[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;47088727]As a tangent, I had a thought. If you guys ever wanna put your players in a moral dilemma, make them trust an NPC, and have the NPC do something bad.
Let's say there's an informant for them, tells the party really useful information a lot of the time. Then you spring it on them that the informant killed a dude in cold blood.
Now they have a dilemma, they like this dude, but at the same time, he's a killer. But the information he's given you is really good and has definitely saved lives, but at what price did he go to get it? And are you guys responsible?
MORALITY.[/QUOTE]
Implying your characters care about morality and not loot and mad gainz
Just play what seems fun, fuck everything else.
[editline]6th February 2015[/editline]
Pick a character concept first and then choose a class that matches it.
[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;47089228]Implying your characters care about morality and not loot and mad gainz[/QUOTE]
Doing goods before loots.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;47089366]Doing goods before loots.[/QUOTE]
Goods meaning material, tradable things.
[QUOTE=General;47088479]I'm currently watching Itmejp's roleplay thing
I guess the DM has custom rules[/QUOTE]
OKAY! Huge rollplay fan nerd here.
Yeah, they're playing a heavily customized version of 2nde and neal is a shit gm. The only characters the cast will ever play are rogues, wizards, and fighters. Maybe a cleric. Neal straight up tells them that fighters are better rangers and he hates druids. He's super strict with clerics, people lose their spells, and nobody EVER plays a paladin.
I'm so glad he switched to 5th edition. (And that JP got other dms)
I'll still watch it though, even if neal a shit.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47088228]Which reminds me.
Exalted 3rd Edition.
I has it. Old players, role call![/QUOTE]
Yes hello, i think i was part of that group
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47087448]Of course, dividing the classes into tiers has been a time-honored tradition for people to point out just how annoyingly caster-centric DnD and Pathfinder are.[/QUOTE]
The list is accurate in the most general way. It is for overall class ability. Specific circumstances like play-style, the type of GM, and the type of adventure will shift classes up and down tiers. In a game centered around the party not having ready access to weapons the Monk will be a beast compared to higher tier martials. Likewise an extremely magic focused game will have even weaker casters move up tiers because of the circumstances and ease of magic item access; at the same time a shitty martial class that's built exclusively to take down casters will also rise in tier by nature of their natural enemy being everywhere.
Plus the people that compile those lists generally never have access to the plethora of extra material available for the class that can push it to new heights.
The list isn't wrong, it's just not an MMO cheat-sheet with hard mathematical numbers that only change 3 times a year with a new patch.
[QUOTE=elowin;47087771]That's stupid, and has always been stupid.
HP in D&D does not make any sense if you make it an abstract system.
Besides that, there's literally no arguing that higher level characters are basically mythological bullshit figures anyway. If you want gritty realism, stick to the very low levels, or preferably, another fucking game.[/QUOTE]
Didn't you and I argue for like 3 pages in a previous edition of this thread over this very thing? It's been a long time now and I don't remember who it was. Someone here busted my balls over this argument anyway.
For the record I've always thought HP in D&D as some kind of redundant AC narrative device was not only thematically stupid but wholly uncreative with the mechanics available (AC/HP/Non-Lethal).
I'd walk right the fuck out of a game if the GM told me [I]"Your armor protects you from the attack"[/I] with AC and then later says [I]"You dodged the attack, you take 4 points of HP damage"[/I] when I got hit. That's just lazy shit.
[QUOTE=elowin;47087817]I'm not going to argue against there being certain combinations of spells that are ridiculously OP. That's fact. Every class has some utterly crazy, game breaking combinations, but yes, casters have the best ones.
But overall wizards are not nearly as OP as people make them out to be, unless you are specifically trying to break the game with them. It's not a problem unless you're playing with utter twats.[/QUOTE]
Optimizers are bad players, both for the DM and other players. They usually have a out-of-theme solution to every puzzle and battle (ex: a pyromancer deciding to cast an ice sheet to slow an enemy for a turn) and usually are a bore for other players who made their character solely based on what's fun or a specific theme that has weaknesses as much as strengths and thus have personal struggles in the game while the optimizer plays "jack of all trades".
