Fallout Series Thread V14: When i entered this thread i was hoping there would be more gambling - Games

I think if NV had given players the chance to travel into some Legion territory, past the Fort perhaps, and see for themselves that despite being the more evil option that Legion territory is more secure and generally more stable that it'd actually give them more incentive to side with them. If you dig around a bit you get a pretty good picture of the fact that despite being generally the 'good guys' that the NCR has some glaring issues in regards to things like internal corruption, expansionism and generally poorly managing its forces. Even traveling around you can get a pretty good idea that the NCR is doing a piss poor job of keeping some parts of the Mojave safe. The inherent problem is that despite stuff like that pretty much all we see of the Legion is places like Nipton and them crucifying people, which in comparison to the NCR makes a little bureaucratic corruption and ruthless acquisition of territory not seem that bad. I guess what I'm playing at is if they maybe made it seem like the Legion could actually effectively manage territory and keep it safe that it would make players feel that despite having to do some terrible stuff they were actually working towards a "greater good". The Legion would still be pretty clearly bad, but having some semblance of a moral grey area or redeeming factor seems way better than 'corrupt, inefficient democratic gov vs. marauders in football gear on the verge of fragmenting'.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;41373378]I've always felt New York is so overdone in games. Why doesn't Chicago ever get any love? It's gorgeous, large and sprawling, home to just as much (if not more) culturally, sits on the edge of the Great Lakes, and it's not as crime ridden and grubby as New York. (except for the southern neighborhoods, but we dont talk about them)[/QUOTE] Fallout Tactics Takes place in Chicago

[QUOTE=Archimedes;41385886]I think if NV had given players the chance to travel into some Legion territory, past the Fort perhaps, and see for themselves that despite being the more evil option that Legion territory is more secure and generally more stable that it'd actually give them more incentive to side with them. If you dig around a bit you get a pretty good picture of the fact that despite being generally the 'good guys' that the NCR has some glaring issues in regards to things like internal corruption, expansionism and generally poorly managing its forces. Even traveling around you can get a pretty good idea that the NCR is doing a piss poor job of keeping some parts of the Mojave safe. The inherent problem is that despite stuff like that pretty much all we see of the Legion is places like Nipton and them crucifying people, which in comparison to the NCR makes a little bureaucratic corruption and ruthless acquisition of territory not seem that bad. I guess what I'm playing at is if they maybe made it seem like the Legion could actually effectively manage territory and keep it safe that it would make players feel that despite having to do some terrible stuff they were actually working towards a "greater good". The Legion would still be pretty clearly bad, but having some semblance of a moral grey area or redeeming factor seems way better than 'corrupt, inefficient democratic gov vs. marauders in football gear on the verge of fragmenting'.[/QUOTE] Even if it's a well-maintained, efficient machine for crushing babies, it's still a machine for crushing babies. I know that's a bit of a strange and extreme analogy but do you know what I'm getting at?

[QUOTE=Archimedes;41385886]I think if NV had given players the chance to travel into some Legion territory, past the Fort perhaps, and see for themselves that despite being the more evil option that Legion territory is more secure and generally more stable that it'd actually give them more incentive to side with them. If you dig around a bit you get a pretty good picture of the fact that despite being generally the 'good guys' that the NCR has some glaring issues in regards to things like internal corruption, expansionism and generally poorly managing its forces. Even traveling around you can get a pretty good idea that the NCR is doing a piss poor job of keeping some parts of the Mojave safe. The inherent problem is that despite stuff like that pretty much all we see of the Legion is places like Nipton and them crucifying people, which in comparison to the NCR makes a little bureaucratic corruption and ruthless acquisition of territory not seem that bad. I guess what I'm playing at is if they maybe made it seem like the Legion could actually effectively manage territory and keep it safe that it would make players feel that despite having to do some terrible stuff they were actually working towards a "greater good". The Legion would still be pretty clearly bad, but having some semblance of a moral grey area or redeeming factor seems way better than 'corrupt, inefficient democratic gov vs. marauders in football gear on the verge of fragmenting'.[/QUOTE] Invading armies always perform evil - there's more than enough examples in history from the Sack of Constantinople to the Nanking Massacre. I think you're correct with this idea. The Legion would run around performing horrible acts of atrocity because that's what barbaric invading armies do. The civilization behind the war front could be an uncomfortable kind of utopia - brand new good quality roads and housing, water and other kinds of infrastructure, well kept public gardens etc. Built by slave labour and the deaths of thousands (cf Saint Petersburg), but civilization nonetheless. Would make a nice contrast to the rest of the wasteland where people live in bombed out radioactive homes and haven't even bothered patching the roof or sweeping the floors in 200 years.

