Doom Series V2 - Knee Deep in the Thread - Games

[QUOTE=megafat;48010273]I still don't understand why they wanted to make Doom like Rage when they could have just called it Rage 2.[/QUOTE] They probably thought it'd sell better if it had a solid dose of brand recognition attached to it. They may be right, but if the game bombs it may as well bury the doom franchise for good [editline]20th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Marphy Black;48009117]We may not know much about the game, but we know plenty about the people who are bringing it to us! Doom 4 is being created by the same developers that: • stuff.[/QUOTE] Also fair to mention that a number of developers who left the company later explained that upper management was utterly incompetent, ordered numerous reboots of the game and its engine, and that the team was essentially in an advanced state of decay before bethesda stepped in and allegedly fired all the upper management to replace it with a more competent team. Whether or not that salvaged the game is yet to be seen, but being optimistic about this game is not really recommended considering the amount of dirt that's already covering it.

Really, they should have just given Machine Games some time then let them do it, at least IMO.

[QUOTE=Marphy Black;48009117]We may not know much about the game, but we know plenty about the people who are bringing it to us! Doom 4 is being created by the same developers that: • Brought us the snoozefest racing game that was RAGE, best remembered for [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IY7SAsQrko]having been mired with technical issues up the wazoo[/url]. To make up for this, they delayed the modding tools [url=http://www.shacknews.com/article/68361/rage-will-ship-with-level]promised to be included on release[/url] to a year and a half later. But don't worry! During that time, they made sure to [url=http://rage.wikia.com/wiki/Tweaks#Game_console]disable the in-game console[/url] immediately after launch so we wouldn't be able to mess around with that! • Brought us the cash grab that was Doom 3: BFG Edition which annihilates the original's gameplay by adding a ludicrous amount of extra ammo for no reason, implemented a non-optional shoulder flashlight which entirely negates one of the central mechanics the game was built around (and it no longer casts dynamic shadows, seemingly for console performance reasons), inexplicably ripped out numerous elements in Resurrection of Evil (the hazmat suit, the new arcade games, etc), downgrades the texture quality, and thoroughly eliminates all modding support, because why not? They also tacked on the hack job The Lost Mission which is advertised as being an "[url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/208200/]all-new[/url]" chapter despite nearly half of the levels being [url=http://imgur.com/a/7OtEo]straight up copied and pasted[/url] from existing Doom 3 level architecture. • Spent half a decade in development hell producing [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HI-Ev2ZbX4]this[/url]. (For the record, RAGE spent quite a bit of time in development hell too, but that game turned out great in the end. Right?) • Retains no members of importance from the founding team that developed the original Dooms after finally managing to oust John Carmack. This departure was not on good terms. ZeniMax [url=http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303948104579534013624548846]is taking legal action against Carmack[/url]. So, in light of this information, Doom 4 is most surely in the best of hands.[/QUOTE] Uh oh, I thought it was being done by the Wolfenstein TNO devs, that's a little worrying. My hopes just dropped a lot.

I'm curious, has anyone ever tried modding the levels from Doom 1 to include the monsters and weapons from doom 2? I've been looking around, but I can't find anything like that, which surprised me.

Holy shit. Playing Brutal DOOM coop with some people is much better than any recent games I've played. So old, but yet so good!

[QUOTE=coverop;48012340]Holy shit. Playing Brutal DOOM coop with some people is much better than any recent games I've played. So old, but yet so good![/QUOTE] Oh boy here we go. But while we are on the topic of Brutal Doom(not SMIV) I tried Project Brutality, a Brutal Doom add-on/edit, and I gotta say I'm having a lot of fun. I know Brutal Doom has a bad rep around Doom modding communities mainly because Mark_IV is a piece of shit and the people who say its an updated vanilla experience(which it very much is not) but Project Brutality adds a lot of neat stuff like Imps who crawl around on ceilings and walls, dynamic enemy and weapon progression and Revenants with jetpacks like Doom 4. IMO even if you hate Brutal Doom I say give it a shot although I pretty much ignore all the gore, executions and dumb voiced stuff. Anyone else here tried it?

