[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;47191450]Huh, didn't think the Zelda universe lended itself to having heroes other than Link. Same with Third Era Middle Earth, the biggest of the bads is already fated to die by someone else's hand. As it is written, Link must defeat Ganon.[/QUOTE]
Well it's not like Ganon is the only threat to the world, or that the Hero of whatever can't have some help. There was that adventuring party in Twilight Princess who went around doing their own thing, including helping Link out a couple of times.
[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;47191450]Huh, didn't think the Zelda universe lended itself to having heroes other than Link. Same with Third Era Middle Earth, the biggest of the bads is already fated to die by someone else's hand. As it is written, Link must defeat Ganon.
[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on how you define 'Link'. If you think of him as the 'hero with the Triforce of Courage', then suddenly things get a lot more broad, since he doesn't always have to act the same and look the same.
Failing that, just make your own Zelda universe. It's not like it has to follow the 'rules' that the games set up.
[QUOTE=Rents;47193003]After a closer look as the rules for vehicle speeds in Shadowrun 5th ed, I've discovered it's possible to get into orbit with a nudge from magic, some cyberware, a sports car and a ramp.
[editline]22nd February 2015[/editline]
Without the spirit assistance you can only manage a measly 6.9km/s, or about Mach 10 for people who don't like metric.[/QUOTE]
unless that acceleration is gradual, you'll also flatten into paste from the gforces, so that might not be the best idea
[QUOTE=lintz;47193607]unless that acceleration is gradual, you'll also flatten into paste from the gforces, so that might not be the best idea[/QUOTE]
Realism? In a P&P RPG?
Hey guys, get a load of this dude.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;47193618]Realism? In a P&P RPG?
Hey guys, get a load of this dude.[/QUOTE]
right ok sure
let me just build a peasant cannon and decimate the better half of a continent because there were no rules against passing a ladder at mach 5
Peasant cannon is hilarious though.
As is this:
[QUOTE]
[B]How to kill a Tarrasque in 3 easy levels[/B]
No particular feats required.
No particular items required.
Don't bribe the DM, because even hinting at that is RUINING FUN AND CAUSES RAGE!
Be a wizard of level 3.
Put on your robe and wizard hat.
Cast Command Undead on an allip (it's a CR 3 monster, if you can't find any just learn to cast Summon Undead.)
Cast Silent Image in front of the Tarrasque or Invisibility on yourself.
Have the allip attack it. Every hit will take off 3 wisdom on average with no saving throw, and the Tarrasque has an abysmal touch AC, with no way to hit incorporeal targets.
Once at 0 wisdom, it'll be unconscious until its ability score is restored. Shovel dirt into the nasal passages and sinuses of the disabled Tarrasque so it can't breathe.
Per the MM, regeneration does not restore HP lost from suffocation, so it will be stuck at negative hit points, at least until some retard unpacks the dirt from its sinuses.
Congratulations! For defeating the Tarrasque, you're now a level 4 wizard, with 1 XP away from level 5. Make some wealth by opening a Bar and Grill on its back.
For added hilarity, take the Precocious Apprentice feat and with some mildly lucky rolls do this at level 1.
Equally Legal Alternative: Works at level 18.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DarkMonkey;47193114]Well it's not like Ganon is the only threat to the world, or that the Hero of whatever can't have some help. There was that adventuring party in Twilight Princess who went around doing their own thing, including helping Link out a couple of times.[/QUOTE]
Not many people like playing siderolls when there's an all-important hero knocking about, nor tackle small time villians when the incarnation of all evil is up and about eviling everything you can unevil.
[editline]23rd February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=MeltingData;47193139]I think it depends on how you define 'Link'. If you think of him as the 'hero with the Triforce of Courage', then suddenly things get a lot more broad, since he doesn't always have to act the same and look the same.
Failing that, just make your own Zelda universe. It's not like it has to follow the 'rules' that the games set up.[/QUOTE]
Alternate universe is probably the way to go, and not unprecedented in the series. I would love playing a little Deku Scrub who's in way over their bushy head but survives on wiles.
[QUOTE=DiscoInferno;47194382]Not many people like playing siderolls when there's an all-important hero knocking about, nor tackle small time villians when the incarnation of all evil is up and about eviling everything you can unevil.
