a teamfight. here's how razor is not useless: steals damage from carry. [B]Only if he can stay in range[/B], but the carry can just run out, back in, and suddenly you have a hero with poor damage, poor stat growth, and no damage scaling when you could have had an actual carry. here's how bara is not useless: able to pub stomp effectively if the [B]player isn't shit[/B] A strong early game but 100% vulnerable to CC and suffers without teammates to hold his enemies in place. Also damage scaling. The bash proc has an internal cooldown and the percent chance is low enough that it doesn't really count as a reliable disable. Empowering haste reaches its pinnacle when you hit 7 with boots. axe: effective pub jungle Not sure what this means. Axe brings almost nothing to a team that is playing seriously. He has NOTHING to make your team want to attack him with low str and damage scaling, and he can taunt so he spins for a couple seconds but then it's done and you go back to ignoring him. Most of the time you can pretend he doesn't exist in a teamfight and you'll just be 5v4ing. ursa: another effective pub jungle Still not sure what this means. lion: easiest support in the game that's able to effectively fuck over carries Sure, if he gets mid. bloodseeker: effective pub stomper A mechanic that does nothing in a teamfight and only helps him as a character. His silence is decent, but there are better alternatives for that and because it increases base damage it's not an effective cc against your enemy's carries. He NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS 2 or 3 kills at levels 6 and 7 to get farm and keep his enemies down in order to succeed. His farming mechanism is very dependent on him not getting bursted, and he has very poor damage scaling. yurnero: pub stomps, [B]good players knows how to use his ward effectively[/B] Requires a teammate to hold enemies down for him before he's any good. This is a huge liability. Has built in magic immune, which is nice, but after it's down he's vulnerable to CC and has no real escape nor a survival mechanic. Crits are good but his don't really hit hard enough to make him compete with other hard carries. His ult loses power in a teamfight, which is bad bad bad for a carry. zeus: decent spammable harass with relatively low cooldowns Yes, but why would you want him mid rather than NS, AA, pugna, or any of the other strong mids? Pugna does more damage with nether ward while bringing more uitility to the team. He's not "useless" per say, just comparatively so. You suggested putting him in a sidelane. Why would this be a good idea? He has no CC so he can't support anyone, he has a shitty attack animation and damage so he can't carry, he has no escape so he can't solo. Where would you even put him? kunkka: wins teamfights with his ult Sure, [B]if he can land it [/B]which is terrifyingly difficult against players with a brain. The ship takes like 3 seconds to land which gives players ample time to leave. PLUS it's really easy to bait the ship since he can't cast it while actually in the teamfight, he needs to cast it before coming in. Tidebringer is not a really good carry mechanic, and his riptide (i think) is hard to land.[/QUOTE] Silencer: You are just plain wrong, all of his skills are amazing. Razer: This is part of the skill of playing him. skill = good player Lion: Insanely good in lane with any hero, i really don't see why you think he needs to be mid. basically everything i bolded is where you said you need to be good to win basically

[QUOTE=melonmonkey;34268135]No. I'm saying these heroes are bad.[/QUOTE] lol let me guess, you're basing all of your shitty assumptions on the tier list of heroes most professionals pick/ban in competitive games aren't you.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268245]lol let me guess, you're basing all of your shitty assumptions on the tier list of heroes most professionals pick/ban in competitive games aren't you.[/QUOTE] No, I'm basing my assumptions on logic that I listed in my post.

[url]http://esfiworld.com/dota2/feature/dota-2-competitive-hero-tier-list-january-2012[/url] oh look how many of the heroes you listed are all in tier 4 or 5: [b]8 of them not including silencer and bara[/b] [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] also thanks to kirrimir he just pointed out that you still have that dumb "every game is a pro game" mindset.

