Half-Life 2 came out 6 years after Half-Life, Team Fortress 2 came out 9 years after it was announced. A good game is remembered long after the wait for it is forgotten.
[QUOTE=aiusepsi;43716326]Half-Life 2 came out 6 years after Half-Life, Team Fortress 2 came out 9 years after it was announced. A good game is remembered long after the wait for it is forgotten.[/QUOTE]
Team fortress 2's presence had been known in two different forms. One was Brotherhood of Arms and the other was the Invasion which was in the leak.
[QUOTE=onebit;43717246]Who does the G-Man work for?
What's in the Borealis?
What happens to the gang?[/QUOTE]
It's not just the simple questions. What motivated us to wait? What subtle, indescribable fervor grasped our younger minds as we watched the oppressed population under the Combine regime struggle to find freedom in the form of the One Free Man? Why has that not died in the ensuing years of silence and vague reference? What ineffable quality of the series keeps us hoping, year after year, that maybe, finally, THIS will be the year, when we finally see The Announcement?
Hold that quality in your mind, and think what it would be like if the next game did not do it justice. And then ask again why Valve does not need to take all the time they need to deliver the game our wildest dreams could not imagine.
[QUOTE=onebit;43717246]Who does the G-Man work for?
What's in the Borealis?
What happens to the gang?[/QUOTE]
himself
dragon dildos
[sp]snape kills dumbledore[/sp]
[QUOTE=3com111;43714328]You're acting like valve owes you a game. They owe you nothing.[/QUOTE]
Except the part where they [URL="http://www.gamespot.com/articles/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced/1100-6151796/"]announced[/URL] a [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkeyAa8O4g"]trilogy of episodes[/URL] to buyers of HL2.
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43719711]Except the part where they [URL="http://www.gamespot.com/articles/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced/1100-6151796/"]announced[/URL] a [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkeyAa8O4g"]trilogy of episodes[/URL] to buyers of HL2.[/QUOTE] Unless you somehow managed to put down money for a pre-order for Episode 3, that still doesn't mean they owe you anything.
The presumption that, because they once said that they were going to make a game, many dozens of people [B]must[/B] work for several years on exactly that game that you want and nothing else they might want to pursue, is just so shockingly self-centred.
I like Neil Gaiman and John Scalzi's take on these sorts of things (again through the lens of GRRM/Song of Ice and Fire, it's a pretty good metaphor): [url]http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/02/23/pissy-fans/[/url]
[url]http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html[/url]
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43719711]Except the part where they [URL="http://www.gamespot.com/articles/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced/1100-6151796/"]announced[/URL] a [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkeyAa8O4g"]trilogy of episodes[/URL] to buyers of HL2.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.shacknews.com/article/37690/sin-episodes-announced]At least they did two.[/url]
[QUOTE=aiusepsi;43720183]Unless you somehow managed to put down money for a pre-order for Episode 3, that still doesn't mean they owe you anything.
The presumption that, because they once said that they were going to make a game, many dozens of people [B]must[/B] work for several years on exactly that game that you want and nothing else they might want to pursue, is just so shockingly self-centred.
I like Neil Gaiman and John Scalzi's take on these sorts of things (again through the lens of GRRM/Song of Ice and Fire, it's a pretty good metaphor): [url]http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/02/23/pissy-fans/[/url]
[url]http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html[/url][/QUOTE]
When you think about it, we have only received 2/3'ds of that product. Since it was announced as a trilogy, even as a HL3 according to Gabe many years ago. The episodic trilogy is an unfinished product because Valve banked on the success of HL2 and then spectacularly went into silence for 7 years later. This is the sort of thing EA does, infringe on the rights of customers.