I tried Project Brutality, it was way too hodge-podgey. There was actually a case of too much excess, unneeded clone enemies, not to mention blasting Collapse ala Killing Floor 2 (ala Demon Hunters band) for both the menu and intermission. There's some cool additions here and there, but they don't add enough to make it worth trudging through the rest. It feels like this mix of dated zDooming concepts (oh boy look at all these monsters and weapons we added!!) and someone just a bit too blind to see the horrible additions holding back the good ones. Gonna have to stick with BDJ for now. It's alright to add a lot of monsters and weapons (DoomRL) if it's done tastefully and isn't full of obvious Realm Bestiary 667 additions. There's a holy quadrent for Doom gameplay wads with me: -Things that feel like plain Doom+ (qStyleZX, Smooth Doom, DoomRL) -Things that add difficulty (Satanic, Hideous Destructor) -Things that emulate the Doom comic (namely Brutal Doom and it's forks) -Things that are just batshit insane over the top (Russian Overkill, OMGWPNS, AoED, etc) PB just feels like it's somewhere stuck between batshit and Brutal Doom, but is taking itself seriously.

Yeah Collapse definitely feels out of place out of place, as much as I like in KF2. I'm one of the people who doesn't get bothered by adding a bunch of pointless weapons since I like tiny little variants, although I do recognise that it does take away from the "specialness" of each weapon when you have a smaller range of weapons, same with enemies. I actually haven't tried BDJ yet so maybe I'll give that a shot next. If someone does take the Rvenants, dynamic progression and Imps out of PB I'll probably move to that though.

Okay I'm sure you guys have had this discussion many times and for that I'm sorry but why is Brutal Doom shit/not shit? I noticed a lot of people get on its case (not so much here). And from what I can tell it's just normal doom but with more gore and finishers. Am I wrong? Is there more to it?

I've played a bit of it, it's actually pretty fun and has a lot of neat features and customization even though I was expecting it to be one of those insanely bloated Brutal Doom meta-mods. One of my biggest complaints with Project Brutality is the inconsistencies in the audio mixing (which brutal doom had the same issue to a lesser extent). Seriously, a LOT of sound effects are clipping out like insane while some are barely audible in comparison and it just turns into a mess of noise anytime you get into combat.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;48012651]Okay I'm sure you guys have had this discussion many times and for that I'm sorry but why is Brutal Doom shit/not shit? I noticed a lot of people get on its case (not so much here). And from what I can tell it's just normal doom but with more gore and finishers. Am I wrong? Is there more to it?[/QUOTE] The mod itself is fine, there's just a lot of shit surrounding the people who use it and the guy who made it. The reason people hate it isn't because of the content, but because of Sargent Mark IV being a huge racist (and implied neo-nazi, as far as I know) and being an asshole towards critics, as well as people who play Brutal Doom for 10 minutes and call it "the way Doom was meant to be" and refuse to ever play anything else because of that.

