Oblivion 2: Skyrim V6: Old People's Naked Bodies Fishing Secrets With Their Manly Beards

[Froztshock]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069340]Frankly I just don't believe this is true, I believe that because no one has totally pulled it off yet, people might not realize it's possible. The Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion was pretty damn character driven considering it had the best written, most memorable characters in Elder Scrolls history, and it's underlying plot was almost non-existent, with an incredibly slow build-up to the (actually satisfying for once) climax.

Anything is possible within the scope of an open-world game. It's why it's called open-world.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it weird that the best questline in the game is probably the one that the least people play? Or at least I assume it's the least played, I've never really been one for the whole murder thing and I may be incorrectly assuming that many others are the same.

[Crpto2007]

what are these radiant quests you people speak of?

Also I started a pretty cool quest where you find this orb with the college of winter hold.

[Sector 7]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069141]No, this is totally wrong! First off, Bioware games are just as shallow, I don't know where people get the idea that they aren't. Mass Effect - Reapers are coming, only you can stop them! Dragon Age - Darkspawn are coming, only you can stop them! Please, no more. [/QUOTE]

...yeah, you need to update your definition of storytelling. You're complaining about the plot.

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069062]Video games should be an art form. What's the point in discussing the math behind the game's combat system, when that literally has no bearing on the artistic merit or enjoyment of the game. [/QUOTE]

Are you fucking serious..? Look, maybe you should just stick to reading books. I, for one, enjoy complicated games with satisfying combat mechanics.

[stepat201]

[QUOTE=froztshock;34069598]Isn't it weird that the best questline in the game is probably the one that the least people play? Or at least I assume it's the least played, I've never really been one for the whole murder thing and I may be incorrectly assuming that many others are the same.[/QUOTE]

Dark Brotherhood may be the best questline in Skyrim, but that's literally saying nothing when you look at it's competition. It's the only one with any sense of pacing, although it still messes this up when the story kicks it up to 11 after Cicero arrives, and the ending makes no sense at all. [sp]Why would Astrid betray the guild to save the guild from the mess caused by her betraying the guild[/sp]???

[editline]6th January 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=Sector 7;34069682]...yeah, you need to update your definition of storytelling. You're complaining about the plot.

Are you fucking serious..? Look, maybe you should just stick to reading books. I, for one, enjoy complicated games with satisfying combat mechanics.[/QUOTE]

lol yes I'm serious. I don't like reading books, books are outdated. Film, music, and video games are the storytelling mediums of today. And I never said that a game shouldn't have satisfying combat mechanics! Obviously that's important, but I'm saying the game's artistic merit and storytelling prowess is [I]more[/I] important. It's not like good combat is hard to do anyway. Why can't a game have both?

And I know I'm complaining about the plot and not the storytelling in the case of Bioware, but what's the point of even progressing to storytelling when the plot is so utterly horrible to begin with? Come up with a good plot first, then tell it well.

[Sector 7]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069726]lol yes I'm serious. I don't like reading books, books are outdated. Film, music, and video games are the storytelling mediums of today. And I never said that a game shouldn't have satisfying combat mechanics! Obviously that's important, but I'm saying the game's artistic merit and storytelling prowess is [I]more[/I] important. It's not like good combat is hard to do anyway. Why can't a game have both?

And I know I'm complaining about the plot and not the storytelling in the case of Bioware, but what's the point of even progressing to storytelling when the plot is so utterly horrible to begin with? Come up with a good plot first, then tell it well.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should [i]start[/i] reading books, because then you'd realize that in the grand scheme of things the plot isn't important. People in general don't enjoy literature because it's complicated or new, people enjoy literature because the storytelling makes them care about the characters and what happens to them. That's where storytelling comes in, and Bioware tells the best story in the business, hands down. You're hugely simplifying the plot of ME anyway, which kind of invalidates what you're saying.

Second of all, you're saying games should be artistic, so they shouldn't be mathematical? Why are [i]those[/i] things mutually exclusive? It's entirely possible to have intuitive and yet complicated systems in games - in fact, your game is better off that way because then it has a higher skill ceiling.

