As it stood, we had three combat characters in the 15-18 average range, then another three supporty types with low tens to single digits, then rats. Which meant that half of the party spent most of combat doing nothing, which was generally agreed to be a bad situation, so we changed it. And bar the person made to abuse the init system and nothing else, nothing really changed.
Really, if they could find some way in stuff like PF and Shadowrun or EP to simulate faster characters without descending to action-economy shattering extra turns, I'd probably enjoy those systems much more
[QUOTE=Rents;47995607]Magic is as complicated as you want to make it really, easiest is an aspected sorcerer since you just cast shit and roll drain, or you can go nuts and be a full mage using possession spirits and take trips to the metaplanes.
[editline]18th June 2015[/editline]
Giving everyone one initiative pass in SR makes some of the most powerful abilities useless though, completely up-ends the balance of combat to just be about whoever has the highest dicepool.[/QUOTE]
If you're playing an aspected sorcerer, magic is actually simpler than guns. Way simpler.
[editline]18th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;47995774]it made no difference to the end result and let the vast majority of the party actually act more in combat while rats, the only person who complained about it, only lost his ability to spend three moves a turn failing to knock people out with stunfists instead of only having one[/QUOTE]
sounds like you basically completely fucked him over?
[editline]18th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;47995954]As it stood, we had three combat characters in the 15-18 average range, then another three supporty types with low tens to single digits, then rats. Which meant that half of the party spent most of combat doing nothing, which was generally agreed to be a bad situation, so we changed it. And bar the person made to abuse the init system and nothing else, nothing really changed.
Really, if they could find some way in stuff like PF and Shadowrun or EP to simulate faster characters without descending to action-economy shattering extra turns, I'd probably enjoy those systems much more[/QUOTE]
My only problem with the initiative system is that everyone's turns are in a set order.
That wouldn't really normally be a huge problem, but since my players aren't really all there all the time, it ends up with one character's turn taking up way too long due to having to wait for the player to actually be there again.
I'm considering switching to a more free kind of initiative system. Roll initiative as normal, but then instead of having everyone in a set order, just let whoever wants to act, act. If multiple people want to act at the same time, the one with the highest initiative acts first. Every time you take a turn, you lose 10 initiative as normal, until you're all out.
Once nobody wants to or are able to take any more actions, reroll initiative.
[QUOTE=elowin;47996019]I'm considering switching to a more free kind of initiative system. Roll initiative as normal, but then instead of having everyone in a set order, just let whoever wants to act, act. If multiple people want to act at the same time, the one with the highest initiative acts first. Every time you take a turn, you lose 10 initiative as normal, until you're all out.
Once nobody wants to or are able to take any more actions, reroll initiative.[/QUOTE]
I think the Star Wars FFG games did something a bit like this, where you rolled initiative for everyone but every initiative slot was either for the players or for the NPCs, and when a turn came up any player or NPC who hadn't acted yet in the round could fill it
[editline]18th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;47995954]As it stood, we had three combat characters in the 15-18 average range, then another three supporty types with low tens to single digits, then rats. Which meant that half of the party spent most of combat doing nothing, which was generally agreed to be a bad situation, so we changed it. And bar the person made to abuse the init system and nothing else, nothing really changed.
Really, if they could find some way in stuff like PF and Shadowrun or EP to simulate faster characters without descending to action-economy shattering extra turns, I'd probably enjoy those systems much more[/QUOTE]
You could have just made him take all his turns at once, like when characters get multiple attacks in Pathfinder or Dungeons & Dragons. That way, you simplify the Initiative system but don't gimp anybody's character.
[QUOTE=elowin;47988512]It doesn't, really. It's pretty fast now, at least assuming they're playing 5th edition.[/QUOTE]
oh did they finally fix this? that actually kicks ass, I can't think of a cyberpunk RPG that pulled that off
brb finding the book and stealing the mechanics for cyberpunk 2020
:v:
[QUOTE=M.Ciaster;47996306]oh did they finally fix this? that actually kicks ass, I can't think of a cyberpunk RPG that pulled that off
brb finding the book and stealing the mechanics for cyberpunk 2020
:v:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they did. It's one of the big reasons 5th is the definitive edition of the game, in my opinion.
