[QUOTE=cheetahben;41792154]
-oh my dear christ-
You and me both[/QUOTE]
I laughed way too fucking hard at this
I swear that post gets bigger every time I come back into this thread.
I thought my chrome had a brain-fart at first
quickly lets keep complaining about it so we get to the next page fast
I want to enjoy it personally
I don't, personally.
i personally challenge flubadoo to beat me as volibear in a 1v1
[editline]11th August 2013[/editline]
though i'm not really personally doing it since i'm posting it here
I could beat flubadoo playing lee sin as full AP sorak- [B]OH WAIT SOMEONES DONE IT ALREADY[/B]
Even though she dicked on all of us.
Ehh...
what was morello's point against having Invoker in LoL?
I've been playing him in DOTA and he is a really cool hero.
Anti fun. But the real reason why someone like invoker isn't ever going to be in league is because they don't work well. I'm not talking about his ability mixing, but rather the amount of abilities. It would be a nightmare with scaling items. And a champ like that would be far too versatile in league. What would you set his scalings to? Given that invoker can invoke faster than an ability comes off cooldown, it gives you the option to play around with many spells in league. It's harder to do in dota because mana management is a lot different, but if you are able to spam spells as you do in leauge you would become too strong.
TL:DR too hard to play, too hard to balance
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;41793651]what was morello's point against having Invoker in LoL?
I've been playing him in DOTA and he is a really cool hero.[/QUOTE]
"too much micro to learn how to play and how to play against".
People are still whining about Thresh. They'd go absolutely insane if an Invoker was added.
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;41793651]what was morello's point against having Invoker in LoL?
I've been playing him in DOTA and he is a really cool hero.[/QUOTE]
[quote=Morello]Invoker is a clear example of too far, and the fun-to-anti-fun ratio is heavily skewed. Simply put, your own fun can't come at such a large WTF expense of others.
There are a lot of decisions to make without putting in mechanics that require an encyclopedic knowledge to do basic functions. You want to provide depth and mastery opportunities, but not at the cost of all else.
Games don't have to be simple to be successful, but they do have to be pretty understandable, and you already are taking for granted the pretty complex ruleset MOBAs have as a rule.
To me, a lot of players will ask specifically for more complex things, or less understandable things (at worst, specifically things aimed at being unintuitive, which reeks only of elitism) and while I'm sure some people do want those exact things, the actionable feedback for me is "we want characters who are deep and provide a memorable, unique play experience." We have some characters who hit this on the nose - Anivia, Rammus, Alistar being a few of my favorite examples. They have memorable and distinct play patterns, but aren't confusing or convoluted for the sake of it.
Invoker is actually the worst example for a few reasons: not only is he overloaded with tedious memorization and is baffling to anything but veteran players, he's actually not deep. Due to the sheer number of possible combinations, only a few are actually useful generally, but doing those requires a ritual to obtain. At the end of the day, your decision-making isn't really increased by much, but you get all the associated issues. [/quote]
[url]http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=19997539#19997539[/url]
[url]http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=4889416#post4889416[/url]
[editline]11th August 2013[/editline]
there's a ton of other shit too, just google "morello invoker"
Since there isn't a thread for it yet, imma ask it here: Anyone played Dawngate yet? EA's new upcoming game, in closed beta. I just finished my first game.
Gotta say, it looked [I]incredibly[/I] League-like when it comes to abilities and artsyle. Voice acting was a bit crap, items were confusing as hell and the lack of heroes is something that might need getting used to, but at least the menu theme is really fucking good.
so basically morello's saying that invoker is too hard and that's why he's not in league
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41793787]so basically morello's saying that invoker is too hard and that's why he's not in league[/QUOTE]
read the last paragraph of my quote
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41793787]so basically morello's saying that invoker is too hard and that's why he's not in league[/QUOTE]
This all falls into 'we like our players to not have to learn EVERYTHING about a champion just so they can beat said champion'.
[QUOTE=ashxu;41793801]read the last paragraph of my quote[/QUOTE]
yeah i've read a lot of stuff that morello has posted about the subject, and all of his reasons have always been outright retarded
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41793877]yeah i've read a lot of stuff that morello has posted about the subject, and all of his reasons have always been outright retarded[/QUOTE]
"wel hes dum lol"
thank you for your well thought out argument, it clearly shows your expertise in the genre
[editline]11th August 2013[/editline]
let's say if riot designed jayce so that you had to press 5 random keys on your keyboard (that weren't clustered together) to activate one skill. They could justify it by saying Jayce needs to calibrate his hammer gun each time or something. Would that be a good champion design?
