The Elder Scrolls Megathread XVI: Loremaster Extraordinaire - Games

[QUOTE=piddlezmcfuz;47464439]If Crusader Kings has taught me anything it's that the best way for the civil war plotline to end is for you, the Dragonborn, to put these Stormcloaks in their place and then marry Elisif in true medieval power-grabbing glory, and then get either you or her elected to the throne during the postwar moot, using your influence as both the Dragonborn and the reunifier of Skyrim.[/QUOTE] You can actually do that with a mod [url]http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/41087/?[/url] People don't like this mod because [B]apparently[/B] It's buggy as hell. I never had any problems with it but then again I only have 23 supporters out of the required 40 for the morally right option.

Stormcloaks aren't even that racist, this isn't 21st century globalization. Tamriel is basically Medieval times, so don't you think its inherently the Nord's right to be in charge of their own home? No one ever seems to give Morrowind shit for abducting and enslaving Argonians, which is much worse than treating outsiders unfairly compared to the native people.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47464453]Stormcloaks aren't even that racist, this isn't 21st century globalization. Tamriel is basically Medieval times, so don't you think its inherently the Nord's right to be in charge of their own home? No one ever seems to give Morrowind shit for abducting and enslaving Argonians, which is much worse than treating outsiders unfairly compared to the native people.[/QUOTE] Actually, Morrowind's slavery is looked down upon (and abolished in Skyrim times) by every other province. It's just that Morrowind is a very important province led by [I]physical gods[/I], so no one really wants to go making them upset. Also Nords do rule Skyrim already, the problem is they'd rather leave refugees and poor peasants like the Windhelm Dunmer and Argonians to die than even just help them leave.

Well that's even easier to understand. Dunmer are refuges to an event the Nords had no involvement with and come from a country they hate. At least they let them into the country, instead of easily turning all refuges away.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47464453]Stormcloaks aren't even that racist, this isn't 21st century globalization. Tamriel is basically Medieval times, so don't you think its inherently the Nord's right to be in charge of their own home? No one ever seems to give Morrowind shit for abducting and enslaving Argonians, which is much worse than treating outsiders unfairly compared to the native people.[/QUOTE] The movement isn't racist, just the majority of people are. And independent skyrim sounds great on paper but you're really going to have to side with the empire on this one. Ulfric is a shithead who just wants power, nothing more. [URL="http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak"]You can find this gem if you explore the thalmor embassy more than you're supposed to[/URL], it's a good read.

as far as the civil war goes, they had a decent plot to work with but the dialogue and interactions that were supposed to realize it just felt pasteurized in the end. the whole game feels so schmaltzy now in hindsight. the DRAGONS are COMING and the NORDS will RISE and the EMPIRE will FALL, i mean come on how much more grocery store book-aisle could you get

[QUOTE=Zestence;47464444]How does it condemn all of the imperials though? I don't think the imperials are bad in general, there just happened to be one asshole captain at Helgen. Throughout the game I'm pretty sure stormcloacks score way higher on the dick-meter, being blinded by nationalism and hatred for non-nords in Skyrim. Stormcloacks pretty much symbolize political instability and lack of proper government. Imperials have the resources and connections to undermine and eventually push back the Thalmor. Using the "well the player character is a tank" argument is fairly invalid, if that worked then the player character in Fallout could exterminate every super mutant and bring about peace on wasteland, but that's not how the story works.[/QUOTE] It's not just one captain, the complete leader of the Imperial forces stands by and does nothing. And you say all Stormcloaks hate non-nords, but where's the evidence for that? Okay, the dark elves and argonians don't have great accommodations in Windhelm and two people insult them, this hardly qualifies as bigotry across the board. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Ulfric has never outright said anything against any races Thalmor (although they're not even a race, just a faction). Stormcloaks just want Skyrim to no longer be under Imperial (and Thalmor, as a result) control. It isn't about decimating other races (unlike the Thalmor). And yeah, maybe Imperials could, in the distant future, defeats the Thalmor in theory. But at what cost in the meanwhile? And regarding the whole "PC" thing, it's not like Fallout or Oblivion where the character is just some bloke, this is a hero of legend who kills the World Eater himself. He's got power in spades, canonically. I think he'd be able to do a fair bit on his own.

