To me it feels like people who posted witty or stupid comments should be the ones in the Rust forum, not the other way around.
[QUOTE=PortalGod;43365985]
procedural isn't necessarily doing it in game, it refers to anything that's made with a program/algorithm of some sort rather than by hand, so you're example of random generation would be procedural too[/QUOTE]
Than I'm stupidly confused. What is the difference between procedural and random generation? Are they one in the same? I thought there was some specific characteristic for each.
If you want proper feedback, we need a little more information about what your ideas are. You don't seem to have much of a specific concept you're going for, other than wanting to create a game that takes the gameplay of hit games like DayZ and Minecraft, with the aesthetics of Wurm Online. Torque3D is a decent engine, but it has its limitations; if you don't mind really tweaking it, you can do anything with it, but you'll have to put in a good deal of effort in order to add any unique additions that significantly alter gameplay.
The problem with your mantra is that you want to make the game simple, yet simplicity in and of itself distances the game from uniqueness and fun because there are a plethora of survival games that don't have any complexity. The lack of terraforming is a huge drawback, and with the addition of it, although challenging to implement, would instantly give the game a immense amount of depth that it desperately needs.
[quote]- Full 20KM map, which equals to 400 square KM[/quote]
Judging by the photos, the quality of the terrain seems quite low, and the terrain itself is generic and simple. A smaller, more unique setting, is vastly preferable to a large space that lacks any sort of diversity in terms of terrain and flora. The mountains are silly, and the general aesthetic of the setting is bland and empty. You would benefit immensely from some sort of procedural terrain generation, of which there are many methods, but if you are insistent on limiting the terrain to what can be produced by hand, you have to up the quality and variety significantly if you want an enjoyable experience for players, especially if the game lacks deformable terrain.
[quote]- Full forests, which I plan to add some variety towards[/quote]
This is vague as well. We needs details on how you intend to implement variety, as well as how generation of plants will occur. If plant placement is static, (not a good idea) what kind of variety will we see? Will there be differences in the type of flora dependent on the terrain, altitude, temperature, humidity, and general atmosphere? Will these distinct plants serve any purpose besides as lumber? If so, what makes this method any more enjoyable than what is found in Wurm Online? What distinct gameplay do you offer besides the simple collection of generic resources? I'm not attempting to be crass with these questions, I am legitimately interested in your intentions in that regard.
[quote]- Day and Night cycles[/quote]
While I understand this is a feature, it has also become a staple of most modern games. It would be silly to lack a day/night cycle, but I'm glad it is implemented. What other sort of weather-based cycles do you intend to implement? You'd be able to diversify the game, and give it more depth, by implementing seasons, weather patterns, and similar system that affect flora and gameplay; systems which don't exist in many other games.
[quote]- Oceans with some pretty decent looking water[/quote]
Oceans should be more than water and ground below a certain altitude; give the ocean some life, some variety. Give oceans a purpose. Give water in general a distinct gameplay element. You never say how the gameplay is meant to feel, so I'm assuming you want to give the players some sort of challenge, otherwise, the game would be boring, and no different than any other survival game that exists right now. Depth and variety add more uniqueness than any other feature.
[quote]- Some static buildings which will eventually make up a town[/quote]
The way you say this makes it sound like there will be one town, and you will go there to sell/trade/etc. What is the purpose of this town? How does it factor in with gameplay? Is it there for anything at all? Hell, is the game survival? Is it about exploration? Building? Survival? You give us no information about your intentions, and all I can see is an empty map with the some very lackluster buildings, but you depict no reasons for those buildings existing. You have worked on terrain and aesthetic elements before even touching gameplay, which is a huge no-no. You need to focus on what you want the gameplay to be, before you worry about trivial things like terrain and buildings; you may later realize you want procedural terrain and buildings in order to enforce unique experiences, but would have to retcon all this previous work because you wasted time making a world for a game that doesn't yet exist. It's a horrible practice that results in a lot of games being unfinished.
[quote]- Multiplayer support
- Functional GUIs[/quote]
I'd hope so. What is the extent of either?
[quote]Upcoming Stuff:
- Harvestable resources, like logs, stones, dirt etc..