So I'm gonna have my first time ever playing DnD tomorrow
and I'm the DM
and the party is [I]seven players[/I]
and I have done absolutely no planning whatsoever outside of the very beginning, so I'm going to have to play it by ear once the party exits the first dungeon
so yeah, this is looking pretty good
Improvisation trial by fire, man.
Also with seven players odds are good that they'll be plenty able to distract eachother with roleplay
[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;47090951]So I'm gonna have my first time ever playing DnD tomorrow
and I'm the DM
and the party is [I]seven players[/I]
and I have done absolutely no planning whatsoever outside of the very beginning, so I'm going to have to play it by ear once the party exits the first dungeon
so yeah, this is looking pretty good[/QUOTE]
Rats.
Level 1, first quest - Always rats :v:
[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;47090951]So I'm gonna have my first time ever playing DnD tomorrow
and I'm the DM
and the party is [I]seven players[/I]
and I have done absolutely no planning whatsoever outside of the very beginning, so I'm going to have to play it by ear once the party exits the first dungeon
so yeah, this is looking pretty good[/QUOTE]
Don't be afraid to give XP for non-combat stuff, like bypassing a fight, dealing with traps or situations, or good roleplaying. Combat shouldn't be the ONLY way you gain levels!
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47091124]Rats.
Level 1, first quest - Always rats :v:[/QUOTE]
The twist is that they're plague rats and all characters must pay blood tribute to survive their illness
[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47091218]The twist is that they're plague rats and all characters must pay blood tribute to survive their illness[/QUOTE]
I can neither confirm nor deny this statement.
What if it's a giant rat.
Like, a really, really big rat. Huge sized rat.
With mangy fur and covered in pustules.
[sp]The thing is surprisingly easy to kill because it's terminally diseased, but not before coating the party in it's pus and toxins. Now the race is on to find the Rat King and, hopefully, a cure.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Chronische;47091162]Don't be afraid to give XP for non-combat stuff, like bypassing a fight, dealing with traps or situations, or good roleplaying. Combat shouldn't be the ONLY way you gain levels![/QUOTE]
I think this is the reason I stopped playing with a friend who DMs. He only gave XP for combat. Everything was about combat. Honestly combat was one of the more boring parts of everything, and it felt like each session was combat, a little bit of fun roleplay, combat, end and repeat next time. I'll have to look for some other group to play with once I get them time. Maybe try something other than DnD.
[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;47090951]So I'm gonna have my first time ever playing DnD tomorrow
and I'm the DM
and the party is [I]seven players[/I]
and I have done absolutely no planning whatsoever outside of the very beginning, so I'm going to have to play it by ear once the party exits the first dungeon
so yeah, this is looking pretty good[/QUOTE]
You'll be fine dude, as long as you have a bit of knowledge of the rules you ought to be able to guide a pack of cats through any RPG. High Five for Improv as well.
[QUOTE=Gnomical;47091985]I think this is the reason I stopped playing with a friend who DMs. He only gave XP for combat. Everything was about combat. Honestly combat was one of the more boring parts of everything, and it felt like each session was combat, a little bit of fun roleplay, combat, end and repeat next time. I'll have to look for some other group to play with once I get them time. Maybe try something other than DnD.[/QUOTE]
I was horrified to find out that when I played DnD I got bonus XP for not sharing gold with the group and keeping it for myself. There didn't really seem to be anything to spend my gold on at the time, or save up for, it was spooky and unnerving. Still kept onto it though, level four baby!
[QUOTE=Axznma;47090194]Didn't you and I argue for like 3 pages in a previous edition of this thread over this very thing? It's been a long time now and I don't remember who it was. Someone here busted my balls over this argument anyway.
