Give them titles.
Players love having something to write down on their character sheet, and this is something they'll never get rid of.
It can be official titles like "Duke" or "Lord", honorary titles like "Master of the Hunt" or "Cupbearer" and epithets like "the Great", "the Terrible".
It's totally superficial, but they'll love it when someone calls them by their title.
Give them a Gun (assuming generic fantasy setting). Don't explain what it is. Try to be as confusing s possible in description of it (you see a strange conglomeration of metal and wood, shaped of hollow boxes and tubes). Have it loaded, but never give them any ammo.
Extra points if the accidentally kills someone with it before realizing what it does.
Bonus points if they do realize what it is, but end up shooting themselves.
Never explain them why it's there.
[QUOTE=gufu;47076695]Give them a Gun (assuming generic fantasy setting). Don't explain what it is. Try to be as confusing s possible in description of it (you see a strange conglomeration of metal and wood, shaped of hollow boxes and tubes). Have it loaded, but never give them any ammo.
Extra points if the accidentally kills someone with it before realizing what it does.
Bonus points if they do realize what it is, but end up shooting themselves.
Never explain them why it's there.[/QUOTE]
The explanations is Wizards
[img]http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20081015.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=gufu;47076695]Give them a Gun (assuming generic fantasy setting). Don't explain what it is. Try to be as confusing s possible in description of it (you see a strange conglomeration of metal and wood, shaped of hollow boxes and tubes). Have it loaded, but never give them any ammo.
Extra points if the accidentally kills someone with it before realizing what it does.
Bonus points if they do realize what it is, but end up shooting themselves.
Never explain them why it's there.[/QUOTE]
Like the Gonne in Men at Arms (Discworld).
[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;47076476]Absolutely useless items. The stranger, the better.
A portable chin rest. An instrument that only plays one note. A 10-pound hat.
[I]Someone[/I] will think it'll be useful eventually.[/QUOTE]
Better yet, a drum can be all three!
[editline]4th February 2015[/editline]
If it weighs ten pounds, of course.
What is the most powerful weapon you guys have ever had or made as a dm in your campaign?
Mine was during my 1st edition dnd dming phase. It was a +10 Greatsword with returning, +15 vs demons and other evil outsiders. If they were a Paladin it gave it put all their saves at 1 (The best you could get in 1st edition) and gave them an aura that was pretty much a perma-bless. On top of that they also were auto resurrected if they died once a month. If they died during the cooldown than they were dead forever.
[QUOTE=Zernbrog;47076973]What is the most powerful weapon you guys have ever had or made as a dm in your campaign?
Mine was during my 1st edition dnd dming phase. It was a +10 Greatsword with returning, +15 vs demons and other evil outsiders. If they were a Paladin it gave it put all their saves at 1 (The best you could get in 1st edition) and gave them an aura that was pretty much a perma-bless. On top of that they also were auto resurrected if they died once a month. If they died during the cooldown than they were dead forever.[/QUOTE]
A Directional Fortress carrying a full payload of Soulbreaker Orbs.
Fun times.
[QUOTE=Jax Strife;47076920]I swear that last panel was one of Elly's icons in a game I ran...[/QUOTE]
Well it's pretty much the embodiment of almost every character I have ever played.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;47076609]Give them titles.
Players love having something to write down on their character sheet, and this is something they'll never get rid of.
It can be official titles like "Duke" or "Lord", honorary titles like "Master of the Hunt" or "Cupbearer" and epithets like "the Great", "the Terrible".
It's totally superficial, but they'll love it when someone calls them by their title.[/QUOTE]
This. Players love titles that don't really mean anything mechanically but let them lord it over other people. Having spent two campaigns having my NPCs slap the PCs and tell them not to interrupt, I dread what they'll be like when they become Inquisitors.
Has anyone played the monk class?
It seems very weak
[QUOTE=General;47085275]Has anyone played the monk class?
It seems very weak[/QUOTE]
I don't know what to rate this because I have and it isn't.
Honestly the worst part of monks is that you're forced to be lawful, they do good damage, you don't have to worry much about gear, they're pretty tough and unless the other guy can fly or teleport you're the most mobile person around.
[QUOTE=General;47085275]Has anyone played the monk class?
It seems very weak[/QUOTE]
I played one once. Game fell apart before we rolled dice. I am cursed like this.
[QUOTE=Rents;47086402]I don't know what to rate this because I have and it isn't.
Honestly the worst part of monks is that you're forced to be lawful, they do good damage, you don't have to worry much about gear, they're pretty tough and unless the other guy can fly or teleport you're the most mobile person around.[/QUOTE]
Confirming the biggest limitation is the alignment
But otherwise, great fun class
[QUOTE=General;47085275]Has anyone played the monk class?
It seems very weak[/QUOTE]
Baseline monk and many of the monk archetypes are Tier 6, which means "worse than fighter" which means "worse than barely cutting it."
The best monk archetypes boost you up to something like Tier 4, which is generally the highest a non-caster martial can go.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087390]Baseline monk and many of the monk archetypes are Tier 6, which means "worse than fighter" which means "worse than barely cutting it."
