Space Engineers - Say goodbye to Starmade and Blockade runner. - Games

I'm not opposed to the idea of a setup in Space Engineers like Wire before the expression chip was really popular - just input/output with basic math and sensors.

I like the idea of "early" wire in SE because if you made a laser guided missile in wire you still had to have LOS on your target. Also, it resulted in two hilarious eventualities if you messed up the wiring: 1. The missile spasmodically flew all over OR (my favorite) 2. You made a laser [I]repelled[/I] missile, which was just hilarious

I'm all for wire in SE. I would like the option of coding the IO though, makes it easier for me to manage - but I can live without if people are that pedantic about it. Completely agree with only IO and no magic engine query stuff. Want to interact or get data? Better have a specific input device / button / ect.

can we just have placeable buttons or consoles that have very basic IO abilities, so you can automate things like garage doors?

[QUOTE=paindoc;43176668]I like the idea of "early" wire in SE because if you made a laser guided missile in wire you still had to have LOS on your target. Also, it resulted in two hilarious eventualities if you messed up the wiring: 1. The missile spasmodically flew all over OR (my favorite) 2. You made a laser [I]repelled[/I] missile, which was just hilarious[/QUOTE] The satisfaction of still hitting a target with a laser repelled missile was absolutely great

[QUOTE=Cone;43175219]building should stay as simple as possible, but let you do anything you want with it. that can be done just by having very simple systems, like the new configurable motors, and applying them in creative ways. wiremod goes against that, and would unnecessarily overcomplicate something that up until this point has just been a matter of using the parts you've been given. the things you can build are already only limited by the amount of blocks and your own creative means of applying them. even now there's so many things you can do with the tools provided that a system of soulless arithmetic coding is unnecessary, superfluous, and above all, completely unfun, and not in any way in the spirit of engineering. if you want Wiremod, go play Space Dull Arithmetic Problems instead. this isn't the game for it and it never will be.[/QUOTE] I disagree. Ingenuity doesn't have to come from scraps. I understand your point by saying that there will be more of a challenge if you wish to use only mechanical parts and et cetera, but saying that [quote]soulless arithmetic coding is unnecessary, superfluous, and above all, completely unfun, and not in any way in the spirit of engineering.[/quote] is not only untrue, but entirely the opposite. The very premise of engineering is the ability to solve problems with the spirit of efficiency. That is not an important quip, yet it follows into why your argument is wrong. In order to do anything really complex, you not only would eventually have to have a computer-type system within your creations. If this is not fulfilled, then your statement [quote]the things you can build are already only limited by the amount of blocks and your own creative means of applying them.[/quote] is false. Any type of automation must be done mechanically; which, is possible. But hey, you'd have to spend time planning how do such. [I]Building anything beyond basic ships or simple machines requires some sort of calculation in order to be constructed.[/I] This can done through use of mechanical solutions, which are usually very large and unstable in nature, or it can be done with a PLC through use of algorithms. So a rehash - Large problems require complex solutions. The concept of formulating such solutions efficiently is the heart of engineering. Although, I have to ask: If you can do anything through basic tools and machines, why would you [I]care[/I] if any type of PLC is implemented? You could just ignore it and be the mechanical God you are. [QUOTE=woolio1;43175221]Again, suggesting a code block-based visual programming system like Lego's Mindstorms SDK. Because an I/O-centric automation system would be awesome, and not overpowered. I see so much talk of "Oh, we shouldn't have Wiremod because it ruins the game", but does that mean we don't want buttons that can run commands, like locking down doors or decoupling landing gears? Do we want to do all those things manually, with no finer control? Do we not want drones that we can fly-by-wire to scout enemy ships? Sure, something like E2 where you have to learn an entire scripting language that can hack the universe is a bit excessive, but there are a lot of features in Wiremod that could work really well in SE, especially for the purposes of actually running a functioning spaceship. It's not going to elevate it above space Lego, but even Lego had a programming interface.[/QUOTE] Sure, but this kind of runs into my point of dumbing down. You may disagree, but this is limiting the potential of a PLC in order that people can solve algorithms with ease. In a perfect system, there would be no tradeoff, but I've yet to see this happen in my experience with programming languages. Each system (Text or visual) has specific properties that appeal to different crowds. I think the option to support a text-based language within the game would work the best if it also included a basic visual language as an alternative. It wouldn't be like E2 at all. The closest counterpart I could see in Gmod would be something like CPU or GPU. [editline]13th December 2013[/editline] I honestly don't see why people are upset about complex systems because it takes the fun out. Just ignore it. The possibilities will go on without you.