I want a Fallout game where the two big factions aren't just "good guys" and "bad guys".

Personally I refuse to support any faction that uses Mass Rape as a battle tactic and treats women as nothing more than baby factories. And it's outright canon that Women are treated like shit and brutalized throughout the Legion, not just the Frontlines of the War.

[QUOTE=FullStreak12;41386593]I want a Fallout game where the two big factions aren't just "good guys" and "bad guys".[/QUOTE] I want a 3D Fallout game where I have any reason to give any sort of shit about the main quest

anyone have vault mp ?

the pimpboy is op

[QUOTE=Loriborn;41373378]I've always felt New York is so overdone in games. Why doesn't Chicago ever get any love? It's gorgeous, large and sprawling, home to just as much (if not more) culturally, sits on the edge of the Great Lakes, and it's not as crime ridden and grubby as New York. (except for the southern neighborhoods, but we dont talk about them)[/QUOTE] new york city would be perfect for a fallout game "the empire wasteland" dlc could be the burroughs/long island and coast of jersey (imagine going into the colgate building for lulz) besides, it would be similar to the pitt.

[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;41386358]Even if it's a well-maintained, efficient machine for crushing babies, it's still a machine for crushing babies. I know that's a bit of a strange and extreme analogy but do you know what I'm getting at?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=QueenSasha24;41386670]Personally I refuse to support any faction that uses Mass Rape as a battle tactic and treats women as nothing more than baby factories. And it's outright canon that Women are treated like shit and brutalized throughout the Legion, not just the Frontlines of the War.[/QUOTE] The Legion is undeniably terrible in both it's actions and its overall mission as an entity, no matter how noble they try to make it out to be with their "weed out the weak, leave only the strong so we can all collectively survive" thing. I'm not trying to condone any of their tactics or make it seem that by entering their territory and seeing that it actually functions internally that it somehow absolves them of being evil so much as I am trying to argue that if players were presented with the possibility of seeing what Legion territory actually looks like that it would provide some kind of tangible reason to join them past just wanting to dress up as a football player and hit things with a machete or play a raider archetype. By joining the Legion in the standard game players are essentially agreeing with or at least believing that by aiding the Legion take over the Mojave that that is the right thing to do, despite the fact that pretty much all encounters with the Legion don't really support this fact and the whole thing comes off as a bit two dimensional considering all we see the Legion do is murder murder murder. Perhaps this is just my personal gripe though at what I perceive to be wasted potential and a spot of lazy writing.

Honestly the Legion is more akin to the barbarians that the Romans fought against if anything.

[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;41386670]Personally I refuse to support any faction that uses Mass Rape as a battle tactic and treats women as nothing more than baby factories. And it's outright canon that Women are treated like shit and brutalized throughout the Legion, not just the Frontlines of the War.[/QUOTE] Indeed, I'm certainly not disagreeing with that; the point is how the game makers could have improved the Legion as a faction and made them more interesting, as well as making them an actually plausible option for the player to side with. There's a lot of stupid shit about the Legion that's "outright canon" because they didn't have the time/bother to make them anything other than Obviously Evil. How they treat women is one of the first things I'd want to change, not least because half the players/player characters are women. [editline]10th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=kaine123;41387206]Honestly the Legion is more akin to the barbarians that the Romans fought against if anything.[/QUOTE] Maybe the Roman perception of the barbarians.

