[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42767257]There's a massive difference between simple dragging and taking advantage of the system to ensure your hits impact nigh-instantly.
If you're staring at the fucking ground when you start your swing, then you should choke on a million dicks.
I have no issue with people dragging as long as they aren't taking it to absurd levels.[/QUOTE]
It isnt absurd though, those attacks are extremely predictable and the people who do them tend to spam them. Don't blame them because you aren't on your toes ready to parry instantly after striking.
I play against people who use those tactics constantly and they are easily within blocking means, or everyone would use the look down to instantly kill everyone else, which obviously isn't the case because we have people who play competitive and have very long fights even with these mechanics in play.
I will say the same thing I said about feinting, people complain about these things in chat but they never actually attempt to solve their problem. It is like when they see a feint their mind instantly shuts down and they give up.
So go to a duel server and fight people who do the look downs constantly, and eventually you will be able to block them every time. It is a skill based game and you have to actively learn how to counter things such as feinting and look down overheads.
[QUOTE=1chains1;42767739]It isnt absurd though, those attacks are extremely predictable and the people who do them tend to spam them. Don't blame them because you aren't on your toes ready to parry instantly after striking.
I play against people who use those tactics constantly and they are easily within blocking means, or everyone would use the look down to instantly kill everyone else, which obviously isn't the case because we have people who play competitive and have very long fights even with these mechanics in play.
I will say the same thing I said about feinting, people complain about these things in chat but they never actually attempt to solve their problem. It is like when they see a feint their mind instantly shuts down and they give up.
So go to a duel server and fight people who do the look downs constantly, and eventually you will be able to block them every time. It is a skill based game and you have to actively learn how to counter things such as feinting and look down overheads.[/QUOTE]
I, personally, cannot parry attacks which I literally cannot [I]see[/I]. Maybe it's different for you, but if I get hit with zero visual cue in a game that centres around reflexes, I'm calling bullshit.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42767800]I, personally, cannot parry attacks which I literally cannot [I]see[/I]. Maybe it's different for you, but if I get hit with zero visual cue in a game that centres around reflexes, I'm calling bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Except there are visual cues and sounds that play, to me it just seems like you're giving up without even trying to figure out how to counter them. Have you honestly gone into a server with the mindset of learning to fight feints or these overheads? Or do you just run around in game and when a better player kills you with a well known skill you just come on here and rant about it?
[QUOTE=1chains1;42767854]Except there are visual cues and sounds that play, to me it just seems like you're giving up without even trying to figure out how to counter them. Have you honestly gone into a server with the mindset of learning to fight feints or these overheads? Or do you just run around in game and when a better player kills you with a well known skill you just come on here and rant about it?[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with people being better than me and killing me with intended game mechanics. This ridiculous whirlwind shit [I]is not[/I] intended.
It's a bastard child result of the dev's attempt to introduce swing manipulation for the purpose of making combat more interesting.
If the devs had intended this to be abused to such an extent, they would not have taken steps to get rid of it in DW.
[QUOTE=Reds;42763029]I don't know about mousedragging, but I think I've made my opinion on feints clear.
"it doesn't bother me so the problem doesn't exist" is a terrible argument.
[editline]5th November 2013[/editline]
"guys how a dev feels about the game you're playing particularly when you're [I]exploiting and ruining the balance they built the game around[/I] is irrelevant who told these guys they were allowed to have an opinion on how the game works"[/QUOTE]
Devs are almost always some of the least qualified people to make balance decisions about their games. There are rare cases where the devs actually play their game competitively and understand how it works, but 99% of the time they make awful decisions.
Between working on a few games and mods, that's almost always true. In some strange twist of fate, game designers usually have no objectivity whatsoever. You get a warped insular perspective on your own work, which is why feedback and testing from the target demographic is absolutely required almost all of the time.
Devs are big picture people and have a propensity to lose sight of and glaze over a lot of the small details that make the game special.
Me and my friends have been playing deadliest warrior as one of our go-to games while we are on skype recently. Really enjoying Viking and Spartan, but there are some serious balance issues still.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9AxtMQUBKk[/media]
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42766482]Feinting is not an exploit, but mouse-drag and lookdown-overheads certainly are. If you understand the mechanic it's pretty obvious that those who know how to abuse it (aka mouse-dragging) have a leg up on anyone who doesn't. Can they actually fight you if you do it and they don't? Of course, but it puts them at a significant disadvantage.[/QUOTE]
What's the difference between a slow mouse-drag and a feint? A fast-drag and a feint?
