[QUOTE=Rents;47457072]They were being pretty stupid then, CE doesn't mean you have to fly off the rails all the time, especially when it's got a pretty high chance of getting yourself killed.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that wasn't chaotic evil, that was chaotic retarded.
Evil alignments put themselves as their #1 priority. If you do "evil" that doesn't benefit you, and even hurts you, then you're not being an evil character, just a retarded one.
CE isn't a player alignment anyway.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47457121]CE isn't a player alignment anyway.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say that, CE can cause issues, no doubt, a CE character will happily run and leave other PCs to die if they don't like the odds, steal, lie and cheat if they think they can get away with it and at the extreme end kill things for giggles.
But it's also really fun to play someone forced to work with others to protect their own interest or someone with ulterior motives.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47457121]CE isn't a player alignment anyway.[/QUOTE]
Any alignment, [I]played properly[/I], can be a player alignment.
The only alignments players shouldn't be allowed to be are the stupid alignments - chaotic retarded and lawful dumb.
Salvage the game by having the characters wake up as animated skeletons on the bottom of the ocean. Proceed into a seabed adventure featuring all of those aquatic races that never get used.
[QUOTE=DarkMonkey;47457217]Salvage the game by having the characters wake up as animated skeletons on the bottom of the ocean. Proceed into a seabed adventure featuring all of those aquatic races that never get used.[/QUOTE]
pull a gothic 2 and have a cool necromancer dude raise them from the dead
Any alignment, played properly, can be a PC alignment. In a solo game. A CE character has no place in a legitimate party, because if played [I]correctly[/I], the CE character will eventually attempt to backstab the party. It isn't a matter of if, but when. The deliberate choice to play such a character is awful, and you can easily make a NE or LE character who's still a total cunt, but won't eventually attempt to murder the rest of the party.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47457258]Any alignment, played properly, can be a PC alignment. In a solo game. A CE character has no place in a legitimate party, because if played [I]correctly[/I], the CE character will eventually attempt to backstab the party. It isn't a matter of if, but when. The deliberate choice to play such a character is awful, and you can easily make a NE or LE character who's still a total cunt, but won't eventually attempt to murder the rest of the party.[/QUOTE]
CE characters don't have to be stab happy at all, just that for most of them might makes right and PCs are powerful, but nothing stops them from simply parting ways with the rest of the group either if they feel they're not benefiting.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47457258]Any alignment, played properly, can be a PC alignment. In a solo game. A CE character has no place in a legitimate party, because if played [I]correctly[/I], the CE character will eventually attempt to backstab the party. It isn't a matter of if, but when. The deliberate choice to play such a character is awful, and you can easily make a NE or LE character who's still a total cunt, but won't eventually attempt to murder the rest of the party.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean there can't be a CE player, it just means the rest of the party needs to make sure the CE character has a good reason not to backstab them.
Internal tension in the party (IC, not OOC) can be a good thing. Makes things interesting, at least.
I flatly disagree. The same scenario could be played and resolved better using an LE or NE character.
CE characters aren't loyal, they're explicitly untrustworthy to the point of being a major liability.
Just because you're chaotic evil does not mean lol randumb kill things for fun and no reason. It can mean that, but it can also mean disdain for civilization, general sociopathy, etc. There are tons of races that D&D specifies as chaotic evil that nonetheless manage to exist beyond just being psychopathic solos, or even have their own societies (orcs and goblins come to mind). Are these necessarily the most functional, no, but the fact these groups even exist means that it's totally possible for a CE aligned person to recognize the long-term benefits to working with others
Sure, you can plot their downfall in every off moment, but you're not required to play like an idiot to be chaotic evil. It's not ideal for a party, but then again, most chaotic alignments tend to not be team players to begin with, and even so a party where everyone agrees on methods and such is boring as all hell
also there is so, so much that one can do with every alignment, with so much range, that any attempt to claim there is only one correct way to play it is honestly just plain wrong. Even within the extremes of the alignments there is still a ton of wiggle room for how you can act in accordance with a situation
though in regards to the original story, that totally sounds like it was their fault that they died. Explain to him that maybe if he's going to get attached he shouldn't do things that are incredibly likely to get them killed. I can appreciate being miffed by the dice fucking you or just unfortunate chains of events, but what happened there sounds just attempts to poke the vicious guard dog and not expecting to get bitten
You're objectively incorrect, Sib.