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48012743]The mod itself is fine, there's just a lot of shit surrounding the people who use it and the guy who made it. The reason people hate it isn't because of the content, but because of Sargent Mark IV being a huge racist (and implied neo-nazi, as far as I know) and being an asshole towards critics, as well as people who play Brutal Doom for 10 minutes and call it "the way Doom was meant to be" and refuse to ever play anything else because of that.[/QUOTE] No one ever backs this up with evidence, so I just don't believe it. From what I've done in my own research, he's guilty of raunchy (sometimes racist) humor and using real gore in his mods. He just doesn't have a filter, and with that in mind I don't give a shit.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;48012651]Okay I'm sure you guys have had this discussion many times and for that I'm sorry but why is Brutal Doom shit/not shit? I noticed a lot of people get on its case (not so much here). And from what I can tell it's just normal doom but with more gore and finishers. Am I wrong? Is there more to it?[/QUOTE] [highlight]Brutal Doom Controversy and You 101:[/highlight] - [B]The Mod Removed From All Else[/B] -- It's rather solid, actually. There isn't much to complain about, except for a bit too much focus on gore (enemies crying out and screaming with missing limbs only goes so far before it's just plain sadistic.) There's minor niggles such as AI inconsistencies, a rework of the original balance (hitscanners are infinitely more dangerous than projectile demons now), yadda yadda yadda. There isn't a lot here to go on which is why it confuses me that people whine about this. There have been many other mods having done many other things, and honestly - it's fun. Jolly good in cooperative. - [B]The Mod Author[/B]: Sergeant_Mark_IV -- There's nowhere to start here legitimately. He's a very concerning individual who might need to check into an institution. Somewhere between encouraging another forum member to commit suicide, having racist comments in the code of his mod, and at one point (v16 I think?) having a "realistic gore" add-on featuring real edited images of the viscera? Yeah. He's also known to be rather abrasive and the update schedule isn't anything to write home about. Apparently he's been improving, but with a track record like that, he has a very, very long way. - [B]The Awful Community Spawned[/B] -- This upset mod and map makers alike awash with a huge influx of children, tweens, and people completely oblivious to the standing Doom community, who then begged for everything to be "Brutal Doom" compatible and "will it work with Brutal Doom" and "isn't as good as Brutal Doom" and blah blah blah. Holy shit it was bad for a short time, and I think the zDoom forums cracked down rather hard on it. While it's certainly not as bad now, it's still obnoxious when you see people who have no experience with the game prior begging for help to set up Brutal Doom (which is a fucking drag-and-drop operation for fuck sake.) And then there's the big one, the big nasty, the awful thing they often say: -[B]"Brutal Doom was the way Doom was meant to be played!"[/B] -- No. Fucking stop. Hit all the brakes. Sound the alarm, sit down, and shut the fuck up. Doom is Doom. Doom is intrinsically Doom. A mod created when the game was almost old enough to drink, and certainly legal enough to fuck in most places, that mostly centers itself around a hilariously cheesy comic featuring the setting of Doom? That is [B]--> NOT <--[/B] Doom. That wasn't how Doom was meant to be played, and that isn't now how Doom is meant to be played. Doom was meant to be played as [U]Doom[/U]. Were there design limiations? Yes. Were things scrapped? Yes. Did Carmack and Carmack have different ideas? Yes. Did Tom Hall want to do a whole bunch of shit? Yes. Did Doom have alpha versions different than the current product? Yes. Was it anything close to Brutal Doom? No. It was more like Sci-Fi Hexen. Class and plot driven. Item driven. Exploratory. It did not have one singular fucking lick to do with Brutal Doom and it still doesn't. But wait! Doom is a fast-paced action game and Brutal Doom is also fast-paced action, so it's an improvement albhalbah - fucking stop right there Criminal Scum. Doom is still not as some people play it today. To recycle something I said in the video section - the year is 93/94 and you finally have a copy of the real deal, the hot new shit? You were not flying around like a cheetah blasting stuff with perfect side-strafing and playing dodgeball with plasma. That came to players far after the fact, either through skill, repetition, or (years later), source ports and prior gaming practice. Most people's first interactions with it were a slow and steady, terrifying approach where Ultra-Violence was seen as a feat to overcome and not the default difficulty. Controls were clunky and many didn't even use the mouse. To define Doom is not a simple task and certainly not one that's achieved by booting up the latest source port with all it's nice amenities and playing as you are today. Doom was as much action as it was adventure. It was as much blood and guts, as it was horror. There was gunplay, and exploration. There was a fucking chainsaw, but there were also dark segments filled with stuff waiting to bite your face. Doom doesn't have an easy singular one-shoe-fits-all definition, but no mod is ever going to do justice to what Doom really is, because Doom itself already exists and is as close as we're going to get (ala Chocolate Doom if you really want to go there.) I'll also add that Brutal Doom got a lot of attention. Whether you want to chalk it up to jealousy or otherwise - a lot of [B]really fucking good [/B]mods and maps are totally overlooked in favor of it, which is a souring topic in itself. Almost all my Steam friends might know the name Brutal Doom without having the slightest indication of what zDoom is, or even what the base games are.

Really, SGT Mark or the mod itself isn't what bothers me about it. Like Starlight said, it's this attitude people have about it. If you like the mod, that's fine. Hell, you could prefer it to the original game. But the moment some people play it, they act as if Doom was just a pile of shit before Brutal Doom came along and "made it better" It's just infuriating when someone who claims to be a fan of Doom says "I can't play this without Brutal Doom it's just too old xDDD" If you had no problems playing it before, why all of the sudden do you not like it now? Because it doesn't have ludicrous amounts of violence. Doom is a perfectly solid shooter that anyone who likes that style should be able to get into with no issues. I don't see how completely breaking the balance of the game and adding the middle finger and over the top fatalities suddenly makes the original Doom experience obsolete. No it doesn't. I mean, some people may prefer that, and no harm in that, but Brutal Doom and regular Doom are two completely different animals. To say one outshines the other is just ridiculous. To me, nothing can beat the original Doom experience, but Brutal Doom should be able to co-exist with the base game without someone saying that "This is the only way to play! This is what it was meant to be!" I have a friend too that seriously cannot play Doom without the mod and actually tells me that he [B]hated[/B] playing it until Brutal Doom came out and made him interested in the game. It's cool that the mod is getting new and younger people into the game, but now he pesters me all the time about it each time I play Doom, and it grates on my nerves each time. He acts like I'm some old man who's lost in the dust just because I don't prefer to play a heavily modded version of the game and absolutely refuses to play any mod that doesn't support BD. I showed him Back To Saturn X, which in my opinion is one of the all time best Doom wads to date, and of course, he asks if BD is supported. It's not, so he won't play. That's just...so disappointing to me :v:

speaking of BTSX, E2's map31 is painful. i can clear E1's fine, but E2's is absolutely destroying me.