- Buildable structures - This is what I want to expand greatly on
- Animals and small plants which can also be harvested
- Crafting system, which will tie in with the building
- Inventory system and clothing[/quote]
I'll consolidate this final statement into a single paragraph, because it seems like your general ideas are incredibly narrow and very "stolen from other games." I agree, no game coined these systems, and making a game with similar gameplay elements is not theft, nor does it make the game a rip-off of another; however, you have to add some sort of distinction between this game and others. The market is plagued by survival games with everything that you describe above. What does this game offer that they don't? In fact, your game detracts most fundamental systems like terrain generation and deformation, which exists in games like Wurm, Minecraft, and 7 Days to Die. You state you want something simple, but if that's so, what makes this game distinct from Minecraft in that regard? Minecraft is as simple as it gets, but this game seems to lack the elements that make Minecraft's simplicity understandable, its building system and aim at younger audiences. These are all fundamental parts of all survival games, RPGs, and most other games as well; Skyrim has all of the above, as do games like Witcher 2, Rust, and DayZ. You need to implement something distinct, unique, and not take the success of these games as basis for your own.
In conclusion, you have provided no evidence of any actual drive or motivation to create anything enjoyable or unique. The reason you've received such negative response is because the work you've shown is easy to replicate in the engine with little effort, and you haven't shown any evidence of the work you say you have finished. Beyond that, you have no ideas that are your own, and nothing to make your game stand out, other than a lack of features that competing games also present. You're also appealing to a casual market, which is already taken by other games. The worst part is you're trying to raise money for this project, but you haven't put in enough work to warrant it, and your ideas are generic and bland, giving no one incentive to donate.
My advice isn't something stupid like "hurr durr rust ripoff go to the rust forums rip-off maker." It's scrap what you've done, and focus on what you want the game to be. Think hard and develop a passion for the game you want to make. Create an idea in your head of what you think a fun game is, and go for that. The fact that you want us to give you ideas shows you have no clear understanding of what you want, and are merely making a game for the sake of making another survival game, or because you're trying to make money from donations despite providing little work, and no unique gameplay; you don't have to work hard, and you get money out of it. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not scamming us with promises of gameplay you know sells, and tell you this: if you really want to make a game for the sake of making a game, work with someone who has vision but lacks coding skills, or one who needs a partner. Allow them to give ideas and insight into how the game should play, while you practice your programming skills so you can implement these ideas. Learn how to make terrain deformation. Give your game unique gameplay elements with complexity and challenge.
It just sounds like you have no desire to make an innovative or original title, and that's something that doesn't go over well with people when you seek donations without providing evidence of work.
[QUOTE=SamuelRowe;43373395]So an example would be like, changing the game graphics so it's constantly in sepia etc?[/QUOTE]
No, no. What I mean is that the sheer concept of a survival game with Minecraft, DayZ elements, etc. is an overused and unoriginal concept now. You need to center the game around an objective that hasn't been claimed.
An example is that Minecraft is about building and exploring and survival. Those are broad concepts, expand on them.
To expand, you need to take an element of a game and create a purpose. In Rust, the game is centered around building in a sustainable environment and surviving. Minecraft, building. DayZ, surviving. Those are the purposes of the game.
Create a purpose within the game. You can't just have a game with survival and building elements, what's the final product then? Center it around a goal of some sort. And yes, sandbox games have goals. To do whatever you wish. If your game is open world, with survival elements, make it so that the game relies on mechanics using survival-type things. The trouble is making it unique.
It's going to be hard to find a way to make the survival open world genre, unique for this.
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Framperton;43373776]Than I'm stupidly confused. What is the difference between procedural and random generation? Are they one in the same? I thought there was some specific characteristic for each.[/QUOTE]
My understanding is that with procedural, someone comes up with a formula that tells a program how to build something (graphics, levels, whatever) whenever it's needed. The point of procedural is that most of the details can be generated on the fly.
Random is literally a randomization of components with no rhyme or reason.