Don't think it'd work very well for Cyberpunk 2020, though. Wireless matrix and all that.
[QUOTE=elowin;47996429]Yeah, they did. It's one of the big reasons 5th is the definitive edition of the game, in my opinion.
Don't think it'd work very well for Cyberpunk 2020, though. Wireless matrix and all that.[/QUOTE]
What's so special about the wireless matrix that it makes things incompatible with CP2020?
[QUOTE=cdr248;47996558]What's so special about the wireless matrix that it makes things incompatible with CP2020?[/QUOTE]
the fact that it's wireless, which CP2020's isn't?
that's a pretty huge factor
[QUOTE=elowin;47996926]the fact that it's wireless, which CP2020's isn't?
that's a pretty huge factor[/QUOTE]
That's just flavor though - just add having to be connected to the thing physically as a requirement and bam, wireless turns into wired
of course you can't hack enemy guns or anything like that this way, but if the rules for handling regular hacking are concise and smooth, this shouldn't change a thing
[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;47995954]As it stood, we had three combat characters in the 15-18 average range, then another three supporty types with low tens to single digits, then rats. Which meant that half of the party spent most of combat doing nothing, which was generally agreed to be a bad situation, so we changed it. And bar the person made to abuse the init system and nothing else, nothing really changed.
Really, if they could find some way in stuff like PF and Shadowrun or EP to simulate faster characters without descending to action-economy shattering extra turns, I'd probably enjoy those systems much more[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the initiative system takes a bit of getting used to, deckers, drones, and people with wired reflexes or improved reflexes can get to act several times in a row in some teams since everyone else is getting 1 or 2 passes while they consistently get 3 or 4, it's especially bad if the rest of the team are not buffing themselves with the increase reflexes spell or combat drugs.
Deckers can hit about 10+5d6 fairly easily, focused adepts and street sams can get 15+4d6, drones with a minor upgrade get 12+4d6, spirits get good initiative but I'm not sure exactly. An unaugmented average human gets a pretty fucking slow 6+1d6, but someone fairly combat oriented on drugs can manage 10+3d6 without much bother.
As a normal person in SR drugs are your equaliser against that, Jazz is great for it, 1+2d6 extra initiative, lasts at least ten minutes which is long enough for any fight, there's not unresistable stun damage from crashing but you take a -2 on all rolls for the same amount of time after. Cheap and easy to get too, 75ny a dose and 2R.
tl;dr, gotta buff up, make sure the mage can sustain a couple of improve reflexes spells or get a bunch of jazz/cram/kamakazi.
Trust me, I understand the initiative system and how to abuse it, that still doesn't make me like it
Overall the whole game is something that I love the idea behind but have never seen even slightly work out in practice, and there are a lot of other systems that do the various components in more entertaining ways that don't entail what is basically enforced party splitting based on profession, which is why I'm honestly in no rush to play it again
[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;47997433]Trust me, I understand the initiative system and how to abuse it, that still doesn't make me like it
Overall the whole game is something that I love the idea behind but have never seen even slightly work out in practice, and there are a lot of other systems that do the various components in more entertaining ways that don't entail what is basically enforced party splitting based on profession, which is why I'm honestly in no rush to play it again[/QUOTE]
It's not really abusing it? Performance enhancing drugs are common in SR, it's issued to cops, gangs love them, they're definitely more common than adept powers and invasive cybernetics.
[QUOTE=elowin;47996926]the fact that it's wireless, which CP2020's isn't?
that's a pretty huge factor[/QUOTE]
Maybe I don't have to follow the book to the letter and just say "Yeah no need to plug anything in you can just hack whatever."
Like just because the game says I have to have something plugged into my built-in arm LCD screen doesn't mean I have to [I]plug[/I] it in (however i plug it in anyway because it's cool).
[editline]18th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=M.Ciaster;47997357]That's just flavor though - just add having to be connected to the thing physically as a requirement and bam, wireless turns into wired
of course you can't hack enemy guns or anything like that this way, but if the rules for handling regular hacking are concise and smooth, this shouldn't change a thing[/QUOTE]
Even if it was wireless I don't see how you could hack any of the guns in cyberpunk2020 unless they were smart guns since cp2020 mostly uses conventional weapons. It'd be like trying to ddos a colt peacemaker.