[stepat201]

[QUOTE=Sector 7;34069884]Maybe you should [i]start[/i] reading books, because then you'd realize that in the grand scheme of things the plot isn't important. People in general don't enjoy literature because it's complicated or new, people enjoy literature because the storytelling makes them care about the characters and what happens to them. That's where storytelling comes in, and Bioware tells the best story in the business, hands down.

Second of all, you're saying games should be artistic, so they shouldn't be mathematical? Why are [i]those[/i] things mutually exclusive?[/QUOTE]

I've read tons of books, how would I know I don't care for them if I hadn't? And what you're saying is definitely true to an extent, but the best literature written had much more complicated concepts than "demons are coming, only you can stop them". The best writing and stories come from the hearts and minds of their creators, this is true for all art forms. A story about demons, with no emotional intricacies, is by default on a lower level to others.

Bioware's stories are not good, please explain to me why you think they are? Aside from the plot's being terrible, the characters are largely contrived and there's no motivation driving the player's actions. The disconnect between Mass Effect 2's reaper plot and it's companion side quests is hilarious, and an obvious attempt at adding emotional complexity to one of the shallowest games I've played.

And I never said games shouldn't be mathematical, I said that it shouldn't come before art.

[Scarbo]

[QUOTE=rinoaff33;34069285][url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Children_of_the_Sky[/url]

I googled "Oblivion book that talks about shouts".[/QUOTE]

Seems so different to how they are now.

[xenodrox]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069972]I've read tons of books, how would I know I don't care for them if I hadn't? And what you're saying is definitely true to an extent, but the best literature written had much more complicated concepts than "demons are coming, only you can stop them". The best writing and stories come from the hearts and minds of their creators, this is true for all art forms. A story about demons, with no emotional intricacies, is by default on a lower level to others.

Bioware's stories are not good, please explain to me why you think they are? Aside from the plot's being terrible, the characters are largely contrived and there's no motivation driving the player's actions. The disconnect between Mass Effect 2's reaper plot and it's companion side quests is hilarious, and an obvious attempt at adding emotional complexity to one of the shallowest games I've played.

And I never said games shouldn't be mathematical, I said that it shouldn't come before art.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying that artistic merit is a function of complexity? What exactly [i]do[/i] you mean by artistic merit, anyway? Because the way I see it, you don't get to say what doesn't have artistic merit. Only what does. See, there's a difference between something lacking artistic merit and your [i]failure to appreciate[/i] artistic merit. As in your lack of appreciation for the merit of literature.

What's this about art coming before math, anyway? Ever look at a fractal? That's math visualized. The visuals you see in a game are made with math. Textures are color value data (numbers) described within a two-dimensional coordinate plane. Models are point and edge data described within a three-dimensional coordinate plane. These are displayed using further algebra and geometry and maybe a little bit of calculus to get things moving. As a matter of fact, without the math in a graphical game you wouldn't HAVE any art. And of course, you wouldn't like text-based adventures because you fail to appreciate their artistic merit.

And of course, this is without discussing whether math itself is a form of art.

[Sector 7]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069972]Bioware's stories are not good, please explain to me why you think they are? Aside from the plot's being terrible, the characters are largely contrived and there's no motivation driving the player's actions. The disconnect between Mass Effect 2's reaper plot and it's companion side quests is hilarious, and an obvious attempt at adding emotional complexity to one of the shallowest games I've played.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, you've already decided what you think about ME, but I'll still throw it out there anyway.

-The plot being 'terrible' is entirely a matter of opinion, but for some reason you think just because a work of fiction has been cliche'd it is automatically garbage. That's nonsense. The greatest artistic works of our generation take advantages of tropes in their storytelling. In ME, the reapers function as the biggest threat the galaxy could possibly face, and the game uses this as a baseline to create an epic experience. This has certainly been done before, but a focal point of ME2 is that the reapers are actually biomechanical lifeforms which absorb the genetics of other races as part of their reproduction process. That's new. That's innovative.
[quote]Mass Effect - Reapers are coming, only you can stop them![/quote]

Half-Life: Aliens are coming, only you can stop them!
Halo: Aliens are coming, only you can stop them!
LOTR: Goblins are coming, only Frodo can stop them!

[i]that's how authors create tension, [b]especially[/b] in video games,[/i] by creating a threat that the player needs to face. Differences to this formula are just a matter of scale.