What's the difference between looking-down for your overheads and standing to the far left of someone so that when you horizontally swing from the right your weapon hits them the second it finishes its wind-up?
There ISN'T one. They all require you to parry at the correct moment. You as the player are injecting skill into your decisions and are manipulating the positioning & timing of your weapons to get the edge on other players. In this sense you are "exploiting" but you aren't "ruining the balance" you are taking advantage of how Chivalry is coded. This adds a solid dimension to the game; how could you possibly call it anything but a system that maintains a higher skill-ceiling.
Honestly folks, the fact that some you are absolutely certain that you, as a player, have absolutely no chance to deal with these two-bit maneuvers is proof enough that you don't have an experienced enough opinion on matter and that you still have MUCH to learn.
And for all of you calling it "un-intended bullshit" please visit a real server and find a master to duel. You would probably uninstall the game on the spot.
imo an unintended fature/bug in the code requiring skill to make a difference is still a bug/unintended feature
i personally wouldn't say they add depth to the game, as any skilled opponent will shoot you down as soon as you utilize them. but not everybody has that ability, and not everybody is quick to jump on the train. they've mostly ironed it out in DW, which is nice.
so far i've had a much better and more fun time not having to worry about superspeed max damage overheads, and have found that players and fights in general are much more fun as a result
though i've never really cared one way or the other, i like that they're somewhat gone.
Who said it was an unintended feature or bug?
Not everyone is as practiced? Of course. This thread is evidence enough.
Personally, I don't care if it's an exploit or not.
Every time I encountered a player doing that looking down insta-hit thing other players on the server were quick on vote kicking that player because it was annoying as hell, so it didn't affect games I've played.
[QUOTE=ghosevil;42771088]Who said it was an unintended feature or bug?
Not everyone is as practiced? Of course. This thread is evidence enough.[/QUOTE]
Your entire posts can be boiled down to "lol scrubs learn 2 play".
[editline]6th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=ghosevil;42770861]This adds a solid dimension to the game; how could you possibly call it anything but a system that maintains a higher skill-ceiling.
Honestly folks, the fact that some you are absolutely certain that you, as a player, have absolutely no chance to deal with these two-bit maneuvers is proof enough that you don't have an experienced enough opinion on matter and that you still have MUCH to learn.
And for all of you calling it "un-intended bullshit" please visit a real server and find a master to duel. You would probably uninstall the game on the spot.[/QUOTE]
I mean holy shit could you get any more pretentious and elitist.
Hey, I'm sorry to interrupt this discussion/argument about whether exploits are balanced or not, I was wondering if Deadliest Warrior would be a worthwhile purchase for me.
I mean, I liked Chivalry, but man oh man do I suck at it. And I've played for a while.
Just wondering if I should wait for the beta to end and things to balance out or jump on it while it's fresh out of the oven. Er, still in the oven?
[QUOTE=ghosevil;42770861]What's the difference between a slow mouse-drag and a feint? A fast-drag and a feint?
What's the difference between looking-down for your overheads and standing to the far left of someone so that when you horizontally swing from the right your weapon hits them the second it finishes its wind-up?
There ISN'T one. They all require you to parry at the correct moment. You as the player are injecting skill into your decisions and are manipulating the positioning & timing of your weapons to get the edge on other players. In this sense you are "exploiting" but you aren't "ruining the balance" you are taking advantage of how Chivalry is coded. This adds a solid dimension to the game; how could you possibly call it anything but a system that maintains a higher skill-ceiling.
Honestly folks, the fact that some you are absolutely certain that you, as a player, have absolutely no chance to deal with these two-bit maneuvers is proof enough that you don't have an experienced enough opinion on matter and that you still have MUCH to learn.
And for all of you calling it "un-intended bullshit" please visit a real server and find a master to duel. You would probably uninstall the game on the spot.[/QUOTE]
So your version of using an exploit/bug to add depth to Chivalry is "turn yourself further one way or the other to extend/shorten the swing". You want to know why no one in real life would ever turn right while they swung their weapon left? They would do nearly no damage. This is simple physics. Other games, like Mount & Blade, as well as Chivalry's expansion/sequel, both make an effort to address this. Why? Because it is completely unintuitive and literally goes against the laws of physics.