[QUOTE=Mike Tyson;48012890]speaking of BTSX, E2's map31 is painful. i can clear E1's fine, but E2's is absolutely destroying me.[/QUOTE] I'm currently playing through BTSX E2 and a friend warned me to not even try that map so I steered clear.

[QUOTE=Mysterious;48012878]I have a friend too that seriously cannot play Doom without the mod and actually tells me that he [B]hated[/B] playing it until Brutal Doom came out and made him interested in the game. It's cool that the mod is getting new and younger people into the game, but now he pesters me all the time about it each time I play Doom, and it grates on my nerves each time. He acts like I'm some old man who's lost in the dust just because I don't prefer to play a heavily modded version of the game and absolutely refuses to play any mod that doesn't support BD. I showed him Back To Saturn X, which in my opinion is one of the all time best Doom wads to date, and of course, he asks if BD is supported. It's not, so he won't play. That's just...so disappointing to me :v:[/QUOTE] That would drive me absolutely crazy. If I had to put one thing at the top of what I love about Doom, it would seriously be the content the community still pumps out. And I'm not even talking gameplay, I'm talking almost entirely maps. The shit some people do with the engine is downright beautiful and the base game is solid enough to enjoy said maps just for sight-seeing if you want. Unloved, Sunder, Sunlust, Swim with Whales, Stardate something something super purple, Golden Souls, Phocas Island 2, Happy Circus Time 2, oh man I could just keep going on for ages and ages. It's still a habit of mine sometimes if I'm restless or can't sleep, to hop back on, boot up Doom, and go play whatever weird levels I dig out of the internet. [t]http://media.moddb.com/images/downloads/1/83/82782/Yestrday2.png[/t] (note here to promise myself to stop editing this with more callouts)

[QUOTE=Mysterious;48012878] I showed him Back To Saturn X, which in my opinion is one of the all time best Doom wads to date, and of course, he asks if BD is supported. It's not, so he won't play. That's just...so disappointing to me :v:[/QUOTE] It's not officially supported but I'm pretty sure it works, I'm messing around with Project Brutality in it.

Another thing to consider. Imagine you're a mod maker for Doom. A very good one. Maybe with a small team to back you up. You've been working on this mod for 2+ years with your team, spending hours and days and whole weeks just to get things up to snuff. All new maps, new monsters, new weapons, all done by you and your guys. Finally, after all that work, you release it onto the Doom forum/outlet of your choosing and celebrate with your team after a few years of earnest, hard work. The next day, you log on to see several comments on your newest mod. "is this compatible with brutal doom???" "i tried it but it says it cant work with bd wtf???" "this mod would be a whole lot better if it worked with brutal doom" If I were a diligent modder, nothing would piss me off more than people refusing to play my mod unless I make it compatible with SOMEONE ELSE'S MOD. Basically, people are asking to rework your entire mod on the basis of someone else's mod just so they can make it rain blood and guts and flip people off and will not play it until you do. It's an slap in the face when a mod is so popular, no one will want to play yours if it isn't compatible with someone's silly ass gore mod. It just seems like no progress is made when a mod, something that should be drawing interest in the base game (and in turn other mods) is actually making people blind to all the other fantastic creations that the Doom community has to offer. That's why it irks me when people are like "Well people are probably just jealous cuz they know they can't make a better mod". Those kind of fucks are the ones who are impeding progress and making it harder for other mods to break out of that shadow. What it should be doing is encouraging people to step up and release something better, but it's kind of hard to do that when the creator insists on actually STEALING other people's creations and using them in his own mod and calling it his. IT seems now that he's actually laid off of that whole thing, but it's still a sad state of affairs when the modding world stagnates just because something can't come up with something "better" than Brutal Doom.

[QUOTE=Mysterious;48013084]Imagine you a mod maker for Doom. A very good one. Maybe with a small team to back you up. You've been working on this mod for 2+ years with your team, spending hours and days and whole weeks just to get things up to snuff. All new maps, new monsters, new weapons, all done by you and your guys. [/QUOTE] To be honest, I've had concepts that I've never even put to paper for Doom, but my first premise on every single one of them is that it should be vanilla + limit-removing compatible. That way people can play however they want and it theoretically works across a huge number of set-ups.