Goblins and Hobgoblins and shit exist as a species because of extreme breeding and survival of the fittest, essentially. They kill, eat and maim each other.
I'm not saying you're going to randomly spin around and cut your clerics ear off, I'm saying if you're playing a CE character, and you don't plan to steal everything of worth from your companions, you're probably playing a NE character. Would you stupidly jump into a suicidal plan? No. Would you wait until the perfect time to strike, then ruthlessly murder and thieve from your compatriots? Absolutely. Because you're CE, and you have no loyalties beyond furthering your own agendas.
Could a CE character be forced to work with a party of other members without killing them? It's possible, but it's also not possibly to continue to contrive these reasons without greatly stretching the suspension of disbelief. Quite simply, CE is not suitable to working with others.
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47457581]You're objectively incorrect, Sib.
Goblins and Hobgoblins and shit exist as a species because of extreme breeding and survival of the fittest, essentially. They kill, eat and maim each other.
I'm not saying you're going to randomly spin around and cut your clerics ear off, I'm saying if you're playing a CE character, and you don't plan to steal everything of worth from your companions, you're probably playing a NE character. Would you stupidly jump into a suicidal plan? No. Would you wait until the perfect time to strike, then ruthlessly murder and thieve from your compatriots? Absolutely. Because you're CE, and you have no loyalties beyond furthering your own agendas.
Could a CE character be forced to work with a party of other members without killing them? It's possible, but it's also not possibly to continue to contrive these reasons without greatly stretching the suspension of disbelief. Quite simply, CE is not suitable to working with others.[/QUOTE]
CE is the sociopathic alignment. Other people's wants and needs are simply ignored. Not contradicted, ignored.
An intelligent CE character kicks no puppies. An intelligent CE character doesn't commit evil acts for the sake of evil acts - an intelligent CE character commits evil acts because they benefit him.
An intelligent CE character will think long-term. Sure, betraying the party might net some short-term gains, but would the party have been more a more useful asset long-term? Probably.
An intelligent CE character won't betray the party, they'll turn the party towards their own ends. An intelligent CE character won't murder the royal NPC just for the loot - he'll worm his way in as an advisor, and mastermind a way for himself to become the new king.
An intelligent CE character will pick the LG option if that means more loot or power for himself. An intelligent CE character will [I]act like a LG character[/I] for as long as necessary.
Chaotic alignment means "damn the law, I do what I choose". Evil alignment means "fuck everyone else, I'm looking out for #1".
Neither of those necessarily involve betrayal of anybody. I might actually try playing a CE pacifist sometime, just to prove it can be done.
The alignment system is bad, end of story.
Yeah Olio I'm not really sure where the high horse came from there dude, but ya gotta dismount. All Alignments are totally justifiable for players if you have a responsible party of players. If you roll your characters independently of the rest of your party, then yeah any Chaotic or Evil Alignment will be incredibly difficult to pull off. That's why you should discuss your motivations with other players, bounce ideas off of eachother, and make that shit work.
basically just because the CE players you've seen suck massive dick doesn't mean it's unusable, or even particularly tough to pull off if you have a group of people who actually know what they're doing
[QUOTE=Rats808;47457644]The alignment system is bad, end of story.[/QUOTE]
The alignment system is easy to misuse. The biggest flaw with it is that it uses absolute-sounding terms like "good" and "evil", and implies unavoidable conflict between them.
Good alignments are altruistic. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". It is NOT about being nice, or always helping with every little thing. It's about putting the community first.
Evil alignments are about personal gain. They're the ones who pick to compete in a prisoner's dilemma. It is NOT about killing or burning or raping or enslaving - those are merely tools, used by good and evil alike.
Lawful alignments are about recognizing and following higher authority. It could be a king, or a god, or a moral code, but it's something that they follow. It is NOT about slavishly following every rule there is.