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43720350]When you think about it, we have only received 2/3'ds of that product. Since it was announced as a trilogy, even as a HL3 according to Gabe many years ago. The episodic trilogy is an unfinished product because Valve banked on the success of HL2 and then spectacularly went into silence for 7 years later. This is the sort of thing EA does, enfringe on the rights of customers.[/QUOTE]
It's not "enfring[ing] [sic] on the rights of customers" to not release a video game. It's taking a rather long time to fulfill promises, or perhaps breaking a promise depending on what they do, but by no means do you have a "right" to the release of a video game. It would be infringing on the rights of customers to promise a video game, exchange money for said video game, and then not deliver said video game, but no such legitimate exchanges have happened.
And this is not nearly the same as what EA does. If Valve were like EA, they'd have released Half life 3/Episode 3 eons ago with day 1 DLC, multiplayer with pay-to-win microtransactions, and a buggy, short, unsatisfying singleplayer.
[QUOTE=p0rtalplayer;43720422]It's not "enfring[ing] [sic] on the rights of customers" to not release a video game. It's taking a rather long time to fulfill promises, or perhaps breaking a promise depending on what they do, but by no means do you have a "right" to the release of a video game. It would be infringing on the rights of customers to promise a video game, exchange money for said video game, and then not deliver said video game, but no such legitimate exchanges have happened. [/QUOTE]
It's still a product though, and only a portion of that product was released. Video games aren't any different.
[quote]And this is not nearly the same as what EA does. [U]If Valve were like EA, they'd have released Half life 3/Episode 3 eons ago with day 1 DLC, multiplayer with pay-to-win microtransactions[/U], and a buggy, short, unsatisfying singleplayer.[/quote]
Sans SP they already did that with TF2, though!
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43720527] Video games aren't any different.[/quote]
yes they are
[quote]
Sans SP they already did that with TF2, though![/QUOTE]
no they didn't
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43720527]Sans SP they already did that with TF2, though![/QUOTE]
The [I]cosmetics[/I] shop (that also allows you to buy weapons that can also be crafted/dropped/traded for free) was added to TF2 [B]three [/B]years after its release, and it went F2P shortly after that. That's a long time that they kept the game updated with free content without ever asking for a dime back.
This thread just makes me think of all the terminal young adults who died and will die before a next Half Life is released. Just think. EP3/HL3 started out as something to count on to roll out soon after 2007. Then it wasn't, now it's practically just a joke. So many dead fans, man. So many people who were fully expecting to play through the whole saga and never will.
[QUOTE=Zelpa;43707748]Personally I think realtime editing isn't very good, but something like a button to instantly put the map ingame with no compile to test would be nice.[/QUOTE]
Wait, why?
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43720527]It's still a product though, and only a portion of that product was released.[/QUOTE]
It's not a full product. How can you not conceive something as simple as this? Half-Life 3 was [I]divided[/I] into three seperate products so we would not have to wait even longer for it to come out. (like THAT worked out) But the point is, think of it as a banana split. You might have the banana, the icecream and the bowl, but just because the shop was out of cherries doesn't mean they owe you something. They didn't sell the banana split as a whole deal, the banana split will still be good without the cherry, but it's not needed to enjoy it. That's not to say Episode 3 isn't needed, I'm saying that right now there's a reason they've kept it under wraps. And if it's taken them 7 years of development hell to get through it so far then I think I like radio silence better than constant development changes. I mean, in the end it would turn out like The Bureau and XCOM:EU before The Bureau was The Bureau. Everyone got confused between different versions, including the devs themselves, and while a majority knew what was going on it made it hard to drive the point home that X game was not Y game.
C'mon guys. It could be worse, and at least it hopefully won't turn out to be a 15 year wait for a dud like Duke Nukem Forever (not that I ever played DN, or even played DNF, but that's the general conclusion so whatever). VALVe has had a steady stream of games coming out each year since Left 4 Dead if you include Alien Swarm. This year we're getting the Steam Machine, and it needs some debut titles right now, so all hope isn't lost for it just yet. There might be no evidence to support that Episode 3 will be a debut title, but right now it's the most logical assumption for a VALVe made launch title, if there is a VALVe-made launch title. Not even Assassin's Creed 5 or the next CoD game have been announced yet.