[QUOTE=Framperton;43373776]Than I'm stupidly confused. What is the difference between procedural and random generation? Are they one in the same? I thought there was some specific characteristic for each.[/QUOTE]
I'd imagine that procedural generation refers to anything that's using an algorithm in order to create the world, so you could have a procedural map that isn't random if it's using a seed. Minecraft maps with seeds will generate in the same way every time. Random generation would be different every time.
For the guy that mentioned Wurm, if this took the direction of that niche then it wouldn't really be competing with DayZ and Rust. A slow paced game focused on establishing a town or castle would appeal to people in different ways then running around with guns.
Wurm is very dated but as far as programming goes, I can't imagine the amount of work that went into it. Might be too ambitious, but going that direction would be safe I'd say.
I would buy the shit out of Rust if only it had interesting monsters to be scared of. Not zombies but just weird unique shit that would spawn randomly and have a different probability to spawn. If it were this game, cowering in the corner of my shack with a short sword as something is running around outside would be a P fun experience. Even more so if I never became "too" strong. If there were things out there that I was forced to run from, even if I had high skills.
[B]edit[/B]: Wow, he's actually getting good feedback at this point. Was disappointed with everyone just being shit.
no matter how good your final product ends up being it'll always be seen as "the rust/dayz/minecraft clone." i'm not saying your idea is bad, i'm saying that it's been done a lot so people won't immediately appreciate it.
also if this is your first game i'd recommend toning it down a little bit. start out by making something hella simple like a platformer or a text based adventure game, [I]then[/I] move onto the 3D stuff. take everything i say with a grain of salt; i'm not a game designer and i only know babby-tier coding.
[QUOTE=Framperton;43373776]Than I'm stupidly confused. What is the difference between procedural and random generation? Are they one in the same? I thought there was some specific characteristic for each.[/QUOTE]
Procedural generation means the terrain generates on-the-fly, as you play the game, and follows some sort of algorithm to determine the shape and features of that terrain. Perlin noise algorithms are good examples of simple ones that some terrain generators use. Though like I said, the defining feature is that the terrain is made as you play the game, not made statically beforehand by a developer/mapping artist.
Random generation can be done before the game is released. A mapper clicks a button, or sets some variables, and generates a random world/terrain set, but the map is compiled and finished before it is distributed. Random generation that is done during gameplay is procedural. Similarly, there is no such thing as "true" random generation, because all generation of terrain follows some sort of algorithm or mathematical system to determine the appearance and shape of the terrain and its features, so technically, it's not truly "random terrain." This was done for Daggerfall.
Though we use both phrases interchangeably today, random generation isn't really a "real" type of generation, as nothing in the generation is actually totally random; procedural is usually always used instead, if the terrain generates on-the-fly and requires a set of algorithms, but some people may use the word random generation to apply to the random placement of trees, flora, and buildings, that are generated completely randomly. The game may just pick three numbers, turn it into a coordinate, and shove a building there, and it would be random; although you can argue that the system may limit the generation of these buildings to ground level, it is still as random as it gets.
[editline]31st December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=rovar;43374026]Random is literally a randomization of components with no rhyme or reason.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this. You don't see true random generation almost anywhere, and especially not for terrain.
Probably for trees and such, but even then, clipping prevention usually mean the system is following a procedure to ensure trees don't collide when generating.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;43373996]If you want proper feedback, we need a little more information about what your ideas are. You don't seem to have much of a specific concept you're going for, other than wanting to create a game that takes the gameplay of hit games like DayZ and Minecraft, with the aesthetics of Wurm Online. Torque3D is a decent engine, but it has its limitations; if you don't mind really tweaking it, you can do anything with it, but you'll have to put in a good deal of effort in order to add any unique additions that significantly alter gameplay.
The problem with your mantra is that you want to make the game simple, yet simplicity in and of itself distances the game from uniqueness and fun because there are a plethora of survival games that don't have any complexity. The lack of terraforming is a huge drawback, and with the addition of it, although challenging to implement, would instantly give the game a immense amount of depth that it desperately needs.