Chaotic alignments are about making your own judgements. It is NOT about blind rebellion.
A CE character, played this way, will always consider betraying their team as an option. But if they have a common goal with the team, that betrayal probably will not happen. If the party is trying to stop someone from destroying the world, the CE character will not betray them - because they need this world, after all, to live on.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;47457676]Yeah Olio I'm not really sure where the high horse came from there dude, but ya gotta dismount. All Alignments are totally justifiable for players if you have a responsible party of players. If you roll your characters independently of the rest of your party, then yeah any Chaotic or Evil Alignment will be incredibly difficult to pull off. That's why you should discuss your motivations with other players, bounce ideas off of eachother, and make that shit work.
basically just because the CE players you've seen suck massive dick doesn't mean it's unusable, or even particularly tough to pull off if you have a group of people who actually know what they're doing[/QUOTE]
When I run D&D games, I don't allow people to play evil characters. In the right group when you guys are all doing this for money, perhaps. But I'd never let a good character be in the same party as an evil character.
My group is nearing the 1 year point and the finale of the 1 year campaign I foolishly created for my first time dming. It's gone surprisingly well though and they all seem to be enjoying the world that I have created.
After the Finale, I have to go back to school for 2 years and probably won't have time to DM anymore which is disappointing, but by that time their arcane ship should be completed and someone else might take over as DM of their potential sea adventures.
As a special thing I'm going to compile most of the associated writing into a book. Character bios, recaps, stock updates (yes I do them, yes they are a pain), business correspondence, etc.
So far I've got about 50,000 words with just recaps, stock updates, and business updates, so when I add in character bios and little bits of narrative that I wrote it is going to be quite a substantial book. I'm rather excited about it, though it is going to be a massive pain to edit.
In regards to evil characters: we had one who was chaotic evil, always trying to poison strangers, started a fire cult with homeless people in a secret cave he found under his house, a murderous vendetta towards elves, etc. What ended up happening is that he found out the rest of the group was going to kill him because he was too much of a liability and he set the town they were in on fire and disappeared. Now he is going to end up being the next "main villain," kind of like Ordeith from the Wheel of Time series or the Red Lady from GOT, manipulating the ruler of the main city in the Kingdom into starting a war.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47457774]The alignment system is easy to misuse. The biggest flaw with it is that it uses absolute-sounding terms like "good" and "evil", and implies unavoidable conflict between them.
Good alignments are altruistic. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". It is NOT about being nice, or always helping with every little thing. It's about putting the community first.
Evil alignments are about personal gain. They're the ones who pick to compete in a prisoner's dilemma. It is NOT about killing or burning or raping or enslaving - those are merely tools, used by good and evil alike.
Lawful alignments are about recognizing and following higher authority. It could be a king, or a god, or a moral code, but it's something that they follow. It is NOT about slavishly following every rule there is.
Chaotic alignments are about making your own judgements. It is NOT about blind rebellion.
A CE character, played this way, will always consider betraying their team as an option. But if they have a common goal with the team, that betrayal probably will not happen. If the party is trying to stop someone from destroying the world, the CE character will not betray them - because they need this world, after all, to live on.[/QUOTE]
To me, alignments are more about what you're willing to do.
Good characters will stop someone from dying, even if it means the good character must sacrifice something.
Evil characters will kill people if it means they can gain money or power, and definitely aren't willing to sacrifice that money or power to save a life.
And then Neutral characters won't stop someone from dying if it means sacrificing something, but they won't kill someone just to gain money or power.
That's how I see it at least. And that's why evil characters aren't really good fits for a party, because the minute another party member becomes a liability, they'll get rid of him somehow.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;47457805]When I run D&D games, I don't allow people to play evil characters. In the right group when you guys are all doing this for money, perhaps. But I'd never let a good character be in the same party as an evil character.[/QUOTE]
Then that's your preference, your post really means nothing in this talk :v:
The point being is that it's all about the capabilities of your players. If they're incapable of creating a character that can't mesh under CE or what have you, then they shouldn't roll CE. I've got a group of people I play with, and we've been doing this for years and have come to trust eachother to make characters that usually would be tough to pull off in a party dynamic and these guys do it in spades.