And what does it add to the game? A small amount of timing. What does it take away? Any pretense of balance between the weapons in this game. I'm sorry but weapon balance is far more important to me than a rather small increase to the skill cap. There are other ways to enhance fights, like off-balance strikes and using heavy weapons to intentionally attack blocks, that could be coded in and used to make things more interesting.
Hitting a guy at the very beginning of my swing and doing full damage is completely non-sensical.
More than lookdown overheads, which are pretty fine, I've once met a vanguard with a zweihander looking down while crouched and swinging at people diagonally. Now that was unexpected and got me surprised. The swing pretty much started inside your head or guts if he did it right.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42773492]So your version of using an exploit/bug to add depth to Chivalry is "turn yourself further one way or the other to extend/shorten the swing". You want to know why no one in real life would ever turn right while they swung their weapon left? They would do nearly no damage. This is simple physics. Other games, like Mount & Blade, as well as Chivalry's expansion/sequel, both make an effort to address this. Why? Because it is completely unintuitive and literally goes against the laws of physics.
And what does it add to the game? A small amount of timing. What does it take away? Any pretense of balance between the weapons in this game. I'm sorry but weapon balance is far more important to me than a rather small increase to the skill cap. There are other ways to enhance fights, like off-balance strikes and using heavy weapons to intentionally attack blocks, that could be coded in and used to make things more interesting.
Hitting a guy at the very beginning of my swing and doing full damage is completely non-sensical.[/QUOTE]
(imo) you can't just call mouse dragging an exploit
as mentioned before, mouse dragging (swing manipulation, real time swings, swing acceleration and deceleration) is very simply an intended mechanic in the game
the main, actual exploits I can think of with the (intended) mouse dragging mechanic are the various legitimate instant lookdown overheads - not just the sped up ones, I'm talking stuff like the halberd's lower handle end trace triggering damage instantly after windup as it pokes out ever so slightly
and on the other end of the spectrum, there's a few animation exploits where you can really fudge fights with nigh-invisible actions
shit like, oh wow, he slowed his swing and because I was jumpy I parried way too early is on the same level as oh wow, he purposefully missed to hit me with the second combo
stuff goes into exploit territory at the extremes - the exploits - of mouse dragging
it looks like DW made an attempt to nerf the effectiveness of such extremes with damage falloff, but it sounds like they've taken it a little to heavy and hurt the non-extreme uses of mouse dragging
on mouse dragging as a whole - I honestly feel its an extremely important mechanic in that it really makes the weapons not just the simple point and click, short lived bullet melee weapons of nearly all other FPS games
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42773492]So your version of using an exploit/bug to add depth to Chivalry is "turn yourself further one way or the other to extend/shorten the swing". You want to know why no one in real life would ever turn right while they swung their weapon left? They would do nearly no damage. This is simple physics. Other games, like Mount & Blade, as well as Chivalry's expansion/sequel, both make an effort to address this. Why? Because it is completely unintuitive and literally goes against the laws of physics.
And what does it add to the game? A small amount of timing. What does it take away? Any pretense of balance between the weapons in this game. I'm sorry but weapon balance is far more important to me than a rather small increase to the skill cap. There are other ways to enhance fights, like off-balance strikes and using heavy weapons to intentionally attack blocks, that could be coded in and used to make things more interesting.
Hitting a guy at the very beginning of my swing and doing full damage is completely non-sensical.[/QUOTE]
This game isn't trying to be the ARMA of first-person slashers, though. You can't peck at the real-life physics behind the game design without getting fed up with things like getting shot square in the eye & regenerating, clubbing someone's foot until they die, dragging a dagger across someone's chest when they are in platemail and expecting to inflict any pain, thrusting with a zwei-hander while standing still, etc.
It is what it is.
And how exactly is the weapon balanced ruined? The most notorious example of the overhead is with the zwei-hander and that shit is still VERY slow compared to the less damaging claymore.
[QUOTE=ghosevil;42775770]This game isn't trying to be the ARMA of first-person slashers, though. You can't peck at the real-life physics behind the game design without getting fed up with things like getting shot square in the eye & regenerating, clubbing someone's foot until they die, dragging a dagger across someone's chest when they are in platemail and expecting to inflict any pain, thrusting with a zwei-hander while standing still, etc.
It is what it is.