[editline]23rd February 2015[/editline]
Alternate universe is probably the way to go, and not unprecedented in the series. I would love playing a little Deku Scrub who's in way over their bushy head but survives on wiles.[/QUOTE]
True, there are times and places when Ganon isn't in the picture and so neither is the Hero. Like Termina on the extreme end, or just somewhere between the main timeline games.
In other news, character generation and preparations continue apace for my XCOM game using ops and tactics. It's gonna be interesting balancing the aliens against all of the explosives and weight of fire they're picking up.
Today, I forced everyone into a literal recap episode for Aperture's MB game. I think I spewed about 9 months worth of plot points at people for 4 hours before all the bases were covered. And then I got a nice shape shifting sword for wasting everyone's time. This was the pinnacle of progress, self entitlement, and ego stroking, if I do say so myself. [sp]Though both me and the GM agreed that it was kind of needed since everyone was on different pages about most of the topics, so now everyone should have the same knowledge base roughly from here on out.[/sp]
[QUOTE=lintz;47193783]right ok sure
let me just build a peasant cannon and decimate the better half of a continent because there were no rules against passing a ladder at mach 5[/QUOTE]
Mach 5 is small time, I'll be doing Mach 40 or 80 depending how good our mage is with air spirits.
These thought experiments such as the peasant railgun really depend on you having an awful GM that follows the rules blindly and doesn't know how to say no.
The really crazy stuff such as that and Pun pun really don't make it beyond the theoretical stage because everyone except the really worst GMs simply wouldn't allow it.
So last nights session ended in a huge slaughter.
We were supposed to gather meat for a baron in a forest. Over half of the encounter rolls ended with us fighting shit.
At the end of the session
5 boars
6 wolves
2 elks
1 fire salamander
1 snake
1 giant as fuck scorpion (holy fuck that thing was annoying.)
and some kind of giant bird with an elk head and sharp teeth had lost their lives to our group.
Most of the encounters happened right after each other. So there were no time to rest/regain spell uses
Only one member of the group ever went down. And was instantly saved by yours truly.
I also two-shotted the elk-bird thing with my holy magic, before anyone else got to react on it.
My awesome as shit Cleric is now level 3 :v:
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;47196346]These thought experiments such as the peasant railgun really depend on you having an awful GM that follows the rules blindly and doesn't know how to say no.
The really crazy stuff such as that and Pun pun really don't make it beyond the theoretical stage because everyone except the really worst GMs simply wouldn't allow it.[/QUOTE]
that's really obvious
doesn't make it less funny that it's possible in the system
[QUOTE=elowin;47196693]that's really obvious
doesn't make it less funny that it's possible in the system[/QUOTE]
Actually, a fair reading of the rules makes it [I]im[/I]possible. Readied actions do not automatically work - that's why you still have to roll your attack after bracing a weapon, or just readying an ambush.
The peasant railgun is just a case of faulty proof-by-induction - any one move would be legal and require no skill check on its own, but in combination, in one round, they would require at the very least a skill check or two once it gets moving fast enough. Since you're not going to get a hundred peasants that can make epic-level dexterity and strength checks, you're out of luck, and the post would probably get dropped after just a few people.
And if you can find a hundred characters who can make DC40 dex checks, there are far better things to do than railgun ladders.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47196798]Actually, a fair reading of the rules makes it [I]im[/I]possible. Readied actions do not automatically work - that's why you still have to roll your attack after bracing a weapon, or just readying an ambush.
The peasant railgun is just a case of faulty proof-by-induction - any one move would be legal and require no skill check on its own, but in combination, in one round, they would require at the very least a skill check or two once it gets moving fast enough. Since you're not going to get a hundred peasants that can make epic-level dexterity and strength checks, you're out of luck, and the post would probably get dropped after just a few people.
And if you can find a hundred characters who can make DC40 dex checks, there are far better things to do than railgun ladders.[/QUOTE]
It works RAW
[QUOTE=elowin;47196875]It works RAW[/QUOTE]
Let's see about that. All I have handy are the Pathfinder rules, if you want to dig up the 3.5 or 4E or whatever rules so we can argue about them, you can.
[quote=Core Rulebook, 4th printing, page 203]Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying:
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters:
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Readying to Counterspell:
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge:
You can ready weapons with the brace feature , setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.[/quote]
Let's look at the key lines:
[I]The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.[/I]
All the ready action does is [I]prepare[/I] to perform an action. It says nothing about the action itself, which would be governed by the rules for that action.
[I]You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.[/I]
Notably not listed: impossible actions.
[I]You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster
when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell.