[QUOTE=EpicRandomnes;43723398]Half-Life 3 was [I]divided[/I] into three seperate products so we would not have to wait even longer for it to come out.[/QUOTE]Nope. The episodes spawned from a HL2 expansion pack.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Li2cJ5P.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=The Kins;43723481]Nope. The episodes spawned from a HL2 expansion pack.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Li2cJ5P.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
They were still episodic in nature though, before 'Episode' was included in their titles. There would have been Aftermath, Outlands, and whatever they would have called the last one. They specifically changed their titles to reflect that approach.
[quote]The good news is that Valve is in the final stages of prepping Half-Life 2: Aftermath, the first expansion for Half-Life 2, due out later this year. Valve likes to describe Aftermath as a new "episode" for the franchise, and we know that it picks up immediately after the events of the main game ... We don't want to spoil any surprises by getting into specifics. But to answer this in general terms, the entirety of the episode is set in City 17, and the driving force is the fact that, thanks to Gordon's actions at the end of Half-Life 2, the Citadel is about to give up the ghost in such a way that anyone left in the city will be killed ... Half-Life 2: Aftermath is a new episode in the Half-Life story, so it's intentionally shorter than Half-Life 2. We're still finalizing the exact length, as this is the first time we've released a new episode for one of our games.[/quote]
[url]http://www.gamespot.com/articles/half-life-2-aftermath-qanda-the-skinny-on-aftermath/1100-6128325/[/url]
I'm assuming they originally planned to have Hunters play a bigger part in 'Aftermath' other then being in the message since they were on the Concept Art for the cover
[img]http://combineoverwiki.net/images/d/d9/Half-Life_2_Aftermath_cover.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Chrille;43723745]They were still episodic in nature though, before 'Episode' was included in their titles. There would have been Aftermath, Outlands, and whatever they would have called the last one. They specifically changed their titles to reflect that approach.
[/QUOTE]
Wow, never heard about EP2 initially being called "Outlands"
Would have much rather it been Aftermath and Outlands tbh.
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43720527]It's still a product though, and only a portion of that product was released. Video games aren't any different.[/QUOTE]
Unless you pre-paid for all the episodes in one go, the trilogy isn't a single product, the individual episodes are, and each episode was released in full.
An author who plans to write a trilogy of books isn't infringing on the rights of her readers if she doesn't immediately finish it for whatever reason; they paid for the individual books, and that's the end of the transaction.
They can't do Episode Three.
Because on Steam it would be listed Episode One, Episode Three, then Episode Two. That's not how you count.
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43720527]
Sans SP they already did that with TF2, though![/QUOTE]
No, they haven't. TF2 did not have DLC on release, nor does it have pay-to-win microtransactions. It has microtransactions, but they are mostly cosmetic or have no effect on gameplay - the items that do affect the gameplay can be traded or found for free, and that's how the majority of players get them. Other than a few specific cosmetic items you can get everything for free. If there were items that affected gameplay that could only be obtained using real money, then it would be pay-to-win.
[QUOTE=EpicRandomnes;43723398]It's not a full product. How can you not conceive something as simple as this? Half-Life 3 was [I]divided[/I] into three seperate products so we would not have to wait even longer for it to come out. (like THAT worked out) But the point is, think of it as a banana split. You might have the banana, the icecream and the bowl, but just because the shop was out of cherries doesn't mean they owe you something. They didn't sell the banana split as a whole deal, the banana split will still be good without the cherry, but it's not needed to enjoy it. That's not to say Episode 3 isn't needed, I'm saying that right now there's a reason they've kept it under wraps. And if it's taken them 7 years of development hell to get through it so far then I think I like radio silence better than constant development changes. I mean, in the end it would turn out like The Bureau and XCOM:EU before The Bureau was The Bureau. Everyone got confused between different versions, including the devs themselves, and while a majority knew what was going on it made it hard to drive the point home that X game was not Y game.