He's now incredibly complex, happy?
it's 4 am here and i'd rather not spend too much time arguing on the internet about the same thing we've discussed many, MANY times
[QUOTE=ashxu;41793801]read the last paragraph of my quote[/QUOTE]
that doesnt even have anything to do with the argument against putting something like that in lol, its just saying that the dota invoker has only a few useful combinations. whats stopping them from making sure that all or most of the combinations would be good, but in a situational way that would make you pick and choose the best ones for the current situation?
with you always defending riot, of course
gah automerge
Discussed? Most of the time it's just "well yeah league is casual shit morello is silver noob"
I once thought up of a champion which would work somewhat similar to Invoker, Udyr and Lee Sin. 3 basic stances or basic spells, and when you press R your ult does something based on the last 2 spells you used. Whatever was the last spell used also adds extra bonus to the ultimate.
Q - Spell X, possibly offensive
W - Spell Y, possibly defensive
E - Spell Z, possibly supportive
R - Combine last 2 casted spells
Q + W = A spell with both a defensive and offensive part, such as an attack that reduces enemy damage output. If you casted W first and Q after, your spell does more damage, if you casted Q first and W after your spell reduces more of the enemy stats.
[QUOTE=Shortyish;41794012]that doesnt even have anything to do with the argument against putting something like that in lol, its just saying that the dota invoker has only a few useful combinations. whats stopping them from making sure that all or most of the combinations would be good, but in a situational way that would make you pick and choose the best ones for the current situation?[/QUOTE]
as wtf nuke said (seriously, just read), having every tool in the shed would be too strong. Jayce already sorta fits in this catagory and you know how he is
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41794014]with you always defending riot, of course
gah automerge[/QUOTE]
go to sleep and come back when you have something meaningful to say
but ok let me try to put it in a few words
there's different champions, different playstyles. someone who's starting to play as ad carries might want to go for tristana or ashe, someone who likes a high risk high reward playstyle might want to go for draven, and someone who likes a little more versatility can go for ezreal, maybe.
there's over 80 champions in the game. there's thousands of people who play it. EVERYONE has a different playstyle. there's always been champions that are harder to play, why not make another one that could be even harder, but would pay off? i dont see how thats a problem? for morello in that quote you posted, his only reason not to make a champion like that is because it'd be hard, but i think its pretty clear that the real motive is that LoL is a more casual game than dota. rage all you want but its true, and its pretty clear that riot is afraid of doing risky stuff, which is why they release so many "safe" champions, like when they scrapped that one ranged monster guy and instead chose to release the oh-so-original riven, and they did give shitty reasons for that too.
even if they've gotten a lot better with doing that kind of stuff, releasing an invoker-like champion would be too risky and not something riot would do.
[editline]11th August 2013[/editline]
that was not at all a few words but meh
[QUOTE=Bordellimies;41794044]I once thought up of a champion which would work somewhat similar to Invoker, Udyr and Lee Sin. 3 basic stances or basic spells, and when you press R your ult does something based on the last 2 spells you used. Whatever was the last spell used also adds extra bonus to the ultimate.
Q - Spell X, possibly offensive
W - Spell Y, possibly defensive
E - Spell Z, possibly supportive
R - Combine last 2 casted spells
Q + W = A spell with both a defensive and offensive part, such as an attack that reduces enemy damage output. If you casted W first and Q after, your spell does more damage, if you casted Q first and W after your spell reduces more of the enemy stats.[/QUOTE]
this would probably fall into the catagory of having too versatile although I can sorta see something like this working. If he was a melee fighter, pressing Q would ready his fist, pressing Q again would give it more damage, Q+W gives him lifesteal or armor on hit and pressing Q+E gives him a slow
Q-Q damage (red fist)
Q-W defensive stats (blue fist)
Q-E crowd control (yellow?)
idk, just thinking out loud
[editline]11th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41794103]but ok let me try to put it in a few words
there's different champions, different playstyles. someone who's starting to play as ad carries might want to go for tristana or ashe, someone who likes a high risk high reward playstyle might want to go for draven, and someone who likes a little more versatility can go for ezreal, maybe.
there's over 80 champions in the game. there's thousands of people who play it. EVERYONE has a different playstyle. there's always been champions that are harder to play, why not make another one that could be even harder, but would pay off?[/QUOTE]
Because if there was a champion that is hard to play but is OP or really really good then that's just fucking stupid. If we went by your philosophy then the gap between good and bad players would be huge and also making a lot of champions worthless in higher levels. Difficulty isn't a direct correlation with power.