A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.[/I]
Five-foot-steps as a readied action explicitly follow the rules for normal five-foot-steps.
Readied attacks (against a spellcaster, or against a charge) explicitly are noted as being able to miss, implicitly ruling that they follow the rules for normal attacks.
Counterspelling as a readied action explicitly requires a specific skill check in addition to the normal conditions for casting a spell.
The obvious, though not explicit, rule is that readied actions follow all normal rules for that action. You are merely changing the relative order in which it happens on a turn. Read-as-written, it is ambiguous but obvious.
Let's reduce it to a more absurd case. The only way you can claim the peasant-railgun is legal is to claim that readied actions automatically succeed. In that case, why use peasants? Simply ready an action to throw a javelin at 0.8c, in response to another party member blinking. That should save you 100gp or so in wages. Would you argue that, read-as-written, that is legal, under any system?
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47196996]Notably not listed: impossible actions.[/QUOTE]
lol
this is the worst snipe i've seen this month
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47196996]Let's reduce it to a more absurd case. The only way you can claim the peasant-railgun is legal is to claim that readied actions automatically succeed. In that case, why use peasants? Simply ready an action to throw a javelin at 0.8c, in response to another party member blinking. That should save you 100gp or so in wages. Would you argue that, read-as-written, that is legal, under any system?[/QUOTE]
Throwing something at a square has no chance of failure. Throwing an item is a standard action. Picking up an item is a move action. One peasant throws the rock at a square next to the next peasant, who then spends a move action to pick it up and throw it to the next peasant, et cetera.
RAW, this is how it works. You can make an argument that it wouldn't work in practice, but that would be stupid as hell because that's fucking obvious and nobody is arguing that it would.
[QUOTE=elowin;47197017]Throwing something at a square has no chance of failure. Throwing an item is a standard action. Picking up an item is a move action. One peasant throws the rock at a square next to the next peasant, who then spends a move action to pick it up and throw it to the next peasant, et cetera.[/QUOTE]
I believe you can only ready one action, not two.
[QUOTE=Glent;47197143]I believe you can only ready one action, not two.[/QUOTE]
The issue with the railgun was, I thought, that passing an item to someone else was a swift/free action and therefore you could have a chain of people pass something lightning fast.
[QUOTE=Chronische;47197173]The issue with the railgun was, I thought, that passing an item to someone else was a swift/free action and therefore you could have a chain of people pass something lightning fast.[/QUOTE]
Even if that is the case, I'm pretty sure there's no rules for something dealing damage based on the speed it's moving at, so while the railgun idea is funny it requires you to apply logic to one thing (something moving fast dealing alot of damage) and ignore logic for another thing.
Otherwise, when the last peasant throws the stick or ladder or whatever you're using, it'll just deal whatever the damage of a stick or ladder or whatever you're using is.
[QUOTE=elowin;47197017]Throwing something at a square has no chance of failure.[/QUOTE]
Does it? Even Colossal creatures can be completely missed, and they're dozens of squares across. True, a mere +2 attack bonus is enough to make it truly impossible in normal conditions, but peasants don't get +2 to anything.
[QUOTE=elowin;47197017]Picking up an item is a move action. One peasant throws the rock at a square next to the next peasant, who then spends a move action to pick it up and throw it to the next peasant, et cetera.[/QUOTE]
Are the peasants throwing it on the ground and picking it up, or catching it mid-flight and throwing it on again? I would rule that, if it lands on the ground, they can't pick it up until the next turn, and if they're catching it they need to pass a reflex save or dexterity check.
[QUOTE=elowin;47197017]RAW, this is how it works. You can make an argument that it wouldn't work in practice, but that would be stupid as hell because that's fucking obvious and nobody is arguing that it would.[/QUOTE]
Actually, something I didn't notice: RAW, you can't ready an action to be performed [b]after[/b] someone else, but must [b]interrupt[/b] them ("The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.").
So you actually would have to snatch it out of the hands of the person behind you as he tries to do something (throw it perhaps?), but that's clearly not an automatic success, and obviously penalties should apply for doing so with a fast-moving object.
[QUOTE=Glent;47197213]Even if that is the case, I'm pretty sure there's no rules for something dealing damage based on the speed it's moving at, so while the railgun idea is funny it requires you to apply logic to one thing (something moving fast dealing alot of damage) and ignore logic for another thing.