[rinoaff33]

[QUOTE=Scarbo;34070123]Seems so different to how they are now.[/QUOTE]

It's about the older nords, and is also probably exaggerated. Apparently Skyrim in the present plot has been "imperialized" to the point where Shouts are a novelty rather than a part of life.

[editline]5th January 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=Sector 7;34070204]Obviously, you've already decided what you think about ME, but I'll still throw it out there anyway.

-The plot being 'terrible' is entirely a matter of opinion, but for some reason you think just because a work of fiction has been cliche'd it is automatically garbage. That's nonsense. The greatest artistic works of our generation take advantages of tropes in their storytelling. In ME, the reapers function as the biggest threat the galaxy could possibly face, and the game uses this as a baseline to create an epic experience. This has certainly been done before, but a focal point of ME2 is that the reapers are actually biomechanical lifeforms which absorb the genetics of other races as part of their reproduction process. That's new. That's innovative.

Half-Life: Aliens are coming, only you can stop them!
Halo: Aliens are coming, only you can stop them!
LOTR: Goblins are coming, only Frodo can stop them!

[i]that's how authors create tension, [b]especially[/b] in video games,[/i] by creating a threat that the player needs to face. Differences to this formula are just a matter of scale.[/QUOTE]

Not that I disagree with your point, but Mass Effect would be helped if it wasn't polarized to the point where Paragon Commander Shepard is such an obvious Mary Sue who finds a third option for (almost) everything and Renegade Shepard is a real-life (so to speak) troll, and being a more normal (neutral) person goes against gameplay.

[stepat201]

[QUOTE=Sector 7;34070204]Obviously, you've already decided what you think about ME, but I'll still throw it out there anyway.

-The plot being 'terrible' is entirely a matter of opinion, but for some reason you think just because a work of fiction has been cliche'd it is automatically garbage. That's nonsense. The greatest artistic works of our generation take advantages of tropes in their storytelling. In ME, the reapers function as the biggest threat the galaxy could possibly face, and the game uses this as a baseline to create an epic experience. This has certainly been done before, but a focal point of ME2 is that the reapers are actually biomechanical lifeforms which absorb the genetics of other races as part of their reproduction process. That's new. That's innovative.

Half-Life: Aliens are coming, only you can stop them!
Halo: Aliens are coming, only you can stop them!
LOTR: Goblins are coming, only Frodo can stop them!

[i]that's how authors create tension, [b]especially[/b] in video games,[/i] by creating a threat that the player needs to face. Differences to this formula are just a matter of scale.[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking beyond this though. You say:

[quote]that's how authors create tension, especially in video games, by creating a threat that the player needs to face. Differences to this formula are just a matter of scale.[/quote]

But why limit games by boxing them in like this? Why do games [I]need[/I] to have such standard "rising threat" plots? Do the best films have these plots? No, unless you really think Star Wars is one of the best films of all time. I honestly am imaging an Elder Scrolls game that is devoid of this lower tier of storytelling. I've had this discussion with other people before, and as soon as I say that games shouldn't have such standard plots, people seem to stop listening because it's too much for them to take in.

We don't need to limit storytelling in games to these average plots, [I]just because so many less than talented developers choose to do so.[/I] Game developers are not writers, this is obvious. I'm suggesting that they become writers.

[dogmachines]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34069726]Dark Brotherhood may be the best questline in Skyrim, but that's literally saying nothing when you look at it's competition. It's the only one with any sense of pacing, although it still messes this up when the story kicks it up to 11 after Cicero arrives, and the ending makes no sense at all. [sp]Why would Astrid betray the guild to save the guild from the mess caused by her betraying the guild[/sp]???

[/QUOTE]
DB spoilers:[sp]She betrayed the PC because she didn't want there to be a listener. She wanted to remain in charge without the Night Mother interfering. Caro decided to play her and wipe out the sanctuary anyway since they killed his son.[/sp]

[rinoaff33]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34070294]I'm thinking beyond this though. You say:

But why limit games by boxing them in like this? Why do games [I]need[/I] to have such standard "rising threat" plots? Do the best films have these plots? No, unless you really think Star Wars is one of the best films of all time. I honestly am imaging an Elder Scrolls game that is devoid of this lower tier of storytelling. I've had this discussion with other people before, and as soon as I say that games shouldn't have such standard plots, people seem to stop listening because it's too much for them to take in.