Not gonna lie, BD v19 actually got me into Doom in the first place. While it was fun for a while, I found that vanilla gameplay to me was just as enjoyable as BD's. Nowadays, I hardly play BD at all. I mostly play vanilla and occasionally other gameplay mods like GMOTA or Demonsteele. It really sucks to hear how much trouble it caused for the Doom community, but at the same time, I'm thankful it exists because otherwise I would've never gotten into Doom.

I actually like the fan forks of BD just because the sound effects in regular BD irritate me profusely, whenever I hear my death scream or an enemy scream I just want to mute or quit the game. I prefer smoothdoom because to me good, smooth death animations are a better update than the excessive gore. I'd probably prefer both, but I have to choose so I usually go with the better animations

[QUOTE=NoMan;48013152]Not gonna lie, BD v19 actually got me into Doom in the first place. While it was fun for a while, I found that vanilla gameplay to me was just as enjoyable as BD's. Nowadays, I hardly play BD at all. I mostly play vanilla and occasionally other gameplay mods like GMOTA or Demonsteele. It really sucks to hear how much trouble it caused for the Doom community, but at the same time, I'm thankful it exists because otherwise I would've never gotten into Doom.[/QUOTE] This is why I can't totally fault BD. It IS drawing attention and it IS making people pick Doom up again. It's good that you were sensible enough to want to try other mods other than declaring that BD is the only mod ever. [editline]20th June 2015[/editline] The gore in Brutal Doom has never been a problem for me. Gore in a Doom game is nothing new at all. The original animations are pretty damned brutal on their own. It's the fatalities and the completely unneeded stuff that throws it off the rails. I mean, I do like to see a good bit of blood, but killing one enemy with the SSG shouldn't result in half a small room covered in gore bits.

That's actually what I liked about v20, the realistic gore setting was much more natural for Doom i think

[QUOTE=Mysterious;48013206]This is why I can't totally fault BD. It IS drawing attention and it IS making people pick Doom up again. It's good that you were sensible enough to want to try other mods other than declaring that BD is the only mod ever. [editline]20th June 2015[/editline] The gore in Brutal Doom has never been a problem for me. Gore in a Doom game is nothing new at all. The original animations are pretty damned brutal on their own. It's the fatalities and the completely unneeded stuff that throws it off the rails. I mean, I do like to see a good bit of blood, but killing one enemy with the SSG shouldn't result in half a small room covered in gore bits.[/QUOTE] Can't argue with that. Brutal Doom is a huge mod when it comes to detail. Even though I've seen a lot of mods , this still impresses me.

Yeah, my real problem with Brutal Doom isn't the mod itself or the author but the people. There are so many mods and maps out there which deserves more attention but Brutal Doom just takes it all, the worst part is people that never played Doom or know anything about it and the first thing they do is get Doom from some random "abandoware" site or just get some "mega pack" that comes with Doom and Brutal Doom. It's painful to see people not even buying it because "It's an old game and isn't supported anymore" when the game is still being sold. The story around Brutal Doom just reminds me how fair the world is.

I actually just really liked the hitboxes and incremental dismemberment. Is there any mod out there that has more "interactive" gore/ damage that doesn't really fuck with the core gameplay of Doom?

[QUOTE=Pythagoras64;48012307]I'm curious, has anyone ever tried modding the levels from Doom 1 to include the monsters and weapons from doom 2? I've been looking around, but I can't find anything like that, which surprised me.[/QUOTE] PS1 version did that and there's a mod that is essentially a port of PS1 version. EDIT: Here it is [url]http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/57957-psx-doom-final-doom-tc-version-2-1-now-released/[/url]

Thanks for the rundown guys, sorry if I opened up any old wounds in the process. I honestly have to say I don't think I know a more dedicated modding community than Doom's. The only one I can think of is SMW rom hacks but that's a different beast on its own.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;48013466]Thanks for the rundown guys, sorry if I opened up any old wounds in the process. I honestly have to say I don't think I know a more dedicated modding community than Doom's. The only one I can think of is SMW rom hacks but that's a different beast on its own.[/QUOTE] Naw, no wounds open. We love to vent and spew about our lovechild all day. Doom is still around only because of it's mod community. If the community latched onto, or the mod tools were easier for: Hexen, Quake, Heretic (lol), Duke Nukem, Shadow Warrior, etc - any one of those could've wound up in Doom's position. But at it's core, Doom is as simple as it is versatile which really makes it a great platform for just about anything. Part of me wishes more people did stuff with Shadow Warrior, which built on Duke's BUILD engine rather majorly. Damn thing was the earliest FPS game I ever played that supported drivable vehicles (shoutout to Duke's slopes, trams, and other useful functions though), even said vehicles had to be painstakingly built into the map itself.