D&D General v3 - Games - Facepunch Forum

[QUOTE=Aperture fan;40396305]Read that not too long ago. Long, but absolutely amazing read. I want to get some 40k books, mainly those regarding the Horus Heresy, and I can't help but wonder if they're anything like the story of Grendel.[/QUOTE] If you want a story like Grendel, consider the Caiaphus Cain books. They've also got an unlikely hero winning against the grimdark universe. [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] Also, what's this I hear about D&D Next first having a completely broken skill system, and now having skills as something COMPLETELY OPTIONAL? What the christ is Wizards of the Coast smoking that would make them think that this is a good idea [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] [url=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130422][cries internally][/url]

[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;40396393]If you want a story like Grendel, consider the Caiaphus Cain books. They've also got an unlikely hero winning against the grimdark universe. [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] Also, what's this I hear about D&D Next first having a completely broken skill system, and now having skills as something COMPLETELY OPTIONAL? What the christ is Wizards of the Coast smoking that would make them think that this is a good idea [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] [url=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130422][cries internally][/url][/QUOTE] A level 20 ranger who's dedicated all of his skills and feats to rope climbing will fail the most difficult climbing challenge, an oiled rope, 90% of the time. Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, only has slightly better than even odds of inspiring his troops to do anything with a given try. It is completely impossible for him to identify unique monsters- such as himself or the other demons and devils with which he deals. He cannot break down a reinforced door, nor can he burst out of iron chains. A level 1 paladin can convince Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, of literally anything more than half the time. The absurdity of his argument does not matter, thanks to his starting feat. They basically made it so you only get rerolls instead of numerical bonuses but kept the same magnitude of difficulty from the previous editions. It's fucking hilariously sad

And the fact it looks like Skills are going to be optional means I wouldn't be surprised if they're released in a seperate book you have to pay for. Releasing skills as optional tabletop DLC. I can't say I'd be surprised as I always knew it'd come to this. [quote]Skills and Backgrounds: A DM's Tool Our attention now turns to skills. If feats are where we're containing complexity, where does that leave skills? Up to this point, we used backgrounds as a way to deliver skills. We've determined, though, that skills as a situational bonus have run into a few challenges. The idea of a static, increasing numerical bonus runs counter to our aim to prevent bonus inflation. The skills are awkward at the table. Some DMs still ask for a "Spot check" or other named skill. Veteran players know what that means, but new players are lost. They might not have a Spot skill anywhere on their character sheets. We'd like the DM to only ever worry about asking for an ability check. The skill die mechanic really doesn't address either point. It reins in the bonus somewhat, but people who like skills find it isn't big enough. It also does nothing to address awkwardness at the table, since DMs still need to be clear about what kind of check they are looking for. Playtest feedback shows people have been really happy with skills as part of a background. Their open-ended nature and flexibility have proven popular. So, how do we handle this?[/quote] Rolling spot checks is too hard for today's D&D players

WotC confirmed for driving itself into the ground grab your 3.5 core books and hold on tight friends

[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;40395433][url=http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Guy_Who_Cried_Grendel]Grendel is the patron saint of these characters.[/url] And that's just part 1.[/QUOTE] this needs to be a movie

[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;40396763]And the fact it looks like Skills are going to be optional means I wouldn't be surprised if they're released in a seperate book you have to pay for. Releasing skills as optional tabletop DLC. I can't say I'd be surprised as I always knew it'd come to this. Rolling spot checks is too hard for today's D&D players[/QUOTE] FFS no, skills aren't going to be released separately. It's [B]OPTIONAL.[/B] Meaning it will likely be in the first Player's Handbook but as an option, not a requirement. How exactly is WotC driving itself into the ground for allowing DMs such as myself, who isn't a big fan of skills in the first place, have an option to use skills or not? How dare they not provide a strict, concrete code for dictating to you how you must run your game. [quote]A level 20 ranger who's dedicated all of his skills and feats to rope climbing will fail the most difficult climbing challenge, an oiled rope, 90% of the time. Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, only has slightly better than even odds of inspiring his troops to do anything with a given try. It is completely impossible for him to identify unique monsters- such as himself or the other demons and devils with which he deals. He cannot break down a reinforced door, nor can he burst out of iron chains. A level 1 paladin can convince Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, of literally anything more than half the time. The absurdity of his argument does not matter, thanks to his starting feat.[/quote] Right, try doing those stuff with a DM that knows what they're doing. I as a DM am going to assume that, rules be damned, Asmodeus can and will be able to shatter doors, not take bullshit from a level 1 paladin, and know about all of the monsters about the domain he freakin' created. Next is not being made with the intent to dictate to players and DMs what they [I]must[/I] use in order to have a fun game. They're giving you a toolbox to use as you wish. I suggest you guys try the game before passing judgement on it, and remember [I]it's still in playtesting[/I]. I'm not saying Next is perfect. I've played in a few games of it and I've ran a few games for it, and I have my own gripes for it. But do you really think that saying "oh man WotC is totally finished this time, the whole thing's broken" is fair if you've never even tried the playtest material? Not [I]read[/I] the playtest material, actually [I]use[/I] it.