[quote]- Full 20KM map, which equals to 400 square KM[quote]
Judging by the photos, the quality of the terrain seems quite low, and the terrain itself is generic and simple. A smaller, more unique setting, is vastly preferable to a large space that lacks any sort of diversity in terms of terrain and flora. The mountains are silly, and the general aesthetic of the setting is bland and empty. You would benefit immensely from some sort of procedural terrain generation, of which there are many methods, but if you are insistent on limiting the terrain to what can be produced by hand, you have to up the quality and variety significantly if you want an enjoyable experience for players, especially if the game lacks deformable terrain.
This is vague as well. We needs details on how you intend to implement variety, as well as how generation of plants will occur. If plant placement is static, (not a good idea) what kind of variety will we see? Will there be differences in the type of flora dependent on the terrain, altitude, temperature, humidity, and general atmosphere? Will these distinct plants serve any purpose besides as lumber? If so, what makes this method any more enjoyable than what is found in Wurm Online? What distinct gameplay do you offer besides the simple collection of generic resources? I'm not attempting to be crass with these questions, I am legitimately interested in your intentions in that regard.
While I understand this is a feature, it has also become a staple of most modern games. It would be silly to lack a day/night cycle, but I'm glad it is implemented. What other sort of weather-based cycles do you intend to implement? You'd be able to diversify the game, and give it more depth, by implementing seasons, weather patterns, and similar system that affect flora and gameplay; systems which don't exist in many other games.
Oceans should be more than water and ground below a certain altitude; give the ocean some life, some variety. Give oceans a purpose. Give water in general a distinct gameplay element. You never say how the gameplay is meant to feel, so I'm assuming you want to give the players some sort of challenge, otherwise, the game would be boring, and no different than any other survival game that exists right now. Depth and variety add more uniqueness than any other feature.
The way you say this makes it sound like there will be one town, and you will go there to sell/trade/etc. What is the purpose of this town? How does it factor in with gameplay? Is it there for anything at all? Hell, is the game survival? Is it about exploration? Building? Survival? You give us no information about your intentions, and all I can see is an empty map with the some very lackluster buildings, but you depict no reasons for those buildings existing. You have worked on terrain and aesthetic elements before even touching gameplay, which is a huge no-no. You need to focus on what you want the gameplay to be, before you worry about trivial things like terrain and buildings; you may later realize you want procedural terrain and buildings in order to enforce unique experiences, but would have to retcon all this previous work because you wasted time making a world for a game that doesn't yet exist. It's a horrible practice that results in a lot of games being unfinished.
I'd hope so. What is the extent of either?
I'll consolidate this final statement into a single paragraph, because it seems like your general ideas are incredibly narrow and very "stolen from other games." I agree, no game coined these systems, and making a game with similar gameplay elements is not theft, nor does it make the game a rip-off of another; however, you have to add some sort of distinction between this game and others. The market is plagued by survival games with everything that you describe above. What does this game offer that they don't? In fact, your game detracts most fundamental systems like terrain generation and deformation, which exists in games like Wurm, Minecraft, and 7 Days to Die. You state you want something simple, but if that's so, what makes this game distinct from Minecraft in that regard? Minecraft is as simple as it gets, but this game seems to lack the elements that make Minecraft's simplicity understandable, its building system and aim at younger audiences. These are all fundamental parts of all survival games, RPGs, and most other games as well; Skyrim has all of the above, as do games like Witcher 2, Rust, and DayZ. You need to implement something distinct, unique, and not take the success of these games as basis for your own.
In conclusion, you have provided no evidence of any actual drive or motivation to create anything enjoyable or unique. The reason you've received such negative response is because the work you've shown is easy to replicate in the engine with little effort, and you haven't shown any evidence of the work you say you have finished. Beyond that, you have no ideas that are your own, and nothing to make your game stand out, other than a lack of features that competing games also present. You're also appealing to a casual market, which is already taken by other games. The worst part is you're trying to raise money for this project, but you haven't put in enough work to warrant it, and your ideas are generic and bland, giving no one incentive to donate.