C'mon guys. It could be worse, and at least it hopefully won't turn out to be a 15 year wait for a dud like Duke Nukem Forever (not that I ever played DN, or even played DNF, but that's the general conclusion so whatever). VALVe has had a steady stream of games coming out each year since Left 4 Dead if you include Alien Swarm. This year we're getting the Steam Machine, and it needs some debut titles right now, so all hope isn't lost for it just yet. There might be no evidence to support that Episode 3 will be a debut title, but right now it's the most logical assumption for a VALVe made launch title, if there is a VALVe-made launch title. Not even Assassin's Creed 5 or the next CoD game have been announced yet.[/QUOTE]
Steam Machines don't need another launch title, they've already got hundreds of games.
[QUOTE=SpotEnemyBoat;43719711]Except the part where they [URL="http://www.gamespot.com/articles/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced/1100-6151796/"]announced[/URL] a [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkeyAa8O4g"]trilogy of episodes[/URL] to buyers of HL2.[/QUOTE]
Except it's known for ages, that Valve has seen it as a failure.
After the damage of 200 million dollars through the Half Life 2 leak and the normal cost of additional 40 million dollars,
you can really understand that they didn't want to make such a big project again. So they went to the episodes.
But it turned out that it's also hard to make games in episodic forms, as they cancelled it long time ago.
Valve making mistakes? Who would have thought, they are still humans.
My theory why they stopped making episodic games is simple, Valve's development structure doesn't apply to such fast projects.
The only new real addition to the weapons was the bomb at the end of Episode 2. Episode 3 would have been just a continuation to the story. Nothing more.
Their structure in making great games thanks to long developments just doesn't work on episodic games.
[QUOTE=3com111;43714328]You're acting like valve owes you a game. They owe you nothing.[/QUOTE]
I am not okay with people saying we aren't entitled (as childish as it sounds), since it is Half-Life fan and Steam fans that started Valve, we are the ones that provided money to them since we liked where Half-Life was headed, we did not pay for a cliff hanger that would last 6 years with virtually no information released. If it weren't for Half-Life fans and Steam fans, Valve probably wouldn't be successful, nobody there would be rich, and Source 2? Ha, we wouldn't have even gotten to Source 1 if it weren't for us. Valve fans funded Valve because they liked Half-Life, Steam and GoldSrc/Source and wanted to see more of it, we did not fund them to throw us to the wolves and never say a word about what the people who wanted to see more of what they paid for.
Seriously, Gabe's a billionaire, who owns a business that lets him be the boss and not rely on shareholders, and guess who supplied him the cash to make this possible (Hint: The fans), we are entitled to periodic releases of anything Valve is working on, at the very least Half-Life and Source 2 since we played a major part in getting them to this stage.
Valve thinks releasing content would harm the community with all the twists and turns they make, but they are so ignorant to realise that not releasing anything and riding the hype train above and beyond has done far more damage than that ever could. I think Valve should release some information for the fans that [I] actually made them possible[/I].
[QUOTE=nightlord;43729669]No, they haven't. TF2 did not have DLC on release, nor does it have pay-to-win microtransactions. It has microtransactions, but they are mostly cosmetic or have no effect on gameplay - the items that do affect the gameplay can be traded or found for free, and that's how the majority of players get them. Other than a few specific cosmetic items you can get everything for free. If there were items that affected gameplay that could only be obtained using real money, then it would be pay-to-win.[/QUOTE]
You missed the part where TF2's newer guns being overpowered and the cosmetics being out of place in a cartoony version of the 1950's.
TF2 before the mannconomy update was a fantastic MP game, though.
[QUOTE=Antimuffin;43738815]Except it's known for ages, that Valve has seen it as a failure.
After the damage of 200 million dollars through the Half Life 2 leak and the normal cost of additional 40 million dollars,
you can really understand that they didn't want to make such a big project again. So they went to the episodes.
But it turned out that it's also hard to make games in episodic forms, as they cancelled it long time ago.