[editline]11th August 2013[/editline]
A game should be as deep as possible while trying to be the least complex as possible.
The quote:[quote=Morello]
Invoker is actually the worst example for a few reasons: not only is he overloaded with tedious memorization and is baffling to anything but veteran players, he's actually not deep. Due to the sheer number of possible combinations, only a few are actually useful generally, but doing those requires a ritual to obtain. At the end of the day, your decision-making isn't really increased by much, but you get all the associated issues.[/quote]
Is mainly talking about "elegance in game design" which can be talked about here:
(not all of it is relevant but the core idea is)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI4Gs9Gt2Iw[/media]
[QUOTE=ashxu;41794112]Because if there was a champion that is hard to play but is OP or really really good then that's just fucking stupid. If we went by your philosophy then the gap between good and bad players would be huge and also making a lot of champions worthless in higher levels. Difficulty isn't a direct correlation with power.[/QUOTE]
wtf, when did i say he's supposed to be op? and that philosophy is even riot's. in fact it isnt even a philosophy, it's just common sense. difficulty isnt a correlation with power? is that why tristana, who has no skillshots doesnt deal a lot of damage early on and instead needs farm to shine late game, while draven, who has to concentrate on catching his axes while not having terribad positioning (thus being much harder to play than trist), deals much more damage without a lot of items? thats just straight up high-risk-high-reward. maybe that's how they'd need to make LoL's invoker in order for him to be balanced, but you're foolishly believing that the biggest problem a team of professionals with quite a bit of experience have is making him balanced, and not receiving a bad response from their more casual fanbase.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;41793554]I could beat flubadoo playing lee sin as full AP sorak- [B]OH WAIT SOMEONES DONE IT ALREADY[/B]
Even though she dicked on all of us.
Ehh...[/QUOTE]
Hey I carried u
Be grateful"",
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41794239]wtf, when did i say he's supposed to be op? and that philosophy is even riot's. in fact it isnt even a philosophy, it's just common sense. difficulty isnt a correlation with power? is that why tristana, who has no skillshots doesnt deal a lot of damage early on and instead needs farm to shine late game, while draven, who has to concentrate on catching his axes while not having terribad positioning (thus being much harder to play than trist), deals much more damage without a lot of items? thats just straight up high-risk-high-reward. maybe that's how they'd need to make LoL's invoker in order for him to be balanced, but you're foolishly believing that the biggest problem a team of professionals with quite a bit of experience have is making him balanced, and not receiving a bad response from their more casual fanbase.[/QUOTE]
uh tristana and draven just do different things. You pick Tristana for her late game power (especially her mad deeps) while you pick Draven for his laning. Not to mention there's champions like Blitzcrank who are really simple (run, hook, punch and ult) yet they're really good.
ok let's go by your logic again, complexity = power
so can you tell me that invoker is the strongest hero in dota?
Almost ever hero is wtf factor to any new player if they never bother to look them up
Eg
Fiddle wtf 50 seconds I can't control my guy? Wtf that damag
Lissandra - wtf I can't target her?
Karthus wtf I thought I kil him?
And once they die to a hero once, they are compelled to eventually look up their abilities and be like - oh rofl I'm retarded here I'll try doing x to avoids die next time
I did the same thing with invoker once i died once to him, and unless u have short term memory it's really easy to remember his abilities, and I only players invoker once in a custom wtf mode game, still remember almost all of the combos - very easy to remember after using a spell just a few times. Don't we why people are so scared of a few pretty easy combinations (that also work thematically, like sunstrike is obviously gonna be 3 exort fire, and cold snap obviously gonna be thee ice, deafening blast obviously all three be because it is not really an element, etc).
Invoker was fun as shit, the sense of wonder, being so versatile and cool with 9 spells was just awesome.
That said, he wouldn't work in lol because of how scaling works, and a champion like him would have to end up using almost all of its abilities to kill a single person in order to be balanced for LoL, and if he fell behind, it would feel stupid to have nine useless abilities. It would be hard to balance.
But, that's IMO the onl real reason it wouldn't work. Invoker is amazingly designed for dota, but would take some effort to get a similar person in league without feeling underwhelming.
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