For the record I've always thought HP in D&D as some kind of redundant AC narrative device was not only thematically stupid but wholly uncreative with the mechanics available (AC/HP/Non-Lethal).
I'd walk right the fuck out of a game if the GM told me [I]"Your armor protects you from the attack"[/I] with AC and then later says [I]"You dodged the attack, you take 4 points of HP damage"[/I] when I got hit. That's just lazy shit.[/QUOTE]
I've had multiple arguments over it in this thread, so, probably.
HP as magical plot armor makes absolutely no sense, and as you said, armor and dodging is already covered through armor class, making it pretty redundant as well.
[QUOTE=cyclocius;47092257]You'll be fine dude, as long as you have a bit of knowledge of the rules you ought to be able to guide a pack of cats through any RPG. High Five for Improv as well.
I was horrified to find out that when I played DnD I got bonus XP for not sharing gold with the group and keeping it for myself. There didn't really seem to be anything to spend my gold on at the time, or save up for, it was spooky and unnerving. Still kept onto it though, level four baby![/QUOTE]
It's classic D&D right there, rewarding greed! It also makes the XP gain go just a little bit faster. You can always get some horses or spend it on partying between adventures after all!
[QUOTE=elowin;47092356]I've had multiple arguments over it in this thread, so, probably.
HP as magical plot armor makes absolutely no sense, and as you said, armor and dodging is already covered through armor class, making it pretty redundant as well.[/QUOTE]
Coming in late on this little discussion of how silly AC and HP are done in pathfinder and 3.5
there're actually rules that change things up, like AC as damage reduction, and a wounds and vigor system.
so put simply, instead of your armor stopping you from receiving damage it absorbs it, which makes more sense than failing to hit the slow moving full plate guy.
Wounds and vigor is describe as vigor can be considered a shield for wounds, they are drained from first, it's also more describe as with taking damage as cuts bruises and nothing super serious, but you're getting worn down. wounds are like actually getting a pretty serious slash from that sword or great axe.
here are links to the alternate rules in case i didn't describe it well.
Wounds and Vigor:
[url]http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/woundsAndVigor.html[/url]
AC as DR:
[url]http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/armorAsDamageReduction.html[/url]
If you want those rules PF and 3.5 are really NOT AT ALL the games to be using them in. Just play something like Warhammer Fantasy RPG if you want DR and more realism with your wound system. D&D just doesn't emulate that well at all.
We've been over this every 5 pages or so.
[QUOTE=elowin;47092356]I've had multiple arguments over it in this thread, so, probably.
HP as magical plot armor makes absolutely no sense, and as you said, armor and dodging is already covered through armor class, making it pretty redundant as well.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, HP isn't at all meant to represent dodging it. If you're doing it in the abstract way that got mentioned somewhere, then roughly 3/4 of your hp represents superficial hits; stuff that makes contact and leaves scratches/small cuts, but doesn't do much besides maybe draw a bit of blood and cause a small amount of pain. The last 1/4 is straight up damage, with attacks being what you would otherwise expect when someone swings a sword at you.
I do agree, though, that it's a confusing way of doing it. Hence why I prefer the wounds/vigor system for that sort of thing, but w/e, it's the GM's call.
[QUOTE=Chronische;47093300]If you want those rules PF and 3.5 are really NOT AT ALL the games to be using them in. Just play something like Warhammer Fantasy RPG if you want DR and more realism with your wound system. D&D just doesn't emulate that well at all.
We've been over this every 5 pages or so.[/QUOTE]
i can agree with this and i've played 3.5 and play pathfinder :v
there's no real way to represent taking a sword the gut and not dying from infection and all that crap. These alt rules just make it more interesting and combat less, hmmm, weird is the best way i can put it.