Valve making mistakes? Who would have thought, they are still humans.
My theory why they stopped making episodic games is simple, Valve's development structure doesn't apply to such fast projects.
The only new real addition to the weapons was the bomb at the end of Episode 2. Episode 3 would have been just a continuation to the story. Nothing more.
Their structure in making great games thanks to long developments just doesn't work on episodic games.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure they acknowledge it as a disaster, Valve is too embarrassed to address the community directly. Would could they say "oh we're sorry that we couldn't make Episode Three, we got distracted with MP games because they make us more money."
However, would it bother them to stop dicking around with their community? You see Gabe going around with the 3 jokes at Reddit ama's and other events, and at some point the dog show starts to get old. Even Game Informer made fun of them for their antics.
In a way, it almost seems like alot of Source maps (ex: GameBanana) we have now are better than what is shown in the "leaked" Source 2 image. I just think Valve needs some NEW original artists (along with the fact that Viktor Antinov left) because I think that their art team is out of ideas.
People who make 1 map a year seem to have better artistic ability than Valve's art department in 3/4/5/6/7/8 years or however long it takes them to make a damn game.
You know that its 3 years old and they used source (1) assets?
[QUOTE=supersoldier58;43739877]I am not okay with people saying we aren't entitled (as childish as it sounds), since it is Half-Life fan and Steam fans that started Valve, we are the ones that provided money to them since we liked where Half-Life was headed, we did not pay for a cliff hanger that would last 6 years with virtually no information released. If it weren't for Half-Life fans and Steam fans, Valve probably wouldn't be successful, nobody there would be rich, and Source 2? Ha, we wouldn't have even gotten to Source 1 if it weren't for us. Valve fans funded Valve because they liked Half-Life, Steam and GoldSrc/Source and wanted to see more of it, we did not fund them to throw us to the wolves and never say a word about what the people who wanted to see more of what they paid for.
Seriously, Gabe's a billionaire, who owns a business that lets him be the boss and not rely on shareholders, and guess who supplied him the cash to make this possible (Hint: The fans), we are entitled to periodic releases of anything Valve is working on, at the very least Half-Life and Source 2 since we played a major part in getting them to this stage.
Valve thinks releasing content would harm the community with all the twists and turns they make, but they are so ignorant to realise that not releasing anything and riding the hype train above and beyond has done far more damage than that ever could. I think Valve should release some information for the fans that [I] actually made them possible[/I].[/QUOTE]
Ehh, "funding Valve" implies we gave them money out of charity or as a stock in their company. We didn't - we bought a product they'd made for the purposes of playing that product. They don't owe us anything more than the actual thing we bought. If you expected more than that then it's really your problem, not Valve's - they weren't selling HL as investment in their company or whatever.
The whole point of not having shareholders is they [I]aren't[/I] beholden to a bunch of people that feel entitled to tell them what to do.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;43741022]Ehh, "funding Valve" implies we gave them money out of charity or as a stock in their company. We didn't - we bought a product they'd made for the purposes of playing that product. They don't owe us anything more than the actual thing we bought. If you expected more than that then it's really your problem, not Valve's - they weren't selling HL as investment in their company or whatever.
The whole point of not having shareholders is they [I]aren't[/I] beholden to a bunch of people that feel entitled to tell them what to do.[/QUOTE]
Except the part where they mentioned trilogy/ep3 50 times in the past, I bought games in the Half-Life series fully expecting Valve to meet that outcome, and they shouldn't have ended HL2 EP2 on a cliffhanger if they didn't want that expectation, but they did and now they have to owe up to their fans. If someone went back to 2006 (2004 even, maybe even further back) and proved that the series was going to become vapour ware, and that the original fans were going to be thrown under the bus, there probably wouldn't as many sales, meaning Valve might not be swimming in cash like they are now. It's unacceptable what they are doing, and even if all that I said above didn't matter, they should have the decency of providing to their original loyal fans.
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