The best monk archetypes boost you up to something like Tier 4, which is generally the highest a non-caster martial can go.[/QUOTE]
rating classes in a tabletop rpg in tiers
lol are you serious
[QUOTE=elowin;47087397]rating classes in a tabletop rpg in tiers
lol are you serious[/QUOTE]
Of course, dividing the classes into tiers has been a time-honored tradition for people to point out just how annoyingly caster-centric DnD and Pathfinder are.
[quote]
[B]Tier 1[/B]: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
[B]Examples[/B]: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)
[B]Tier 2[/B]: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.
[B]Examples[/B]: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Erudite (No Spell to Power)
[B]Tier 3[/B]: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
[B]Examples[/B]: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior
[B]Tier 4[/B]: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
[B]Examples[/B]: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)
[B]Tier 5[/B]: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.
[B]Examples[/B]: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai (with Imperious Command available)
[B]Tier 6[/B]: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.
[B]Examples[/B]: CW Samurai (without Imperious Command available), Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner[/quote]
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087448]Of course, dividing the classes into tiers has been a time-honored tradition for people to point out just how annoyingly caster-centric DnD and Pathfinder are.[/QUOTE]
literally not true
especially in pathfinder
[QUOTE=elowin;47087492]literally not true
especially in pathfinder[/QUOTE]
Twenty of the twenty-nine classes in pathfinder(not counting alternate classes or any third-party shit) are casters, to some degree. If you don't have some sort of caster in your party late-game, you're probably fucked unless you got really good [I]magic[/I] equipment.
And as far as D&D goes, in 5th at least, the only class that outright does not have the capability of being a caster is Barbarian. Everything else either is a caster to start out with, or gets the option to become one at 3rd level.
So yes, it is caster-centric.
[QUOTE=elowin;47087492]literally not true
especially in pathfinder[/QUOTE]
Linear Warrior/Quadratic Wizard is a trope Pathfinder lives by, bro. At the right level and with enough time to custom-tailor their spells, there is literally nothing a rogue or fighter can do that a wizard can't do better.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087558]Linear Warrior/Quadratic Wizard is a trope Pathfinder lives by, bro. At the right level and with enough time to custom-tailor their spells, there is literally nothing a rogue or fighter can do that a wizard can't do better.[/QUOTE]
Fighting a creature with spell resistance and immunity to cold, fire, electricity, acid and sonic attacks, inside an anti-magic field, at melee range.
No shit, D&D is a high fantasy setting, also you're missing the point if you pick classes purely on which has the best numbers.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47087581]Fighting a creature with spell resistance and immunity to cold, fire, electricity, acid and sonic attacks, inside an anti-magic field, at melee range.[/QUOTE]
What is an incredibly unlikely scenario that, if it ever came up, would be quickly regarded as an attempt by the DM to completely fuck over the wizard for absolutely no reason?
It's like complaining that more cybernetics gives you too much of an advantage in CP2020.
[QUOTE=Rents;47087593]Not shit, D&D is a high fantasy setting, also you're missing the point if you pick classes purely on which has the best numbers.[/QUOTE]
High Fantasy does not excuse the fighters going from "I hit things with sword good" to "I hit things *multiple times* with sword *very* good."
The fighter should feel more akin to Achilles, Diomedes or Hercules at the mid-high levels, not the same fighter with slightly better stats and the ability to swing their sword more than once.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087597]What is an incredibly unlikely scenario that, if it ever came up, would be quickly regarded as an attempt by the DM to completely fuck over the wizard for absolutely no reason?[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to claim that high-level wizards aren't OP, because they are, but they still have weaknesses that a GM (extradidacticly) or villain (intradidacticly) can exploit. I gave an example of a no-holds-barred wizard beatdown. There's plenty of ways to counter them in less brutal ways.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087607]High Fantasy does not excuse the fighters going from "I hit things with sword good" to "I hit things *multiple times* with sword *very* good."
The fighter should feel more akin to Achilles, Diomedes or Hercules at the mid-high levels, not the same fighter with slightly better stats and the ability to swing their sword more than once.[/QUOTE]
That's kinda what Fighters are though, they're the best at hitting people with bits of metal and get a load of feats to make them the best with their prefered type of metal thing, although you can use those feats for other things that interest you as well.
Slayer or Cavalier are good not-magic choices instead of fighter if you want. Nothing's forcing people to play Urist McGreatax of Clan Cleave Path.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47087638]I'm not going to claim that high-level wizards aren't OP, because they are, but they still have weaknesses that a GM (extradidacticly) or villain (intradidacticly) can exploit. I gave an example of a no-holds-barred wizard beatdown. There's plenty of ways to counter them in less brutal ways.[/QUOTE]
It's just that the best way to counter a wizard is with another wizard, and I'm quite frankly exasperated at this model Paizo has made where they're going for something with "gritty realism, unless magic is involved."
Like fuck, this isn't even a problem with just casters; monsters generally get some pretty insane HP, to-hit and AC bloat by the high levels which most martials simply can't keep up with, especially for AC.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087558]Linear Warrior/Quadratic Wizard is a trope Pathfinder lives by, bro. At the right level and with enough time to custom-tailor their spells, there is literally nothing a rogue or fighter can do that a wizard can't do better.[/QUOTE]
Theoretically? Sure. A wizard, assuming he knows every spell (he won't, but theoretically he could), with infinite preperation time (he won't, but theoretically he could), one hundred percent calling exactly what he will need (he won't), and at the highest level, would be ridiculously overpowered.
Practically? no.
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