It's just a matter of trust and communication.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;47457849]Then that's your preference, your post really means nothing in this talk :v:
The point being is that it's all about the capabilities of your players. If they're incapable of creating a character that can't mesh under CE or what have you, then they shouldn't roll CE. I've got a group of people I play with, and we've been doing this for years and have come to trust eachother to make characters that usually would be tough to pull off in a party dynamic and these guys do it in spades.
It's just a matter of trust and communication.[/QUOTE]
Problem is, most groups havent been playing with each other for years. Maybe one in a hundred gets to that point of trust and knowing each others limits. My point is, Good characters and evil characters are diametrically opposed. If you're not in a game where you have to roleplay, and it's pure dungeon crawl, then you won't run into that problem, but once you start to roleplay, you'll see problems.
But the real point is that things are not as black and white as you're trying to paint them, and that more often than not that contrast doesn't really exist to that extent.
As a side note, the current gang has been Me, Trooper Guy, Rats, Siberys, Rear Admiral, and more recently Fetching Toaster and Twitzle as well, using Roll20 for all IC stuff and then Mumble for OOC.
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
Also Funk again that comes down to a player competency issue, of course they shouldn't play a CE character if they don't know how to do it in a way that's fun or engaging for the rest of the party + the GM, but that doesn't mean it's by any means undoable. RP is the easy stuff imho.
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
But I mean this is also coming from the guy whos part of a group where each session we'll say "ok sessions pretty much done good work guys" and then stay for like 3 hours after doing arr pee anyways
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;47457945]But the real point is that things are not as black and white as you're trying to paint them, and that more often than not that contrast doesn't really exist to that extent.
As a side note, the current gang has been Me, Trooper Guy, Rats, Siberys, Rear Admiral, and more recently Fetching Toaster and Twitzle as well, using Roll20 for all IC stuff and then Mumble for OOC.
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
Also Funk again that comes down to a player competency issue, of course they shouldn't play a CE character if they don't know how to do it in a way that's fun or engaging for the rest of the party + the GM, but that doesn't mean it's by any means undoable. RP is the easy stuff imho.
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
But I mean this is also coming from the guy whos part of a group where each session we'll say "ok sessions pretty much done good work guys" and then stay for like 3 hours after doing arr pee anyways[/QUOTE]
I agree with you actually, it's totally possible to do a game where you have all that shit in a game together, but you really need to know everyone else. Pretty much most of the "rules" of rping can be negated if you know and trust all the other players. I'm saying, if you haven't been playing with most of your other players for a long time, you really shouldn't have characters who are the opposite of each other, unless you want to run into problems.
Black Tokyo has a feat where you get a combat penis
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
Figured I'd contribute to the discussion
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;47458345]Black Tokyo has a feat where you get a combat penis
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
Figured I'd contribute to the discussion[/QUOTE]
i need this
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Oliolio;47457258]Any alignment, played properly, can be a PC alignment. In a solo game. A CE character has no place in a legitimate party, because if played [I]correctly[/I], the CE character will eventually attempt to backstab the party. It isn't a matter of if, but when. The deliberate choice to play such a character is awful, and you can easily make a NE or LE character who's still a total cunt, but won't eventually attempt to murder the rest of the party.[/QUOTE]
i'm just going to chime in and say that Mirror in our Shadowrun game is pretty clearly chaotic evil.
he's not even considering stabbing you guys in the back, though.
"A lot of posts in the D&D thread, must be an alignment discussion."
[QUOTE=elowin;47458439]i need this
[editline]4th April 2015[/editline]
i'm just going to chime in and say that Mirror in our Shadowrun game is pretty clearly chaotic evil.
he's not even considering stabbing you guys in the back, though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and if he was acting in character, Izak probably would have killed and/or ditched him after the knife crazy stabbing incident; He's a pretty extreme liability. But hey, hardly the biggest suspension of disbelief in that campaign, lol.
what are you talking about our shadowrun escapades are very realistic
I like Chaotic Evil because it doesn't make me feel bad when I smite them.
You know, you can play Chaotic Evil and not kill all the puppies you run across.
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