[QUOTE=Kirrimir;34268243]Silencer: You are just plain wrong, all of his skills are amazing. Razer: This is part of the skill of playing him. skill = good player Lion: Insanely good in lane with any hero, i really don't see why you think he needs to be mid. basically everything i bolded is where you said you need to be good to win basically[/QUOTE] Silencer is not a good hero. He can fuck up specific heroes, but when you don't have heroes that are hurt by his aura is is disastrously bad. Razor scales poorly, does poor damage, and your enemies will disable you while your carry runs away. Lion is not a good in a sidelane. Without being higher level than his enemies he cannot be an effective support. His abilites scale too much with levels and are too poor at lower levels for him to compare with any of the standard dual lane supports.

Is there anyone with more cc than Rhasta that's currently in game?

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268270][url]http://esfiworld.com/dota2/feature/dota-2-competitive-hero-tier-list-january-2012[/url] oh look how many of the heroes you listed are all in tier 4 or 5: [b]8 of them not including silencer and bara[/b] [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] also thanks to kirrimir he just pointed out that you still have that dumb "every game is a pro game" mindset.[/QUOTE] I explained my logic. I did not link you a tier list, I explained why these heroes are bad. Just because my logic agrees with that of the pros does not mean I just read a tier list. Stop trying to do this. [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=l l;34268350]Is there anyone with more cc than rhasta that's currently in game?[/QUOTE] Debatably ES. wall can be an 8 second disable for their whole team

here's the problem with your logic: [b]you're not a pro player[/b] stop acting and stop trying to play like one, you're playing in pub games. [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] there's a difference between heroes viable in professional games due to the amount of teamwork, and the heroes viable in pub games because of how little communication there is on the enemy team, hence [b]pub stomper[/b]

[QUOTE=melonmonkey;34268334]Silencer is not a good hero. He can fuck up specific heroes, but when you don't have heroes that are hurt by his aura is is disastrously bad. Razor scales poorly, does poor damage, and your enemies will disable you while your carry runs away. Lion is not a good in a sidelane. Without being higher level than his enemies he cannot be an effective support. His abilites scale too much with levels and are too poor at lower levels for him to compare with any of the standard dual lane supports.[/QUOTE] 1. How can you think silencer is bad? I just don't understand. 2. BKB, He really does do alot of damage if you stay in close. 3. Wat, he is a silly effective support even if he is underleveled 2 brilliant CC's and high damage nuke, even if he hasn't got a high level ulti then he still has his Q and W.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268368]here's the problem with your logic: [b]you're not a pro player[/b] stop acting and stop trying to play like one, you're playing in pub games.[/QUOTE] So let me get this straight, just so we're clear. Some one said they are no useless heroes, I disagreed. I then tried to prove through logic why these heroes are useless. A couple people attempted to counter my logic. Now however, instead of debating with me, you are saying my logic is invalid because I'm not a pro. I really wasn't aware that was how logic works. I thought logic worked because it was formulaic and led to a conclusion. Maybe I'm wrong. [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kirrimir;34268401]1. How can you think silencer is bad? I just don't understand. 2. BKB, He really does do alot of damage if you stay in close. 3. Wat, he is a silly effective support even if he is underleveled 2 brilliant CC's and high damage nuke, even if he hasn't got a high level ulti then he still has his Q and W.[/QUOTE] 1. I explained it to you. 2. He can steal a maximum of 200 damage assuming your enemy doesn't bkb or get away, which they probably will be able to. Without this stolen damage, he then serves only as a non scaling nuker. 3. My issue with lion is not that he's "bad", it's that he's not as good as the other sidelane support options. CM is effective at level 2, WD is effective at 3 or 4. There are plenty of better heroes. [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268368]here's the problem with your logic: [b]you're not a pro player[/b] stop acting and stop trying to play like one, you're playing in pub games. [editline]18th January 2012[/editline] there's a difference between heroes viable in professional games due to the amount of teamwork, and the heroes viable in pub games because of how little communication there is on the enemy team, hence [b]pub stomper[/b][/QUOTE] I don't care about pubs dude. I play inhouses with IHG or 5 mans with good players, what's viable in a pub doesn't interest me any more. I'm not pro, but at the same time I do play with people good enough where this stuff matters. I want to make this clear before you go on your god of dota bullshit again. I AM NOT THAT GOOD, but I play with people who are and they carry me.