My advice isn't something stupid like "hurr durr rust ripoff go to the rust forums rip-off maker." It's scrap what you've done, and focus on what you want the game to be. Think hard and develop a passion for the game you want to make. Create an idea in your head of what you think a fun game is, and go for that. The fact that you want us to give you ideas shows you have no clear understanding of what you want, and are merely making a game for the sake of making another survival game, or because you're trying to make money from donations despite providing little work, and no unique gameplay; you don't have to work hard, and you get money out of it. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not scamming us with promises of gameplay you know sells, and tell you this: if you really want to make a game for the sake of making a game, work with someone who has vision but lacks coding skills, or one who needs a partner. Allow them to give ideas and insight into how the game should play, while you practice your programming skills so you can implement these ideas. Learn how to make terrain deformation. Give your game unique gameplay elements with complexity and challenge.
It just sounds like you have no desire to make an innovative or original title, and that's something that doesn't go over well with people when you seek donations without providing evidence of work.[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much!
I am going to use this whole post for reference upon development. Thank you.
But to answer your questions,
- I've never really liked most survival games simply due to the fact that they lacked construction and customization. I was hoping to make a game with RPG elements but on a survival framework.
I'm going to study terrain deformation and use this idea, you were right about limitations. It would be nice to have randomized terrain.
As for the trees, I wanted to add variety and have a northern sort of atmosphere, so the trees would be like conifer types.
[QUOTE=SamuelRowe;43374197]I've never really liked most survival games simply due to the fact that they lacked construction and customization. I was hoping to make a game with RPG elements but on a survival framework. [/QUOTE]
It's a start, but take it further. You want money from us, tell us how you intend to implement construction and customization. What RPG elements are you going to implement? Is it going to be another generic number-crunching DnD GUI-fest with a hundred different panels restricting our gameplay with arbitrary skill points determined by how much we grind to level up our characters? Traditional RPG gameplay is dying as actual player skills has taken the wheel in lieu of the previous systems of random numbers and the like, if you intend on reimplementing an archaic system as such, how will you do so without forcing game to replicate the grindy nature of the MMO, where people achieve skills and points by clicking on enemies or rocks or plants as much as possible so they get better at it? How will you make these RPG elements fun?
[quote]I'm going to study terrain deformation and use this idea, you were right about limitations. It would be nice to have randomized terrain.[/quote]
I'm glad you agree, but don't make it random. Take it somewhere else. If it's your first game, I understand the limitations simply because of your experience, but if you have experience, then why not push towards something different? Why not create a more realistic system of terrain generation, with proper altitude, mountain generation, distinct botanical placement, where the distance from the theoretical equator affects the climate and plant life. If a mod for both Minecraft and Skyrim can do it, you should try to do it too. The worst that can happen is that you become overwhelmed and lose interest, but if you can handle that, and want a challenge, there is no reason not to at least try and implement some semblance of pattern in natural generation.
[quote]As for the trees, I wanted to add variety and have a northern sort of atmosphere, so the trees would be like conifer types.[/quote]
As I said above, you can take this a step further.
In reality, you're honestly only limited by your own skill. You can really do whatever the hell you want if you take the time and effort and I'm telling you now:
[B]Don't settle. [/B] Ever. It's honestly one of the worst things you can do. To avoid settling, make your goals small and push beyond them. It's so much more rewarding.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;43374309]It's a start, but take it further. You want money from us, tell us how you intend to implement construction and customization. What RPG elements are you going to implement? Is it going to be another generic number-crunching DnD GUI-fest with a hundred different panels restricting our gameplay with arbitrary skill points determined by how much we grind to level up our characters? Traditional RPG gameplay is dying as actual player skills has taken the wheel in lieu of the previous systems of random numbers and the like, if you intend on reimplementing an archaic system as such, how will you do so without forcing game to replicate the grindy nature of the MMO, where people achieve skills and points by clicking on enemies or rocks or plants as much as possible so they get better at it? How will you make these RPG elements fun?
I'm glad you agree, but don't make it random. Take it somewhere else. If it's your first game, I understand the limitations simply because of your experience, but if you have experience, then why not push towards something different? Why not create a more realistic system of terrain generation, with proper altitude, mountain generation, distinct botanical placement, where the distance from the theoretical equator affects the climate and plant life. If a mod for both Minecraft and Skyrim can do it, you should try to do it too. The worst that can happen is that you become overwhelmed and lose interest, but if you can handle that, and want a challenge, there is no reason not to at least try and implement some semblance of pattern in natural generation.