[QUOTE=Zestence;47464444] Imperials have the resources and connections to undermine and eventually push back the Thalmor.[/QUOTE] The Great War says otherwise unless I'm missing something from the time wasted reading the books in the game. How do you think the Thalmor became overlords to begin with?

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;47464510]The movement isn't racist, just the majority of people are. And independent skyrim sounds great on paper but you're really going to have to side with the empire on this one. Ulfric is a shithead who just wants power, nothing more. [URL="http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak"]You can find this gem if you explore the thalmor embassy more than you're supposed to[/URL], it's a good read.[/QUOTE] I've read that. All it shows me is that the Empire is a massive puppet for the Thalmor. "Direct Contact" probably meant the Empire ordering Ulfric around. Plus Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory, but since you're the Dragonborn you're able to make the difference and get the Stormcloaks a quick victory.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47464573]I've read that. All it shows me is that the Empire is a massive puppet for the Thalmor. "Direct Contact" probably meant the Empire ordering Ulfric around. Plus Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory, but since you're the Dragonborn you're able to make the difference and get the Stormcloaks a quick victory.[/QUOTE] You must have read something else because it says the exact opposite.

[QUOTE=Sharker;47464621]You must have read something else because it says the exact opposite.[/QUOTE] Alright, explain it to me then please.

[QUOTE=Lium;47464330]They try to cut your fucking head off. Why do people just gloss over this as though it doesn't matter?[/QUOTE] It's not like the where rubbing their hands together muttering "stormcloaks" under their breath as the did it, ulfric killed someone important and was rightfully paying the price for murdering the high king in a botched attempt to gain the throne, sadly you got caught up with it, and to quickly end a long drawn out war the would have stopped it then and there. How many more families died because he escaped, entire towns come under seige while the reds try to keep the peace as best they can. [QUOTE=Lium;47464330]All these cries of "Oh Ulfric, he's a monster who doesn't like elves." He helps you out after the Imperials try to illegally execute you and all the Stormcloaks and doesn't ask for anything really.[/QUOTE] no he doesn't, he doesn't do shit except say "legends don't burn down villages" he couldn't give the singlest of fucks weither you or his army died there. [QUOTE=Lium;47464330]So what if the Stormcloaks don't like elves? Considering all the shit they've been responsible for, it's no wonder. Slavery, cannibalism, attempting to outright destroy the world.[/QUOTE] every single elf on the entire planet? every last one of them is guilt of the crimes of a few? [QUOTE=Lium;47464330]And don't give me any of that "But if the Stormcloaks win, the Thalmor do too!" bullshit. As though Ulfric would just let the elves go after he became High King and drove them from Skyrim. And you, the Dragonborn, who defeats living gods and is basically a one-man army, you'd be pretty useful in the fight against them.[/QUOTE] no you're right, he wouldn't let the elves go... he only cares for the throne and he only uses you as a tool to get what he wants, the blues WANT to cause choas and destruction. and even worse if he becomes high king first the thalmor all get killed off (good) then non thalmor high elves get killed because they don't care, all high elves support the thalmor right? it's not like some want to live peacefully along side nords. then it's the dark elves turn because (dur also elf, dey mus b thalmor) then the wood elves then the khajit then the argonions then the orcs then redguards etc. Meanwhile the reds are saying "hey look, we are fighting a war to defend you, but we are losing badly, we won't ask you to join us, but we can stop them attacking you if you don't just go shouting about talos out in public, we love him too, but we can't fight a war on two fronts here..." as the blues elegantly reply with "HOW FUCKING DARE YOU TAKE MUH TALOS AWAY MUUUH FREEDOMDS!" I can't fathom how anyone could support the blue.

[QUOTE=Lium;47464519]And you say all Stormcloaks hate non-nords, but where's the evidence for that? Okay, the dark elves and argonians don't have great accommodations in Windhelm and two people insult them, this hardly qualifies as bigotry across the board.[/quote] I always figured it was sort of implied with the nationalist attitudes, segregation in Windhelm and "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" etc. It seems that at least they would like to see themselves with a higher status rather than working with the other races. [QUOTE=Stonecycle;47464529]The Great War kind of says otherwise unless I'm missing something from the time wasted reading the books in the game. How do you think the Thalmor became overlords to begin with?[/QUOTE] Well the Imperial legion is still a nation wide army rather than a rebellion in one province. They have proper training and command structure, something the Stormcloacks seem to lack. And instead of a few war-torn cities, they command the resources of a much larger area. If the Thalmor managed to force the Empire into a peace treaty, then surely they can do the same to Stormcloacks who have even less military strength.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47464647]Alright, explain it to me then please.[/QUOTE] [quote] obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.[/quote]