And how exactly is the weapon balanced ruined? The most notorious example of the overhead is with the zwei-hander and that shit is still VERY slow compared to the less damaging claymore.[/QUOTE]
Hard hitting weapons are balanced by making them slow. If you use an exploit to speed those weapons up, you're fucking with the balance.
The prerequisites for performing these "exploits" involve footwork (keeping the target point-blank) and the target's inability to parry them/point a shield in their general direction.. You trade accuracy and the possibility to follow up with a combo for a cheap swing.
Throw in a feint and you've got something completely unfair and unbalanced?
I like the Zwei hander
Just played this game for the first time in months. Holy hell, this game is dead to me now. Basically they released a patch containing bad bugs and shitty exploits and are just leaving it to work on that crap Spike TV sequel. Shame, I used to love Chivalry :(
[QUOTE=kirderf;42777908]Just played this game for the first time in months. Holy hell, this game is dead to me now. Basically the released a patch containing bad bugs and shitty exploits and are just leaving it to work on that crap Spike TV sequel. Shame, I used to love Chivalry :([/QUOTE]
Or you could apply logic and realize that they are adding the fixes when they release DW?
[QUOTE=ghosevil;42770861]What's the difference between a slow mouse-drag and a feint? A fast-drag and a feint?
What's the difference between looking-down for your overheads and standing to the far left of someone so that when you horizontally swing from the right your weapon hits them the second it finishes its wind-up?
There ISN'T one. They all require you to parry at the correct moment. You as the player are injecting skill into your decisions and are manipulating the positioning & timing of your weapons to get the edge on other players. In this sense you are "exploiting" but you aren't "ruining the balance" you are taking advantage of how Chivalry is coded. This adds a solid dimension to the game; how could you possibly call it anything but a system that maintains a higher skill-ceiling.
Honestly folks, the fact that some you are absolutely certain that you, as a player, have absolutely no chance to deal with these two-bit maneuvers is proof enough that you don't have an experienced enough opinion on matter and that you still have MUCH to learn.
And for all of you calling it "un-intended bullshit" please visit a real server and find a master to duel. You would probably uninstall the game on the spot.[/QUOTE]
Currently at 233 hours in chivalry. Agree 100%
I know there are people with far more, but in my experience, all of these tactics are counterable and if you go on a good duel server you will find that whether you use them or not you will have a very hard time. They are not unfair.
[QUOTE=1chains1;42777926]Or you could apply logic and realize that they are adding the fixes when they release DW?[/QUOTE]
I fuckin' hope so.
Best god damn class build in Deadliest Warrior is Pirate with Blunderbuss and Flaming Rum, sure it may seemingly not have any melee options but who needs weapons when you've´you manly rum powered flamings cannons of death, your trusty fisticuffs!
[t]http://tornbanner.com/forums/download/file.php?id=2822[/t]
I had a feeling shields were bigger than they looked
[QUOTE=Altimor;42805769][t]http://tornbanner.com/forums/download/file.php?id=2822[/t]
I had a feeling shields were bigger than they looked[/QUOTE]
I suppose that's necessary though. In real life you can position a shield quite accurately to match with the positioning of the attack. In chivalry you just hold right mouse and he holds it up.
Although it feels kind of cheap, I can't think of a way they could do shields without a larger than visible hitbox because otherwide you could easily just poke them in the legs.
Goes to show though, looking at the left picture, hitting someone with a throwing weapon when their shield side is facing you is going to be very unlikely.
btw, is this a command I can use?
IMO, the shield should be a little bit smaller, so that it's still easy to block things with but also making it easier for the attacker to bypass it with side swings.
[QUOTE=Jallen;42806937]I suppose that's necessary though. In real life you can position a shield quite accurately to match with the positioning of the attack. In chivalry you just hold right mouse and he holds it up.
Although it feels kind of cheap, I can't think of a way they could do shields without a larger than visible hitbox because otherwide you could easily just poke them in the legs.
Goes to show though, looking at the left picture, hitting someone with a throwing weapon when their shield side is facing you is going to be very unlikely.
btw, is this a command I can use?[/QUOTE]
"show collision" in a local server
[QUOTE=Jack Trades;42806972]IMO, the shield should be a little bit smaller, so that it's still easy to block things with but also making it easier for the attacker to bypass it with side swings.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I think that would be better.
The spartan shield in deadliest warrior is just ridiculous. I dread to think how big that thing's hitbox is.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