We don't need to limit storytelling in games to these average plots, [I]just because so many less than talented developers choose to do so.[/I] Game developers are not writers, this is obvious. I'm suggesting that they become writers.[/QUOTE]

What other kind of story would you suggest for an epic/high fantasy (that has some low fantasy elements)? It is one of the most cliched genres, yet it is by FAR the most popular for RPG games. There is a reason tropes exist - there are limits to storytelling unless you want something to be so original as to be nonsensical.

[stepat201]

[QUOTE=rinoaff33;34070327]What other kind of story would you suggest for an epic/high fantasy (that has some low fantasy elements)? It is one of the most cliched genres, yet it is by FAR the most popular for RPG games. There is a reason tropes exist - there are limits to storytelling unless you want something to be so original as to be nonsensical.[/QUOTE]

Anything that is character based and well told and involving. Obviously I couldn't pitch an actual plot idea since you can't pull good stories out of your ass on the spot, but like I said earlier I'd look to Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood as the best example so far of what's possible in these games, as it has excellent pacing, detailed, memorable and like-able characters, nuanced storytelling, and considerable payoff.

You say it's one of the most cliched genres, and what I'm suggesting is that they break out of the cliches. I don't see how this could be viewed as a bad thing. Art that embraces cliche rather than surpassing it is automatically a lower form of art.

[Darth Hater]

[QUOTE=KorJax;34043699]On a good note though, anyone ran into the lady on the log?
[IMG]http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/KorJax/TESV2012-01-0400-50-55-04.png[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
Where is this exactly? I want to give that old orc an honorable death on it.

[Funsize]

[QUOTE=dogmachines;34070309]DB spoilers:[sp]She betrayed the PC because she didn't want there to be a listener. She wanted to remain in charge without the Night Mother interfering. Caro decided to play her and wipe out the sanctuary anyway since they killed his son.[/sp][/QUOTE]

[sp]They abolished the Five Tenets, you just know something bad is going to happen.[/sp]

[NoShogun]

I don't understand how you guys can really be calling the whole "big threat plus some political conflict" a big cliche. That's such a broad topic. I mean, Mass Effect, Skyrim, and Dragon Age all fall under this umbrella and they're all different games.

What, do you all want a plotline that involves no threat or conflict and you just sit around gathering vegetables all day long?

[timman]

Lore question.

In Skyrim, do the Redguards still hate the Empire for giving in to the Aldmeri's demands after the Great War?

[stepat201]

[QUOTE=NoShogun;34070802]I don't understand how you guys can really be calling the whole "big threat plus some political conflict" a big cliche. That's such a broad topic. I mean, Mass Effect, Skyrim, and Dragon Age all fall under this umbrella and they're all different games.

What, do you all want a plotline that involves no threat or conflict and you just sit around gathering vegetables all day long?[/QUOTE]

The conflict doesn't need to be so generic though. See Oblivion's DB quest again for an example. Morrowind's political house questlines are probably also a good example. There's just so much potential I'm not satisfied with seeing the same stuff over and over again. I mean, really consider this: Everyone following Skyrim's development knew exactly how the plot would play out and end before the game's release. Am I the only one not okay with this? Prophecies are, bar none, the worst excuse for storytelling, and the worst excuse for complacency in storytelling, to ever exist.

Anyway, I don't want to discuss this anymore so unless someone has something great to add I think the thread should just go back to normal now.

[nostalgk]

I remember something about being able to download skyrims books as ebooks, where can I get these and would they work on a kindle?

[Sector 7]

[QUOTE=stepat201;34070294] I've had this discussion with other people before, and as soon as I say that games shouldn't have such standard plots, people seem to stop listening because it's too much for them to take in.[/QUOTE]

maybe it's because you come off as incredibly pretentious and are probably boring

[Sharker]

[QUOTE=KorJax;34043699]On a good note though, anyone ran into the lady on the log?

[IMG]http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/KorJax/TESV2012-01-0400-50-55-04.png[/img][/QUOTE]

No, so you ruined it because it's a lot more fun to find things like this on your own.