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;47462953]The only solution to defeat the thalmor long term is to side imperial. [/QUOTE] The Thalmor have a malleable emperor to manipulate, so this is probably not true. Even when the stormcloaks are defeated, the Thalmor have already had a pervasive influence on the entirety of the empire, and are basically holding it hostage. Aside from the racism and stuff, the stormcloaks may be correct in their "the empire is dying" sentiments. After the fall of the septim line it just becomes a series of opportunistic imperial nobles who fight each other for the throne. There won't be any heroic and unifying dragonborn emperors anymore, which is what made and solidified the empire in the first place. Aside form that, the Redgaurds in hammerfell were abandoned by the empire, and subsequently defeated the Thalmor onlsaught and became independent, so there's practical evidence that the Thalmor can be defeated. It's just arguable that the Empire is too fractured and compromised to be able to do it. You need a Nord/Redgaurd alliance (has happened in the past) to launch an invasion and dismantle the Thalmor leadership.

honest questions, because a lot of the discussion here is speculating off-screen like how much of a role does Talos worship actually even play in the Nord's lives? What is Nordic spirituality like? There's nothing there that really motivates me to really care ingame. The Jagged Crown quest was so hammy--perfect example. Likewise, what does the Empire represent? How do its values relate to me? Other questions: Why did the ancient Nords only build tombs? Isn't that kind of obvious gamey bullshit? What's the deal with all these draugr (answer is given in a loading screen and i'm p sure that's the end of it). you just don't get these answers in a satisfactory way in the game. Instead they dropped the Thalmor in there as a black-and-white moral motor to solve half of these issues with the civil war and that's why the discussion revolves around it. It goes on and on. The joy of a TES game isn't just the literal act of exploration, it's sustained interest of interpreting the things you're discovering. outside of the raw mechanics of gameplay, the franchise barely bothers to build a liminal space for you to interpret those cultures and i'm not really interested in picking up copies of every installment just out of compulsory loyalty anymore. my two cents, anyway.