I have the feeling that roll20 sometimes fucks up and uses the value of your last roll
[img]http://puu.sh/iu3I2/c4f98d0c39.png[/img]
[QUOTE=leonthefox;47999594]I have the feeling that roll20 sometimes fucks up and uses the value of your last roll
[img]http://puu.sh/iu3I2/c4f98d0c39.png[/img][/QUOTE]
1. What's that fancy thing you are using?
2. Roll20 has terrible rolling and I don't know how that's even possible.
[QUOTE=cdr248;47999602]1. What's that fancy thing you are using?
2. Roll20 has terrible rolling and I don't know how that's even possible.[/QUOTE]
It's something Roll20 added a while back. It requires some kinda basic coding knowledge to make them, but a lot of the sheets they have let you use those if you use the sheet to roll shit.
[QUOTE=M.Ciaster;47997357]That's just flavor though - just add having to be connected to the thing physically as a requirement and bam, wireless turns into wired
of course you can't hack enemy guns or anything like that this way, but if the rules for handling regular hacking are concise and smooth, this shouldn't change a thing[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=cdr248;47998994]Maybe I don't have to follow the book to the letter and just say "Yeah no need to plug anything in you can just hack whatever."
Like just because the game says I have to have something plugged into my built-in arm LCD screen doesn't mean I have to [I]plug[/I] it in (however i plug it in anyway because it's cool).
[editline]18th June 2015[/editline]
Even if it was wireless I don't see how you could hack any of the guns in cyberpunk2020 unless they were smart guns since cp2020 mostly uses conventional weapons. It'd be like trying to ddos a colt peacemaker.[/QUOTE]
will change shit pretty hard tho idk
[QUOTE=cdr248;47999602]1. What's that fancy thing you are using?
2. Roll20 has terrible rolling and I don't know how that's even possible.[/QUOTE]
I'm firmly convinced that roll20 actually outsourced the randomizing instead of coding a random generator
somewhere in the world there's a room full of chinese men and women just typing out random numbers 24/7, keyboard clacking so loud it sounds like someone overturned a giant drum full of d20s over a concrete driveway
[QUOTE=Rats808;47999626]It's something Roll20 added a while back. It requires some kinda basic coding knowledge to make them, but a lot of the sheets they have let you use those if you use the sheet to roll shit.[/QUOTE]
not even that its just one of the premade character sheets
also yeah ive encountered some fucking dodgy rolling on roll20 before
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=leonthefox;47999594]I have the feeling that roll20 sometimes fucks up and uses the value of your last roll
[img]http://puu.sh/iu3I2/c4f98d0c39.png[/img][/QUOTE]
other particular highlights of this session include the bard slapping our monk ragtime-style to snap him out of a powerful charm and everybody lining up to be assaulted by a fire breathing hamster
[QUOTE=ThatSprite;48000076]not even that its just one of the premade character sheets[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rats808;47999626]a lot of the sheets they have let you use those if you use the sheet to roll shit.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=elowin;47999671]will change shit pretty hard tho idk[/QUOTE]
A switch from wired to wireless is a pretty big change for a setting sure, but really it's nothing but a harmless fluff change. Perhaps some issues with balance but lol it's cp2020 what is balance even.
It'd be like saying the currency in your ~original~ DnD setting is not gold, but instead something dumb like tin. Sure something like that would be huge if you think about it in terms of the world, but in gameplay it really doesn't matter imo.
Although I'd definitely like to hear your side before I go off trying to learn and use a system that'll probably fail in the game I'd like to use it in.
[QUOTE=cdr248;48000274]A switch from wired to wireless is a pretty big change for a setting sure, but really it's nothing but a harmless fluff change. Perhaps some issues with balance but lol it's cp2020 what is balance even.
It'd be like saying the currency in your ~original~ DnD setting is not gold, but instead something dumb like tin. Sure something like that would be huge if you think about it in terms of the world, but in gameplay it really doesn't matter imo.