[QUOTE=paindoc;43176668]I like the idea of "early" wire in SE because if you made a laser guided missile in wire you [B]still had to have LOS on your target.[/B] Also, it resulted in two hilarious eventualities if you messed up the wiring: 1. The missile spasmodically flew all over OR (my favorite) 2. You made a laser [I]repelled[/I] missile, which was just hilarious[/QUOTE] This is exactly what SpaceWire should be. Using ingenuity, mechanical or electrical, to solve complex problems. No target finders that hand you the absolute positions of every player on the server. If you want to build a seeker missile you have to kludge a bundle of sensors to estimate your target's direction of travel. I think limiting the capabilities of sensors so that nobody can build omnipotent killbots is the most important way to address non-wirers complaints. This way, you could be the most skilled electrical/software engineer on the planet and your only advantage amounts to gadgets. So here's my questions: - If you don't want to be able to automate parts of your ship because you are above "Dull arithmetic coding" why not use systems other people developed? Why not just avoid using it entirely and show us the power of mechanics? - I've never met a person that knows how to use moderate-advanced Wire that didn't like it in Garry's Mod. We can implement it in SE using lessons from Wire and avoid superfluous complexity. So if it's simple and intuitive in Space Engineers, why oppose it? It can only improve gameplay. Everything else is the same, there's just one more brick in the lego box that expands the possibilities even more. - On Gmod combat servers, a well-designed tank can beat crazy wire contraptions if your design is better. And that was with omniscient targeting computers. Is your worry that other people will have useful ship gadgets but you won't? - What if we included devices that didn't require [I]any[/I] wiring or algorithmic thinking to balance it out for non-wirers? A radar detector that blinks a light in the direction of radar? IR chaffs that link to a keyboard button? What about action groups? I guess my problem is that I can't understand [I]why[/I] you wouldn't want to wire if you knew how. If it's easy and it doesn't give you magic powers, is there any reason other than being a purist or a luddite to oppose it?

Yeah, I thought it was implied that it wouldn't be omnipotent. It would be based on I/O, not God-Data [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] Also note that gmod e2/cpu is one of the main reasons the game has been alive so long. Text-based programming would be a big plus though.

[QUOTE=One Ear Ninja;43177551]Yeah, I thought it was implied that it wouldn't be omnipotent. It would be based on I/O, not God-Data [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] Also note that gmod e2/cpu is one of the main reasons the game has been alive so long. Text-based programming would be a big plus though.[/QUOTE] Sorry I wasn't all that clear, I was trying to agree with you in different words. It seems like a lot of non-wirey people don't see the connection between text-based programming and logic gates, as though they are two completely distinct things.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;43174950]"go wire mod or you're dumb" really[/QUOTE] Gross and intentional misinterpretation: the game: part 2: farming for zings Don't like it? Don't use it. I'd like it, because I'd use it.

Wire, more specifically E2, made Gmod contraptions online about nothing more than who's the better coder. If any sort of wire system is implemented, it should be much more limited, especially in terms of target tracking/player location (since wire had an omniscient tracking of targets)

[QUOTE=Cone;43175219]building should stay as simple as possible, but let you do anything you want with it. that can be done just by having very simple systems, like the new configurable motors, and applying them in creative ways. wiremod goes against that, and would unnecessarily overcomplicate something that up until this point has just been a matter of using the parts you've been given. the things you can build are already only limited by the amount of blocks and your own creative means of applying them. even now there's so many things you can do with the tools provided that a system of soulless arithmetic coding is unnecessary, superfluous, and above all, completely unfun, and not in any way in the spirit of engineering. if you want Wiremod, go play Space Dull Arithmetic Problems instead. this isn't the game for it and it never will be.[/QUOTE] Even though I'm partially opposed to stuff like E2 because I can't code, doing everything with motors and blocks is fucking stupid, imagine having an entire room filled with gears and sliders and shit, just to mimic the functionality of a single AND gate. It's like redstone in minecraft, the simplest shit takes up wayyy too much space, and if you want to make something more complex (like I dunno, a calculator), you won't even be able to see the whole thing because of the game's relatively low draw distance.

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;43178674]Even though I'm partially opposed to stuff like E2 because I can't code, doing everything with motors and blocks is fucking stupid, imagine having an entire room filled with gears and sliders and shit, just to mimic the functionality of a single AND gate. It's like redstone in minecraft, the simplest shit takes up wayyy too much space, and if you want to make something more complex (like I dunno, a calculator), you won't even be able to see the whole thing because of the game's relatively low draw distance.[/QUOTE] Redpower's logic set. Wasn't huge at all and retained the cool "circuit board" look. Actually that's what I want to be implemented in SE, only maybe not with in-game models, more like digital simulation on a ship terminal/tool terminal (someone posted a link to some logic simulator, kinda like that) [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=One Ear Ninja;43176835] I honestly don't see why people are upset about complex systems because it takes the fun out. Just ignore it. The possibilities will go on without you.[/QUOTE] Simply because I want to be able to at least theoretically reproduce things that people built. E2 defies that with code. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] Also we had a similar discussion in the KSP thread :v:

Wire mod oversaturated gmod so badly it was actually 1000 times more impressive to see someone make something like a car or a robot that used no wire at all wire is interesting, but it's so much more interesting to watch someone do without it. essentially wire killed mechanic construction in gmod because nobody bothered doing it also gotta remember that wire was essentially the most enormous player excluding mod in gaming if you were on a server and everyone was using wire, and you DIDN'T know how to use wire, you felt like a caveman oh also wire essentially kills ANY aspect of "learning by copying" if someone has made some sort of mechanical contraption, it's incredibly easy to recreate it and learn for yourself how it works. if someone has made some sort of wire contraption, if you're not familiar with computer programming in some of the more complex stuff, you're FUCKED.

so how bout that space engineers?

[QUOTE=Tmaxx;43178948]so how bout that space engineers?[/QUOTE] Space Electrical Engineers Also, I'd better make peace with this £12. You guys are making me way too excited for this game. I really enjoyed playing Starmade on Darth Veger's server, seeing people's ginormous constructions and co-operating against pirates, but the weird system for building reactors and weapons (the laser gets better in [i]every way[/i] the more blocks you add?!) were a bit of a turnoff. I realise this doesn't have multiplayer, gun blocks or even sounds yet, but to be honest it already looks more promising. The only thing I want to ask is, how is repair in this game? Do you have to hunt down the missing blocks as usual, or is there more room for mechanising it?

[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;43179577]Space Electrical Engineers Also, I'd better make peace with this £12. You guys are making me way too excited for this game. I really enjoyed playing Starmade on Darth Veger's server, seeing people's ginormous constructions and co-operating against pirates, but the weird system for building reactors and weapons (the laser gets better in [i]every way[/i] the more blocks you add?!) were a bit of a turnoff. I realise this doesn't have multiplayer, gun blocks or even sounds yet, but to be honest it already looks more promising. The only thing I want to ask is, how is repair in this game? Do you have to hunt down the missing blocks as usual, or is there more room for mechanising it?[/QUOTE] i think you'll have to use a welding tool on the damaged block and that'll fix it, though i'm not sure if you also need to have materials as well. i'd be surprised if there wasn't an automated version of the welder at some point, but i wouldn't expect that until much later in the game's development.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;43178913]Wire mod oversaturated gmod so badly it was actually 1000 times more impressive to see someone make something like a car or a robot that used no wire at all wire is interesting, but it's so much more interesting to watch someone do without it. essentially wire killed mechanic construction in gmod because nobody bothered doing it also gotta remember that wire was essentially the most enormous player excluding mod in gaming if you were on a server and everyone was using wire, and you DIDN'T know how to use wire, you felt like a caveman oh also wire essentially kills ANY aspect of "learning by copying" if someone has made some sort of mechanical contraption, it's incredibly easy to recreate it and learn for yourself how it works. if someone has made some sort of wire contraption, if you're not familiar with computer programming in some of the more complex stuff, you're FUCKED.[/QUOTE] You're.. still not grasping the concept. Mechanics severely limit the possibilities of creating something within a reasonable fashion. It's an exchange of a bit of user-friendly-ness for a tiny bit of tangential learning and a little intelligence. But honestly, that's probably why you're complaining. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] Ironically, you're talking about excluding a playerbase As an argument to alienate a playerbase

[QUOTE=One Ear Ninja;43179797]You're.. still not grasping the concept. Mechanics severely limit the possibilities of creating something within a reasonable fashion. It's an exchange of a bit of user-friendly-ness for a tiny bit of tangential learning and a little intelligence. But honestly, that's probably why you're complaining.[/QUOTE] you're only further confirming what he said. I don't know about other people, but I don't think people should sit down and learn wiring just to fit in with everyone else who does it. cloak raider said it perfectly, those who doesn't know wire will feel like cavemen which is absolutely not an enjoyable experience.

It took me a day to learn wiremod. Highschool algebra is literally all you need

[QUOTE=One Ear Ninja;43179823]It took me a day to learn wiremod. Highschool algebra is literally all you need[/QUOTE] a single day to learn all of wiremod? that's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? and even if it did take you a single day, do you really think that everyone are capable of learning it that fast or are willing to learn? what about those who don't know much about maths, algebra or electrical engineering? should they be left out and feel like cavemen because they're unable to fully grasp wiring?

I took a math course in highschool. It's not that hard, guys. If you're talking about alienating an entire potential community by saying people who aren't in highschool or dropped out of highschool would feel left out, I think that's kind of a shallow argument.