[QUOTE=Sharker;47464721]Imperials[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed..[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=coyote93;47464266]With all the talk about bows on this page. I bring you, revolutionary new techniques! [vid]http://a.pomf.se/bhfpcw.webm[/vid] The bug was gone the next time i ran the game.[/QUOTE] [i]"You see Bjorlund, when you fire bow like this, filthy elves will piss themselves as you now have crossbow."[/i] [editline]5th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Lium;47464330]They try to cut your fucking head off. Why do people just gloss over this as though it doesn't matter? All these cries of "Oh Ulfric, he's a monster who doesn't like elves." He helps you out after the Imperials try to illegally execute you and all the Stormcloaks and doesn't ask for anything really. So what if the Stormcloaks don't like elves? Considering all the shit they've been responsible for, it's no wonder. Slavery, cannibalism, attempting to outright destroy the world. If you would seriously want to help out the guys who try to murder you, and only let it go after most of them get eaten by a dragon, then I seriously have no idea what to tell you. And don't give me any of that "But if the Stormcloaks win, the Thalmor do too!" bullshit. As though Ulfric would just let the elves go after he became High King and drove them from Skyrim. And you, the Dragonborn, who defeats living gods and is basically a one-man army, you'd be pretty useful in the fight against them.[/QUOTE] But Ulfric's a fucking racist that treats the Dark Elves like shit. They let the Argonains live only outside of the city. They don't even allow Khajiit to park their caravan. He was just a powermad ruler that used the "Bring Talos back, fuk da elves" to becomes High King of Skyrim, even though the Empire has more important things like manage relationships during a [b]Cold War[/b] with the Thalmor, hinting at a most likely big war in the 6th game (I hope). I happily join the Imperials, because everyone needs to be friends with each other if the Dominion is to ever be destroyed.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47464573]I've read that. All it shows me is that the Empire is a massive puppet for the Thalmor. "Direct Contact" probably meant the Empire ordering Ulfric around. Plus Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory, but since you're the Dragonborn you're able to make the difference and get the Stormcloaks a quick victory.[/QUOTE] The thalmor dossier outright says that Ulfric is an uncooperative but potent dormant agent. The white gold concordat is here to make sure the Aldmeri dominion has the empire by the balls, but if they invade imperial territory then the empire will no longer have any reason to keep up the concordat. So if Ulfric gets through and manages to claim secession of Skyrim, it'll no longer be imperial grounds and the Thalmor will be free to attack and take it for their own, which they will absolutely be able to do as soon as the dragonborn disappears, since the dragonborn is literally the only valuable asset the Stormcloaks ever had. So yeah, between inner conflicts, the purge/exile that'll occur to remove all imperial sympathizers and possibly all elves from Skyrim, the inevitable rise of criminality due to opportunists (a lot of people who support the Stormcloak like Maven Blackbriar do so because a land not controlled by the empire would be easier to set massive crime networks in), the economical collapse from all trading with the empire getting cut short (and most of Tamriel's population staying clear off of the land because Ulfric treats anything that's not a nord like shit), and the Thalmor invading, Skyrim would be absolutely fucked beyond recognition if it went independent. Especially with an idiot like Ulfric Stormcloak at the lead. [editline]a[/editline] And don't forget the dragons. If the dragonborn decides to kill Paarthunax, then nobody will rule the remaining dragons and they'll go haywire on Skyrim and the surrounding provinces until the blades get it under control or until the dragonborn leaves to take care of it - at which point the thalmor will be free to invade, because the Stormcloak's best assets is gone slaughtering flying reptiles of death. If dragonborn does not kill the dragons then there's a small glimmer of hope that maybe Paarthunax would turn around and help a brother out with his army of flying badasses but that's very unlikely to happen since it'd require the Aldmeri dominion to pull off some incredible world threatening shit that's so bad the dragons would have to intervene, otherwise Paarthunax would just fly off and find some piece of land to stay with his drake bros until the end of times.

The Thalmor are trying to cause the end times though. Also you act like Argonians and Elves regularly trade with Skyrim, hah! Finally, if the Thalmor were to invade Skyrim, all the free provinces would know their time would come soon. Between Argonian super soldiers, Hammerfell Swordsmasters, the Blades. Dragons, and the Dragonborn; the Thalmor would not be able to win that war. [B]Edit:[/B] [QUOTE=_Maverick_;47464668]Ulfric Stormcloak is literally Hitler[/QUOTE] Bullshit! Where does Ulfric explicitly say he wants to exterminate elven kind? How come a High Elf lives in Windhelm with no issue? Where does Ulfric say he hates all the other non-Mer races?

Enough talk about the Thalmor and Stormcloaks, here's my entry for H.A.M.M.E.R.F.E.L.L: Was testing Moonlight Tales and ended up half human, half werewolf. [t]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/32990079109722850/C5F1CC4DE071A974DB5590495633E6A309777A58/[/t] [t]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/32990079109723403/922A2FC5E64FD71E95E3263CD0ED51231BF6E792/[/t]

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47464749]post[/QUOTE] A Stormcloak victory means the empire will stop pooling their resources to skyrim and thalmor have significantly less control in that region. An imperial victory means that the empire will pool significantly less resources to skyrim but the thalmor have a good amount of control in that region.

[QUOTE=Captain Kep;47459099]Its 10x better than it was at launch, most of the negative reviews comes from TES Lorehounds. Simply put, as an MMO its unique, unlike any mmo out there. Any that say its generic have not played it and are just bashing it on a false aspect. However like any MMO it has its issues, but most of those have been fixed since launch. As an Elder Scrolls game, well you are going to be disappointed. Some people like the story others hate it with a passion. Don't go in expecting Skyrim Co-op. Look for some videos online and read DETAILED reviews, not these "lol its a shitfest MMO with Elder Scrolls stamped on" because that shit is simply not true. Your going to have to form your own opinion on it, dont take it from others.[/QUOTE] I played the beta and wasn't too taken in by it, but I thought the combat and leveling system were really cool. I'll probably buy it when it goes on sale since it's just buy to play now. Do they have any free trial stuff set up so we can see how the game plays now?