[QUOTE=Intense Funkid;47093316]i can agree with this and i've played 3.5 and play pathfinder :v
there's no real way to represent taking a sword the gut and not dying from infection and all that crap. These alt rules just make it more interesting and combat less, hmmm, weird is the best way i can put it.[/QUOTE]
No dude they make it MORE weird since the PIDDLY amount of DR you are getting doesn't help much in the face of the HUGE damage amounts that 3.5 and PF throw around as early as 5th level. ESPECIALLY since it means AC is not going up too, as it REPLACES AC. That means you are going to get SHREDDED. It's a terrible idea for PF, just use another system if you want those kind of rules.
[QUOTE=Chronische;47093328]No dude they make it MORE weird since the PIDDLY amount of DR you are getting doesn't help much in the face of the HUGE damage amounts that 3.5 and PF throw around as early as 5th level. ESPECIALLY since it means AC is not going up too, as it REPLACES AC. That means you are going to get SHREDDED. It's a terrible idea for PF, just use another system if you want those kind of rules.[/QUOTE]
i mean we've been playtesting it for a while, people in heavy armor take shit for damage unless it's magic, and you can still stack AC if you get magic items and whatnot. i understand what you're going for but it works for us :v
Death Ray is both the most generic and phenomenally awesome Solar Circle Spell I think I've ever seen.
[QUOTE=Intense Funkid;47093337]i mean we've been playtesting it for a while, people in heavy armor take shit for damage unless it's magic, and you can still stack AC if you get magic items and whatnot. i understand what you're going for but it works for us :v[/QUOTE]
So in other words you added DR TO the pre-existing AC system? By reading it it seems ALL AC gets turned into DR, including from rings of protection or whatnot. What level are you playing, since damage starts getting pretty ridiculous from even a moderately well built character at around level 5-7. Dinky 10 dr or so will lower damage but not by enough to not get dead from, for example, a flurry attack from a monk or brawler.
[QUOTE=Chronische;47093350]So in other words you added DR TO the pre-existing AC system? By reading it it seems ALL AC gets turned into DR, including from rings of protection or whatnot. What level are you playing, since damage starts getting pretty ridiculous from even a moderately well built character at around level 5-7. Dinky 10 dr or so will lower damage but not by enough to not get dead from, for example, a flurry attack from a monk or brawler.[/QUOTE]
It depends on the kind of magic armor you get, because not all magic is just "it is ac" some effects act like shields or deflect bonuses, so that's what bolsters your AC, armor itself and things like bracers of armor count towards DR. so for example you could have magic armor that adds a flat ac bonus, then cast shield on yourself which counts as a deflect, and on top of your dex can still get you around 20+ ac depending on the enchantments you get.
to the flurry attack, the dr is applied to each attack, so a flurry which 3 attacks will have dr applied to the 3 seperate attacks assuming they all hit. so lets say this enemy has a DR 9, i have a brawler at around level 4-5, which with my brawler is a d8+10 damage (power attack +4, str mod +4, brawling armor +2) the dr would absorb 9 of the 10, and you'd take the rest, so it's more like a d8+1 in terms of damage for each attack.
[QUOTE=Intense Funkid;47093291]:words:[/QUOTE]
The wounds and vigor system still doesn't make much sense.
Take for example, a fireball. You're caught in the middle of a giant, fiery explosion, you fail your reflex roll for half damage, you take the full blunt of it. Let's say it does 8d6 damage. An average person has somewhere around five to ten HP. How do you avoid this damage? It's literally an explosion of fire, right in your face, with enough power to kill a normal person a dozen times over. You're getting fucking scorched. The only thing protecting you in this circumstance is the fact that you're a mythological being equivalent in power to Achilles.
Also, one of my favorite examples, poisoned weapons. How the fuck does a poison that has to go into your bloodstream work if an attack is "just a scratch"? It absolutely doesn't work. At all. Thus you can only assume that you got stabbed well and good, letting the poison spread in your bloodstream.
It simply doesn't make any logical sense if damage isn't damage.
There's also the issue that the wounds and vigor system completely erodes what little semblance of balance that existed in D&D to begin with, but that's a completely different problem altogether.
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