When you say "learning wiremod" are we talking the very simple gates, or complex E2 tasks that involve a fair amount of coding to create automated AI driven murder machines that autonomously patrol or whatnot? Because the comparison I would use is the fact that I reckon anyone could play DF in two hours with a basic crash course, but there are nuances and tricks that take huge amounts of experience to know. I really need to get Space Engineers anyway, though I need to arrange christmas presents and alcohol budget too...

[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;43179577]Space Electrical Engineers Also, I'd better make peace with this £12. You guys are making me way too excited for this game. I really enjoyed playing Starmade on Darth Veger's server, seeing people's ginormous constructions and co-operating against pirates, but the weird system for building reactors and weapons (the laser gets better in [i]every way[/i] the more blocks you add?!) were a bit of a turnoff. I realise this doesn't have multiplayer, gun blocks or [B]even sounds yet[/B], but to be honest it already looks more promising. The only thing I want to ask is, how is repair in this game? Do you have to hunt down the missing blocks as usual, or is there more room for mechanising it?[/QUOTE] Hey wait a minute, I just realised that the drills and the rifle are the only things in the game to have sound. How have I not noticed until now :v:.

can't we just have something like in-game AI systems like X3 has instead of making our own?

[QUOTE=One Ear Ninja;43179845]I took a math course in highschool. It's not that hard, guys. If you're talking about alienating an entire potential community by saying people who aren't in highschool or dropped out of highschool would feel left out, I think that's kind of a shallow argument.[/QUOTE] you're really only seeing this from one perspective currently, and that is yours. according to you, everyone can fully grasp and learn wire within a short timespan. I couldn't, and I never managed to get into it even after playing gmod for several years. and I'm sure there is a decent amount of others who never managed to properly get into wiremod either. the wire community won't be alienated really. of course, you can't make all those cool things you could make in garrysmod but this is something far different. this isn't a sandbox game on the same level as garrysmod, this is a sandbox survival set in space. wiring would make sense somewhere, but having a full blown wiremod system for space engineers doesn't seem feasible for me. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Terminutter;43179857]When you say "learning wiremod" are we talking the very simple gates, or complex E2 tasks that involve a fair amount of coding to create automated AI driven murder machines that autonomously patrol or whatnot? Because the comparison I would use is the fact that I reckon anyone could play DF in two hours with a basic crash course, but there are nuances and tricks that take huge amounts of experience to know. I really need to get Space Engineers anyway, though I need to arrange christmas presents and alcohol budget too...[/QUOTE] this is something to bear in mind as well. I'm sure most people out there can learn basic gates as terminutter said, and I did that too, but I never managed to grasp the more advanced things in wiremod which made me feel like a caveman because I was unable to follow what everyone else was doing with the mod.

Yeah, I can do basic gates, and think that a basic system like that would probably work - things like closing all of your hanger doors or whatnot from buttons in the ship, but I could never be bothered to learn E2 stuff, it just didn't interest me, and made me feel a bit left out of Gmod when I played it. I wouldn't really want something that in depth in a game.

[QUOTE=PredGD;43179873]you're really only seeing this from one perspective currently, and that is yours. according to you, everyone can fully grasp and learn wire within a short timespan. I couldn't, and I never managed to get into it even after playing gmod for several years. and I'm sure there is a decent amount of others who never managed to properly get into wiremod either. the wire community won't be alienated really. of course, you can't make all those cool things you could make in garrysmod but this is something far different. this isn't a sandbox game on the same level as garrysmod, this is a sandbox survival set in space. wiring would make sense somewhere, but having a full blown wiremod system for space engineers doesn't seem feasible for me. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] this is something to bear in mind as well. I'm sure most people out there can learn basic gates as terminutter said, and I did that too, but I never managed to grasp the more advanced things in wiremod which made me feel like a caveman because I was unable to follow what everyone else was doing with the mod.[/QUOTE] You're also seeing this from a fairly shallow viewpoint. Wire is pretty much the main reason Gmod is alive and kicking the way it is. I know what you're trying to say about the learning curve, but that's dumbing the game down for people who cannot or are not willing to dedicate time to making something work. You're talking about you and others like you. It's honestly a kind of selfish viewpoint; it's like saying "I don't know how to do something, so nobody else should be able to either."

I honestly think the issue here is that wire had to much complexity to it and not enough beginner-friendliness to anyone who was new to the subject. If there was a similar system for space engineers it should be more like the mindstorms form of programming like woolio suggested would be good because it would allow for versatility while still being simple to learn and understand. Not to mention that it would rely on sensors created by the player so it wouldn't be some omnipotent system that would be able to find players from across the map. I have to admit that I was also alienated from gmod because of wire mod and E2, but I think that if space engineers has a wiring system or computer system of some kind, so long as it is easy to understand, it would be nothing but beneficial to the game in terms of increasing the complexity and usefulness of spaceship designs.

Although it's generally agreed that a PLC like Gmod CPU would work. It is a strictly I/O system with a programming style that could either be visual or text-based.