frankly the fact that WotC would even [I]suggest[/I] a system like that is problem enough in my eyes. but regardless, just read the whole Grendel story. Holy shit, badass enough to not only become a living saint using only a knife and his wit, but also badass enough to become -canon- fuckin' hell man

[QUOTE]The skills are awkward at the table. Some DMs still ask for a "Spot check" or other named skill. Veteran players know what that means, but new players are lost. They might not have a Spot skill anywhere on their character sheets. We'd like the DM to only ever worry about asking for an ability check.[/QUOTE] I don't care about the next versions of D&D, as I'm a 3.5 (and Pathfinder) man and won't play newer versions anyways -- but I feel this particular part is simply ridiculous. This kind of scenario has happened to me in the past, here's how it went almost word for word: DM: "Make a Spot check." Player: "What's a Spot check?" DM: "It's a skill you use to determine if you are capable of seeing something you normally wouldn't without focusing on it, like trying to see an invisible enemy for example. Think Predator, you can see it if you try hard enough, but if you just pass your eyes over it you're not likely to see it hidden there; this skill is you trying hard to see it, essentially. It's used for other things too, we'll cover those eventually, but you get the idea." Player: "I don't have it on my sheet? I didn't know it was a thing when I made my guy." DM: "Let me see the sheet and I'll show you how to add it and get the required score, then you'll know for future characters." Wow, that was so difficult to explain. Do they just think all DM's are going to be enough of an asshole to let new players in and not have the patience to explain things to them? That's all I get from this; that and they think too many people are too stupid to comprehend the concept of "spot".

[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;40397541]Right, try doing those stuff with a DM that knows what they're doing. I as a DM am going to assume that, rules be damned, Asmodeus can and will be able to shatter doors, not take bullshit from a level 1 paladin, and know about all of the monsters about the domain he freakin' created.[/QUOTE] If you have to change the rules so that they function. Then they're broken.

Yeah, I've nothing against editing the rules to help the flow of your own campaign but that then raises the question as to why you don't just remove the aspects from an older system and go for that. If you have to change them or make exceptions just to keep playing then that means there's a serious design flaw. I guess I'm just used to skills being a vital part of D&D and I find it odd that what used to be a core mechanic can appear to be as broken as it is.

[QUOTE=Axznma;40398567]I don't care about the next versions of D&D, as I'm a 3.5 (and Pathfinder) man and won't play newer versions anyways -- but I feel this particular part is simply ridiculous. This kind of scenario has happened to me in the past, here's how it went almost word for word: DM: "Make a Spot check." Player: "What's a Spot check?" DM: "It's a skill you use to determine if you are capable of seeing something you normally wouldn't without focusing on it, like trying to see an invisible enemy for example. Think Predator, you can see it if you try hard enough, but if you just pass your eyes over it you're not likely to see it hidden there; this skill is you trying hard to see it, essentially. It's used for other things too, we'll cover those eventually, but you get the idea." Player: "I don't have it on my sheet? I didn't know it was a thing when I made my guy." DM: "Let me see the sheet and I'll show you how to add it and get the required score, then you'll know for future characters." Wow, that was so difficult to explain. Do they just think all DM's are going to be enough of an asshole to let new players in and not have the patience to explain things to them? That's all I get from this; that and they think too many people are too stupid to comprehend the concept of "spot".[/QUOTE]This is why I like GURPS because if you didn't invest points into it, then it's just a check with your base stat. No confusion no fuss. [sp]Also I can make people perform unfair HT or Will checks[/sp] :v: [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] Am I a terrible person?

So, is there any good free DnD 4e Character Building program available? I've tried Hero Lab but for some reason it doesn't show the classes, races, etc. PCGen doesn't have DnD 4e because it isn't Open Content and I can't seem to find any datasets for it. Then there's the WotC one but you need a DnD insider subscription and the old one that runs off an exe file isn't up to date and only lets you create characters up to level 3.