As I said above, you can take this a step further.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking for the RPG elements, make it work with stats. Like how GTA SA did it (CJ could gain muscle and punch harder or gain fat and risk a stroke etc) but make these stats deteriorate over time if they were not maintained well enough. Like strength could help chop down trees faster.
For the terrain, I'll look at some things like perlin noise and other stuff to help with this.
The trees will be able to grow from saplings and work like how Wurm Online grew trees, but somewhat faster, but not so fast it looks like Crysis 2.
[QUOTE=SamuelRowe;43374517]I was thinking for the RPG elements, make it work with stats. Like how GTA SA did it (CJ could gain muscle and punch harder or gain fat and risk a stroke etc) but make these stats deteriorate over time if they were not maintained well enough. Like strength could help chop down trees faster.[/QUOTE]
Depending on how you handle it, it could be really annoying, or allow for player specialization. It's a very fine line that is difficult to balance. It's a very challenging issue to address, and it also requires you to niche your player base very early on, and realize that you'll be ostracizing players regardless of what type of gameplay you incorporate. You'll have to learn to take advice from players who enjoy that type of gameplay, without sacrificing your vision, or without letting people who don't like that gameplay, alter it significantly in a way that changes the foundations of the systems. Some people like complexity, others don't; you have to determine which you're trying to appeal to, and take advice from them, because once you start mixing in advice from people who are trying to change your game completely, you lose both your demographic, and the people who weren't into the gameplay you wanted in the first place.
[quote]For the terrain, I'll look at some things like perlin noise and other stuff to help with this.[/quote]
First determine if Torque3D supports it, and if it doesn't, determine the best way to create it yourself. Minecraft uses chunks, dividing the world into 16x16x255 block "chunks," that allow for the consolidation of data and generation. Others, that don't store data in cubes or blocks at all, like Wurm, allow the editing of the vertices of the terrain upon the use of an item, like a shovel, to lower or raise the vertex.
[quote]The trees will be able to grow from saplings and work like how Wurm Online grew trees, but somewhat faster, but not so fast it looks like Crysis 2.[/quote]
Wurm Online suffers from poor aesthetics and an archaic engine. You have the opportunity to start fresh, don't waste it trying to replicate a game that is nearly eight years old. Make the world feel alive; give plants purpose and variety, and implement relationships between all of these natural things. Ethnobotany is also incredibly important.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;43374638]Depending on how you handle it, it could be really annoying, or allow for player specialization. It's a very fine line that is difficult to balance. It's a very challenging issue to address, and it also requires you to niche your player base very early on, and realize that you'll be ostracizing players regardless of what type of gameplay you incorporate. You'll have to learn to take advice from players who enjoy that type of gameplay, without sacrificing your vision, or without letting people who don't like that gameplay, alter it significantly in a way that changes the foundations of the systems. Some people like complexity, others don't; you have to determine which you're trying to appeal to, and take advice from them, because once you start mixing in advice from people who are trying to change your game completely, you lose both your demographic, and the people who weren't into the gameplay you wanted in the first place.
First determine if Torque3D supports it, and if it doesn't, determine the best way to create it yourself. Minecraft uses chunks, dividing the world into 16x16x255 block "chunks," that allow for the consolidation of data and generation. Others, that don't store data in cubes or blocks at all, like Wurm, allow the editing of the vertices of the terrain upon the use of an item, like a shovel, to lower or raise the vertex.
Wurm Online suffers from poor aesthetics and an archaic engine. You have the opportunity to start fresh, don't waste it trying to replicate a game that is nearly eight years old. Make the world feel alive; give plants purpose and variety, and implement relationships between all of these natural things. Ethnobotany is also incredibly important.[/QUOTE]
Thank you man. You're a very supportive person and very helpful.
Just wondering if this is still going considering the IndieGogo is down
[QUOTE=GTbrawlers;43941789]Just wondering if this is still going considering the IndieGogo is down[/QUOTE]
Nope it's been discontinued.
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