The Legion lacks depth because Bethesda took away a year and a half's worth of development time and rushed the shit out of them.

If you speak to Caesar, you get a glimpse into what you might have seen in Legion territory.

[QUOTE=zombojoe;41388128]If you speak to Caesar, you get a glimpse into what you might have seen in Legion territory.[/QUOTE] It seemed like Caesar was the only intelligent person in the Legion, everyone else just followed blindly, which seemed a bit weird. I wonder what would have happened if New Vegas got the development time it needed, I don't know of literally a single person who sided with the Legion.

speech is so good in this game something about beating the [sp]legion with nothing but words[/sp] feels great

[QUOTE=Samiam22;41389021]It seemed like Caesar was the only intelligent person in the Legion, everyone else just followed blindly, which seemed a bit weird.[/quote] They didn't have much of a choice, though, given how the legion is formed. They either follow blindly or they die. [quote] I don't know of literally a single person who sided with the Legion.[/QUOTE] I haven't either. I came kinda close at one point, but I aborted when I got the quest "don't tread on the bear".

Legion vs NCR vs House/Independent is just the traditional rpg choice between wrong, less wrong and the golden middle road compromise which makes almost everyone happy without too much more effort.

Its just a video game, you know. Nobodies gonna cut your head off for joining the Legion. The games all about fantasy, too. Be whatever and don't let your morality hold you back.

[QUOTE=Falchion;41391434]Legion vs NCR vs House/Independent is just the traditional rpg choice between wrong, less wrong and the golden middle road compromise which makes almost everyone happy without too much more effort.[/QUOTE] but House is at the least greedy, i'd hardly call that the "golden middle road compromise"

Independant Vegas best Vegas [sub][sub][sub][sub]unless your character's a dick[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Personally I quite liked how they made the factions in NV. All of them are bad choices and even an independent vegas is potentially a bad choice. It's a good way of showing that the people of the Mojave are probably not going to benefit that much at all, no matter which faction is in control.

Mr.House was always the best. Something about the NCR that makes me feel they are the bad guys.

[QUOTE=cdr248;41393072]Mr.House was always the best. Something about the NCR that makes me feel they are the bad guys.[/QUOTE] I felt Mr. House and the NCR were both basically the same in terms of how 'evil' they are. Both have some good ideas but aren't concerned terribly with helping out the Mojave unless it somehow benefits them.

With House or Independent you have the chance to bring about true prosperity in the Mojave. NCR will tax the snot out of everyone and annex everything just because they can.

So is the problem here the Legion's goals or its presentation?

[QUOTE=Overwatch 7;41393488]So is the problem here the Legion's goals or its presentation?[/QUOTE] It's the Legion's "everything". As someone said, they're more like the barbarians Rome fought than actual Romans.

I can see why some may support the Legion, though the presentation in the game leaves much to be desired. [URL="http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/325677464040792162"]I found this pretty interesting.[/URL] [QUOTE="Chris Avellone"]The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control. While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people. [B]The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).[/B] In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).[/QUOTE] It is also important to keep in mind that the Legion we see is not the 'final product', at least according to Caesar. He claims that the conflict with NCR is not just physical, but ideological. The Legion will be changed by this clash. Should the Legion be victorious, Caesar will have his Rome and the Legion will no longer be a nomadic army of assimilated tribes, but a true standing civilization. Again, according to Caesar. In short: The Legion provides order, security, and stability at the cost of personal freedom. The NCR brings democracy and fair rule of law to all, however it comes with all of its flaws and potential for corruption. House promises the stars, and seems to actually have the brains and resources take us there; however, his methods work with the cold ruthless calculation of a machine and his own hubris can be an issue. Wild Card is just that, a wild card. It's determined by the nature and choices of the Courier.

[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;41393289] Legion playthrough is like roleplaying as a retard who doesn't know better.[/QUOTE] I wish caesar weren't so two dimensional. Lots of potential for a strong character, but they just made him sort of a dick. Legate Lanius is really the only interesting Legion character but you only get to talk to him at the end of the game.