[QUOTE=DeanWinchester;40407337]So, is there any good free DnD 4e Character Building program available? I've tried Hero Lab but for some reason it doesn't show the classes, races, etc. PCGen doesn't have DnD 4e because it isn't Open Content and I can't seem to find any datasets for it. Then there's the WotC one but you need a DnD insider subscription and the old one that runs off an exe file isn't up to date and only lets you create characters up to level 3.[/QUOTE][url=http://www.pathguy.com/cg4.htm]This one[/url] is pretty alright if you can look past the loading times that would make STALKER look like a few ticks of the second hand.

[QUOTE=DeanWinchester;40407337]So, is there any good free DnD 4e Character Building program available? I've tried Hero Lab but for some reason it doesn't show the classes, races, etc. PCGen doesn't have DnD 4e because it isn't Open Content and I can't seem to find any datasets for it. Then there's the WotC one but you need a DnD insider subscription and the old one that runs off an exe file isn't up to date and only lets you create characters up to level 3.[/QUOTE] For Hero Lab: [QUOTE]The 4th Edition mechanics data files are included with the Authoring Kit data package. They include only the 4th edition game mechanics, and no copyrighted content. A downloader is provided to allow you to download free content from D&D Insider, or subscriber content with the provision of a username and password. Note that some of the features described below require subscriber data to be used.[/QUOTE] As for PCGen, that's a pretty well dead program these days for D&D stuff. 4e has its own official programs, and Hero Lab claimed the throne with 3.5 (and is now the official Pathfinder character generator). So there's little reason for people that play those to go through the effort of making anything extensive for PCGen in D&D terms. You probably won't find much for 4e outside of the official stuff, it didn't have the same mass following 3.5/Pathfinder did and thusly hasn't had as many people dedicating themselves to supporting it. Now with the next version around the corner I have a feeling 4e will simply fade away from the general populations conscious.

I don't see the point in character generators, most of them are more of a pain in the ass to get working than memorising the rules is.

[QUOTE=Rents;40408744]I don't see the point in character generators, most of them are more of a pain in the ass to get working than memorising the rules is.[/QUOTE] The only game i've used one for is GURPS, and that was mostly because it also doubled as a much better sheet than I could find anywhere else.

A generator is useful for Eclipse Phase because of all the numbers you're working with.

[QUOTE=Rents;40408744]I don't see the point in character generators, most of them are more of a pain in the ass to get working than memorising the rules is.[/QUOTE] the one for 4e is nice because it collects literally every race/class/power/feat/item/etc in one place and it crunches all of the numbers for you it's a pretty big time saver for me [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] I mean there's no number crunching that's actually difficult, but it still consumes more time doing it manually

I need some help with a boss fight for some starting DH characters its the end of a one-shot, so they've some equipment, but I want something more interesting than "LEL DEMON" anyone got any ideas?

[QUOTE=Salsa;40409156]the one for 4e is nice because it collects literally every race/class/power/feat/item/etc in one place and it crunches all of the numbers for you it's a pretty big time saver for me [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] I mean there's no number crunching that's actually difficult, but it still consumes more time doing it manually[/QUOTE] Any I've tried using are a complete pain in the arse to get to do anything :v: [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;40409235]I need some help with a boss fight for some starting DH characters its the end of a one-shot, so they've some equipment, but I want something more interesting than "LEL DEMON" anyone got any ideas?[/QUOTE] Reveal that they are the demons.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;40409235]I need some help with a boss fight for some starting DH characters its the end of a one-shot, so they've some equipment, but I want something more interesting than "LEL DEMON" anyone got any ideas?[/QUOTE] A Genestealer Patriarch or something like that? [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] If it's a one off have the party declared traitors and have them go up against either the local government or maybe even a rival Inquisitor.

[QUOTE=Rents;40409239]Any I've tried using are a complete pain in the arse to get to do anything :v: [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] Reveal that they are the demons.[/QUOTE] in the middle of describing the ending scene, just scream at the top of my voice "BUT YOU ARE THE DEMONS" drop paper, walk out of room [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=RearAdmiral;40409350]A Genestealer Patriarch or something like that? [editline]24th April 2013[/editline] If it's a one off have the party declared traitors and have them go up against either the local government or maybe even a rival Inquisitor.[/QUOTE] oh man that's actually a pretty good idea I might have them declared tainted

[QUOTE=Rents;40408744]I don't see the point in character generators, most of them are more of a pain in the ass to get working than memorising the rules is.[/QUOTE] They're very nice if you're going to be playing online, or even in person. Paper is hard to modify cleanly, and eventually you're going to run out of room to write and need to start lugging around extra baggage. Generators (the good ones) don't have that problem. As a DM I don't accept non-Hero Lab characters anymore for 3.5/Pathfinder, being able to load up their character from its base (and not simply the finished sheet) and make adjustments as we go along is such a time saver. I especially like the journal because it makes it easy for me to keep a chronological track record of their characters history. [IMG]http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2268/screenshot2013042414010.png[/IMG] They just save you time and speed along otherwise redundant processes. True though that they can limit your characters because of the engines limitation; however I use house rules outside of the generator to get around most of them. The hard part is finding good generators for the more obscure systems.