Although I'd definitely like to hear your side before I go off trying to learn and use a system that'll probably fail in the game I'd like to use it in.[/QUOTE]
well if you dont give a fuck about balance then i guess its not a big issue
but a big part of the reason it works in SR5 is that your hacker can just sit down and jack in behind cover in the middle of a firefight and have a super matrix duel with an enemy decker, and then blow up everyones guns and turn off their cybereyes.
[QUOTE=elowin;48000362]well if you dont give a fuck about balance then i guess its not a big issue
but a big part of the reason it works in SR5 is that your hacker can just sit down and jack in behind cover in the middle of a firefight and have a super matrix duel with an enemy decker, and then blow up everyones guns and turn off their cybereyes.[/QUOTE]
well yeah, obviously, I'm more looking for ideas I could recreate rather than systems I could straight up transplant - Shadowrun is so drastically different from CP2020 mechanically it's not really a thing I could do.
I swear, my d20 is cursed. Tried to cast Scorching Ray last night, rolled a 3, a 4 and another 3.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;48002611]I swear, my d20 is cursed. Tried to cast Scorching Ray last night, rolled a 3, a 4 and another 3.[/QUOTE]
On roll 20 we nicknamed a particular outcome after a friend of ours.
If he were to roll 2d20 for something one would be a 20 and the other a 1.
Or he would roll a 20 to hit and a 1 for damage.
He might roll 20 on his persuasion when he has 8 charisma and 1 on his athletics when he had 17 Strength.
His rolls are always either the best or the worst, never in the middle.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;48002611]I swear, my d20 is cursed. Tried to cast Scorching Ray last night, rolled a 3, a 4 and another 3.[/QUOTE]
Well, you didn't roll two 1's in a row and get your favorite pet killed, whilst having your dying pet's last act be to poison you.
[QUOTE=elowin;48000362]well if you dont give a fuck about balance then i guess its not a big issue
but a big part of the reason it works in SR5 is that your hacker can just sit down and jack in behind cover in the middle of a firefight and have a super matrix duel with an enemy decker, and then blow up everyones guns and turn off their cybereyes.[/QUOTE]
At least itll give netrunners something to do during combat
[QUOTE=cdr248;48004108]At least itll give netrunners something to do during combat[/QUOTE]
That's the idea. It makes decking an actual playstyle, as opposed to that thing you do at the end of a run to get the info while everyone else sits around.
but obviously it doesn't really work that well with all dem wires
THEIR FIRST LIVE CAPTURE
WAS A FUCKING CHRYSSALID
I'm looking to GM a Shadowrun game some time in the future which neither I nor my group have played before but I really like the setting and some of the ideas.
I picked up a third edition rule book in a second hand book shop, but given some of the things I've read in this thread, would I be better finding a 5th edition book? Are the changes that big and do they make the game simpler/faster?
My group has only played Call of Cthulhu and Vampire the Masquerade before now and I'm concerned Shadowrun might be a big jump in complexity for them
[QUOTE=Ferrous;48009562]I'm looking to GM a Shadowrun game some time in the future which neither I nor my group have played before but I really like the setting and some of the ideas.
I picked up a third edition rule book in a second hand book shop, but given some of the things I've read in this thread, would I be better finding a 5th edition book? Are the changes that big and do they make the game simpler/faster?
My group has only played Call of Cthulhu and Vampire the Masquerade before now and I'm concerned Shadowrun might be a big jump in complexity for them[/QUOTE]
SR3's dice rolls are more complex, the target number on the d6 changes depending on what you're doing (and can go above 6, meaning to get a success on a dice you need to roll a 6 then reroll it and add the two together for it to beat the target number), and you get an amount of dice to add onto certain rolls which is refreshed every turn, for example the combat dicepool can be spent on damage resistance tests or attacking test, control dicepool is spent on vehicle tests.
In SR4&5 target numbers are always 5 (meaning you just need to roll 5 or 6 for a dice to be a success), and the additional dicepools are replaced by the edge stat, which lets you reroll failures, avoid dying, etc and is replenished whenever the GM thinks is a good chance for down time.
SR3 is also the main offender of "WELL, the decker's doing his thing, let's go get pizza.".
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