if you're queuing with 5 people you're still playing pubs.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268694]if you're queuing with 5 people you're still playing pubs.[/QUOTE] Sure, but we do serious strategies a good portion of the time and face good players, and we've never won a game with the heroes listed above, because it's almost impossible to get them to work against players who know what's going on. Well, silencer and lion we've done, but they aren't so bad as they are sub optimal.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;34268694]if you're queuing with 5 people you're still playing pubs.[/QUOTE] pre-made pubs =/= pro thats like saying tf2lobby is pro [editline]17th January 2012[/editline] If this is taken the wrong way, I am agreeing with you. [editline]17th January 2012[/editline] Was making the point to Melonmokey

[QUOTE=iwirthless;34268747]pre-made pubs =/= pro thats like saying tf2lobby is pro [editline]17th January 2012[/editline] If this is taken the wrong way, I am agreeing with you.[/QUOTE] Irrelevent. I never said a 5 man premade is pro. I don't think anyone did.

[QUOTE=melonmonkey;34268778]Irrelevent. I never said a 5 man premade is pro. I don't think anyone did.[/QUOTE] :/

[QUOTE=iwirthless;34268800]:/[/QUOTE] A 5 man pub isn't CM, but you're not going to get worked by these "pub stomp" heroes, because you're with a group of people that know how to deal with them.

Show us your proteam roster and any games you've played at tournaments bro. SRS PLAY

[QUOTE=Dwragon82997;34269306]Show us your proteam roster and any games you've played at tournaments bro. SRS PLAY[/QUOTE] I've been around enough zues players that my troll detector is very keen. I'm on to you.

I am thinking melon monkey should just stop posting in this thread for a while. I am not to be offensive though.

This is being taken too far, it's like discussing that 1v1 is a measure of skill. Shut up and be friend.

[QUOTE=Horse Strangler;34269834]I am thinking melon monkey should just stop posting in this thread for a while. I am not to be offensive though.[/QUOTE] Yeah I think you're right. I want to discuss gameplay heroes and balance, but people don't want to debate they just want to insult me or state that I'm dumb because they disagree. Bye all!

Who wants to debate with someone who just says this hero is shit and whatever you say, he's still shit. Gee sounds like fun.

Uh I am prety sure he is not the real Xboct, though I might be wrong? [IMG]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594707594789703962/054B1BF2180275E4BE85D22AAC1621E227046DD3/[/IMG]

I have to say that, as a sort of new player to the DotA scene. I have played most of the heroes by now. I just wanted to say, that I don't think Axe is someone to ignore, he is the only hero that I can pick up and win a game with. There is several reasons, I find him easy to last hit/deny with, he's a great farmer with his counter-helix. And in team fights he can help to actually win, as long as you got blink you can basically win the team fight. You might not do so much damage yourself, but if you managed to get 2 heroes forced to attack you, you can just let your allies nuke them. And when they try to run away from you, you just do culling blade. I am not saying that he is the best initiator in anyway, but I wouldn't call him useless. If I see the enemy team takes strong melee carries, obviously I go Axe, not all the times but often. Because if I can jungle or just farm to get my blink and blademail. They really drop like flies, and I often manages to get my team to work together, even in pubs. Since I try to be sincere, and not blame anyone. Every game since I started to try to get people to work as a team, nobody has been an ass. At least not to our own team. I am well aware though that a coordinated team with ES can do a lot more than one with Axe. That doesn't make Axe useless. Just some thoughts I had when reading the latest pages, and lets try to be civil. Melonmonkey, you don't need to stop posting, it's just that I think beardy got annoyed by you being a bit cocky, and I have agree you were a bit. But I think the whole argument went a little bit overboard. I don't agree with you monkey, but you've tried to be civil so, I don't see why you should leave the thread. Just try to understand other people's view points a little bit more, and not get too into an discussion. But I have to agree that Bloodseeker doesn't do much in team fights, that I agree with you. But he can be the one that totally cleans up after one. Or make it so the other team can't fight a team fight by picking off supports and whatnot.