I'm going to start a play-by-post pathfinder game for anyone on here. What forum should I put it in?

[QUOTE=InUndenial;40410351]I'm going to start a play-by-post pathfinder game for anyone on here. What forum should I put it in?[/QUOTE] I would think either Fast Threads or Games In Progress.

[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;40397541]Right, try doing those stuff with a DM that knows what they're doing. I as a DM am going to assume that, rules be damned, Asmodeus can and will be able to shatter doors, not take bullshit from a level 1 paladin, and know about all of the monsters about the domain he freakin' created. Next is not being made with the intent to dictate to players and DMs what they [I]must[/I] use in order to have a fun game.[/QUOTE] I think you strongly underestimate how many DMs there are who refuse to do anything that isn't supported by the ruleset. One of the DMs I've played under absolutely refused to do anything that wasn't explicitly in the rulebooks. Not even so much as skewing a roll because he thought that a party of 5 players with 3 melee characters, one archer, and one mage would be able to take on a white dragon (juvenile I think) which he refused to keep in place long enough for the melee characters to even help out at all. (And this after refusing to let us even stop at the weapon store before the fight began and after we got to town.) The rest of the DMs I've played under will follow the rules explicitly unless the party is in danger of being completely wiped out. Few DMs are like you or I where we'll actually judge for ourselves if something should be a certain way regardless of what the rules say.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;40411646]I think you strongly underestimate how many DMs there are who refuse to do anything that isn't supported by the ruleset. One of the DMs I've played under absolutely refused to do anything that wasn't explicitly in the rulebooks. Not even so much as skewing a roll because he thought that a party of 5 players with 3 melee characters, one archer, and one mage would be able to take on a white dragon (juvenile I think) which he refused to keep in place long enough for the melee characters to even help out at all. (And this after refusing to let us even stop at the weapon store before the fight began and after we got to town.) The rest of the DMs I've played under will follow the rules explicitly unless the party is in danger of being completely wiped out. Few DMs are like you or I where we'll actually judge for ourselves if something should be a certain way regardless of what the rules say.[/QUOTE] TBH, these kinds of GMs will also often refuse to use a newer D&D system because "lol it's tabletop WoW" :v:

[QUOTE=M.Ciaster;40411982]TBH, these kinds of GMs will also often refuse to use a newer D&D system because "lol it's tabletop WoW" :v:[/QUOTE] I still think 4e classes feel very WoWish.

[QUOTE=M.Ciaster;40411982]TBH, these kinds of GMs will also often refuse to use a newer D&D system because "lol it's tabletop WoW" :v:[/QUOTE] Ideally I'd actually prefer AD&D over any other D&D system. But that's because I like how in that system magic isn't just something common place that anyone can do, it's something rare and exceptionally difficult for people to pull off worth a damn.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;40409235]I need some help with a boss fight for some starting DH characters its the end of a one-shot, so they've some equipment, but I want something more interesting than "LEL DEMON" anyone got any ideas?[/QUOTE] For my old DH group, I had them go against an extremely-skilled assassin who was armed to the teeth with deadly weapons, a jump pack, and various skills and traits designed to counter some aspect of each of the players. I sic'd him on them after they escaped from the collapsing lair of the villain of the week so they would be vulnerable and unprepared - just like what a real assassin would do. So after he dropped a few firebombs on the group techpriest and sniped the head off of the group pet, the party psyker asked an innocent enough question: "How is he controlling the jump pack?" I implied the thrusters were triggered by controlled movements of the muscles in his leg - it was at this point he started laughing maniacally and I realized, to my horror, the error of my ways. He was only a low-level psyker, but he did have several minor powers, one of which was called 'Spasm'. I watched as this perfect killing machine, this tediously-crafted individual with his own character sheet, was unceremoniously sent into low orbit by an inquisitorial cell which was now rolling around in the snow laughing their asses off. My advice? Don't put all your eggs in one basket.