See, I always figured that if the Stormcloaks won and the Thalmor decided to start shit with the empire again, an independent Skyrim would be an ally of the empire, and would actually prove to be more of an asset than if it were imperial-controlled because of the lack of open Thalmor influence within the country. Lets face it. As pissed off as Cyrodil and Skyrim are at each other, they both have far more reason to hate the Summerset Isles. As soon as Jackboot-Legolas starts shit, they'll back each other up.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47465036]The Thalmor are trying to cause the end times though. Also you act like Argonians and Elves regularly trade with Skyrim, hah![/quote] Argonians and Elves don't trade regularly with Skyrim but the Khajiit do, at least they try, and they're constantly being shut down by the locals - not just Ulfric, sure, but Ulfric would only make the situation worse. And it doesn't change the fact the East Empire Company would basically just leave and create a huge sinkhole in the economy of the country since the majority of sea trading would outright disappear. And while the Thalmor is indeed trying to cause the end times, it's not Ulfric Stormcloak and his ragtag army of wannabe soldiers who are going to be able to fight it. [quote]Finally, if the Thalmor were to invade Skyrim, all the free provinces would know their time would come soon. Between Argonian super soldiers, Hammerfell Swordsmasters, the Blades. Dragons, and the Dragonborn; the Thalmor would not be able to win that war.[/QUOTE] The Thalmor steamrolled over Cyrodiil incredibly easily, the reason places like Black Marsh and Hammerfell hold up so well is because they're hard to access and hazardous to begin with (constant crushing heat for Hammerfell, poisonous everything for Black Marsh), and the local population are experts in guerilla warfare (the redguards are badass motherfuckers and argonians basically give up their mind to be controlled as one by the hist). Skyrim, on the other hand, is a very wide and relatively flat territory. As long as you don't go into the mountains (which you'll notice is where the stormcloak hides), then it's pretty damn easy to invade and hold since it's all flatlands. Once you've taken control of Windhelm, Whiterun, Falkreath, Riften, Morthal, Winterhold and Dawnstar (which are all very easy to access from almost angles), you can establish a massive pressure via military presence and then just march over Solitude and Markarth which are the only two really difficult to access holds in the province. The Blades are also a very small, barely noteworthy faction now. They're only back to act as dragonslayers for the time being, but their role as protectors of the emperor has long since been taken over by the penitus oculatus. Finally, you have to consider that Ulfric Stormcloak will simply not ask for assistance of the redguard (Argonians are out of the question, their super soldiers don't work for shit outside of Black Marsh) as he's too proud for this. And even if he did ask for their help, they probably wouldn't accept given how shit the alik'r envoys are being treated in Skyrim. Additionally, the reason the Thalmor was pushed out of Hammerfell may be because they didn't try very hard to capture it in the first place - there isn't exactly a whole lot that's interesting in Hammerfell compared to Skyrim, from a tactical and resource standpoint. So while the redguards are gloating about how they pushed back the invaders, there's always the possibility that the invaders didn't really bother with it all that much and instead focus on Skyrim because it's a much better land to own from a tactical and military standpoint. [editline]a[/editline] Regardless of all this, let's face it : if the empire did lose Skyrim, they wouldn't waste a minute and would send the Penitus Oculatus to deal with this shit immediately. Ulfric is being dealt with openly in a proper conflict because the empire needs to keep up a certain image, but if Ulfric actually got a hold of power and won the war (a victory that is solely due to the dragonborn's intervention, while the empire would have won regardless if a bit less hastily), it wouldn't take a month before the Penitus Oculatus showed up, killed the guy in his sleep and staged a coup the day that followed to reestablish connections with the empire.

The Stormcloaks lost my support when they were racist against the Argonian Master Race.

[QUOTE=IrishBandit;47465367]The Stormcloaks lost my support when they were racist against the Argonian Master Race.[/QUOTE] thats a weird way of spelling orc

Lore discussion aside, the stormcloaks are a pretty big missed opportunity of actually having a gray situation where there's no clear moral grounds and both sides can be defended equally. Instead, the more you learn about both, the clearer it becomes that the empire is the only viable option and the stormcloaks have no legitimacy.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;47465378]thats a weird way of spelling[B] orc[/B][/QUOTE] That's a weird way of spelling not-white-people.

What enb and other general graphic improvement mods would you guys recommend? I want to do another playthrough without everything being colorless gray.