[stepat201]

[QUOTE=Sector 7;34071072]maybe it's because you come off as incredibly pretentious and are probably boring[/QUOTE]

Sure I can see that but really I just have a lot of conviction on this subject. I just want games to be better artistically, and it frustrates me when other people don't share that sentiment. There's a reason Kanye is in my display pic!

[Darth Hater]

[QUOTE=timman;34071049]Lore question.

In Skyrim, do the Redguards still hate the Empire for giving in to the Aldmeri's demands after the Great War?[/QUOTE]

Probably? We don't know much about what's going on in Hammerfell currently. Nobody in skyrim, even the people who have recently come from Hammerfell talk about anything outside skyrim. Nobody seems to know or discuss anything happening in other areas. It really bugs me.

[QUOTE=Sharker;34071097]No, so you ruined it because it's a lot more fun to find things like this on your own.[/QUOTE]

Oh...sorry about bring that up again.

[Farm]

Ok, so I'm making this:
[img]http://manatank.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/dovahkiin.jpg[/img]

And how shall I make this you say? How shall I build this sturdy, metal, battle-worn helmet? Out of paper. Duh. First, I got a papercraft model of the helmet, and built that.
[img_thumb]http://filesmelt.com/dl/DSC_2587.JPG[/img_thumb]

After filling the horns with duct tape to make sure they don't crush, I got this:
[img_thumb]http://filesmelt.com/dl/DSC_2625.JPG[/img_thumb]

Pretty good for one afternoon of work, eh? Now that the easy (if tedious) part is done, I had to make the thing a little bit stronger than card-stock paper and glue. How shall I do that? How shall I turn mere paper into a helmet fit for the head of the dragonborn? More paper. Duh. To be precise, paper-mache.

[img_thumb]http://filesmelt.com/dl/DSC_2631.JPG[/img_thumb]
This is what it looked like after two layers of paper-mache. By this point I also had some temporary cardboard infrastructure inside it, so it got pretty strong. So to make it look like metal I used spackle to smooth it out and give it a more solid kind of look. Here it is after two layers, sanding, and some sealing spray.

[img_thumb]http://filesmelt.com/dl/DSC_2639.JPG[/img_thumb]
Looking good. Now to make the horns look more like horns. I used some string and more paper-mache to give it ridges, which I then spackled over and sealed again.

[img_thumb]http://filesmelt.com/dl/DSC_2644.JPG[/img_thumb]
Then I primed it with black spray paint on the metal part, and white on the horns. Now it looks really bad, but that's ok, it's just the priming and the paint is still wet. Also, due to the blackness of the helmet, I had to use my flash so the picture sucks.

[img_thumb]http://filesmelt.com/dl/DSC_2652.JPG[/img_thumb]
That's all I have for now, I'm going to pick up some spray foam tomorrow to make it really rigid, and paper-mache the inside and all that. I'll have to do another coat of sealer and paint for the inside, but ah well.

[ColdWave]

So does everyone else here hate the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion too? I cannot stand them at all, I used to like High Elves back in the IV days, now they are all just dooche bags.

[timman]

[QUOTE=Darth Hater;34071132]Probably? We don't know much about what's going on in Hammerfell currently. Nobody in skyrim, even the people who have recently come from Hammerfell talk about anything outside skyrim. Nobody seems to know or discuss anything happening in other areas. It really bugs me.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, it seems I have reached an impasse because I'm trying to role-play my Redguard warrior (as geeky as that sounds). On one hand, it would make sense if I joined the Stormcloaks because Redguards hate the Empire, but on the other hand, I like Balgruuf (I'm also his thane) and he goes and allies himself to the Empire. Choices choices.

Wow I sound like a freaking weirdo, I hope I'm not the only person who role-plays like this in the Elder Scrolls games. :v:

[wizlord]

[QUOTE=ColdWave;34071200]So does everyone else here hate the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion too? I cannot stand them at all, I used to like High Elves back in the IV days, now they are all just dooche bags.[/QUOTE]

no we all love our elven overlords and are frankly disgusted by your refusal to admit their superiority

[dragon1972]

[QUOTE=ColdWave;34071200]So does everyone else here hate the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion too? I cannot stand them at all, I used to like High Elves back in the IV days, now they are all just dooche bags.[/QUOTE]

You're supposed to hate them.

[Checkers]

FACT: all bioware games are shit