Otherwise, when the last peasant throws the stick or ladder or whatever you're using, it'll just deal whatever the damage of a stick or ladder or whatever you're using is.[/QUOTE]
you're completely missing the point
it's not seriously meant as a weapon of mass destruction, it's just an example of some of the stupid shit you can do in D&D because of it's turn based nature.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47197256]whatever[/QUOTE]
yeah i actually completely forgot how it actually works. you don't throw it for the next peasant in line, all the peasants are standing next to each other and pass it to the next one. and they're not readying actions, they're delaying.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47197256]I would rule that[/QUOTE]
and again, this is the part where you're [i]somehow[/i] completely missing the idea
this is a joke about how bonkers the game is RAW, that is, the rules as they are written, not as they are intended, or how you interpret them
if I was a gm and you organized enough peasants for it to happen I'd totally fucking let you
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;47197723]if I was a gm and you organized enough peasants for it to happen I'd totally fucking let you[/QUOTE]
i probably would too but that's just because my D&D games are pretty much all silly as fuck
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;47197723]if I was a gm and you organized enough peasants for it to happen I'd totally fucking let you[/QUOTE]
To be honest, You could pay them 10 silver each to have them do it all day and the next day the tavern would be sold out of alcohol.
[QUOTE=elowin;47197656]and again, this is the part where you're [i]somehow[/i] completely misunderstanding this.
this is a joke about how bonkers the game is RAW, your interpretations are completely irrelevant[/QUOTE]
Read literally as written, there are no rules for passing a ladder to someone, so it can't happen. There's no rules for momentum, so even if it did happen, the last peasant in line would just drop it in front of him. There's no rules for damage scaling with velocity, so even if they fired at point-blank range, it would just be an improvised weapon of whatever size, probably just 1d6 damage. Hell, there's no rules explicitly saying breathing is a free action (or even any sort of action), so every game should end after a dozen turns from suffocation, because there [I]are[/I] rules for suffocating.
The rules absolutely need interpretation once you do ANYTHING more complicated than basic grid movement and simple attacks. Saying that you can do ridiculous stuff when you try to interpret the rules literally is almost tautologically stupid. The whole reason there [I]aren't[/I] comprehensive rules covering every single little thing is because the game has a GM who is supposed to apply rational, reasonable judgement to novel situations. And yes, there's a rule saying that, so RAW, the GM gets to decide this shit.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47197778]Read literally as written, there are no rules for passing a ladder to someone, so it can't happen. There's no rules for momentum, so even if it did happen, the last peasant in line would just drop it in front of him. There's no rules for damage scaling with velocity, so even if they fired at point-blank range, it would just be an improvised weapon of whatever size, probably just 1d6 damage. Hell, there's no rules explicitly saying breathing is a free action (or even any sort of action), so every game should end after a dozen turns from suffocation, because there [I]are[/I] rules for suffocating.
The rules absolutely need interpretation once you do ANYTHING more complicated than basic grid movement and simple attacks. Saying that you can do ridiculous stuff when you try to interpret the rules literally is almost tautologically stupid. The whole reason there [I]aren't[/I] comprehensive rules covering every single little thing is because the game has a GM who is supposed to apply rational, reasonable judgement to novel situations. And yes, there's a rule saying that, so RAW, the GM gets to decide this shit.[/QUOTE]
wow
you really just don't get it
at all
[QUOTE=elowin;47197798]wow
you really just don't get it
at all[/QUOTE]
You're selectively applying RAW to get weird results. If you interpret things reasonably, you get a reasonable result. If you consistently apply the rules as they're written, you still get a fairly reasonable result (the peasants pass the ladder around at ridiculous speed, but the end result is the same as just one peasant throwing it). It's only when you apply literal rules when passing the ladder around to build up speed, then start applying real-world physics to deal damage, that you start getting inconsistent results.
Basically, this can only happen if the GM lets the players dictate not just their actions, but the results - letting the payers, not the GM, make the rulings. At which point, why bother with complicated logic? Just say "I wave my hands and instantly resolve the plot", point out that there's no rules for solving the plot as a standard action, then let your doormat of a GM give up and let you win.
I can't believe you guys are seriously still having this conversation
You are literally arguing about selective realism in a game where you can kill someone by swinging a sword at them [I]or[/I] by throwing a fucking fireball at them.
Peasant Railgun is never going to work in a real scenario, unless the DM is an idiot or allows it to work for the sake of fun. [url=http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun]End of story.[/url]
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